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Is Star Citizen 'Pay To Win' or 'Pay To Advance'?

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  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    frostymug said:
    I knew I was missing the point. It's hard not to when it moves so fast.

    Just so I know I got it this time, what you're saying is that it isn't P2W if you only swear fealty to someone who already paid to win. Did I hit it this time?
    Nope, still missing it... The setup of organizations, either the ones who paid and have fleets and the ones who will play and earn their fleets (and both), makes it so players have the opportunity to play with this ships without having to earn in-game/put up money to get them, within the nature of Orgs and their fleets. (the game already way more ships than it does players, much more will it be once orgs start beefing up their fleets in-game over time)

    You can selectively pick this and that to dismiss my point, but this provides one alternative to achieve the same type of gameplay/tier of content, without actually owning higher tier ships.
    So someone still went the pay2win route and bought a whole bunch of ships. Just because they are letting others on board to help them out doesn't change the fact they bought them with real money
    frostymug
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    <snip> and afford to continue to operate with 400+ employees in offices around the world?  <snip>
     <snip>

    One other thing to note is that the development team pre-release is bigger than the development team post-release (especially with SQ42 on the mix), would be expectable redundant staff to be laid off even if the dev keeps ongoing (as it happened with ED).
    I think this is a more pertinent question and one that we don't know the answer to. 

    Once the game is "fully delivered" then maybe everyone but the staff needed to keep the game running may be let go. Under somebodies direction. With CR, ER etc. pulling back.

    Or some staff might remain to produce new story stuff which will be sold as DLC. Again under somebodies direction

    Or maybe the company will set about making "Romans in Space" or whatever - not something see happening however. SC - to me - comes across as a "labour of love". The type of project that - once complete - can leave you feeling somewhat "burnt out".

    Maybe CR might want to use the facilities and software developed to - who knows - produce a film or TV series. Which would certainly promote the game, probably bringing people in to play it.

    Or he and others involved may simply want to take a break; recharge.

    So its all just speculation. And - unlike EA, Activision, Zenimax etc. it may not be a case of "on to the next game". 

    CR has laid out his vision; time will tell whether the game pans out that way. Until it launches and is up and running though we won't know.
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,846
    Kefo said:
    So someone still went the pay2win route and bought a whole bunch of ships. Just because they are letting others on board to help them out doesn't change the fact they bought them with real money
    Not only boarding, actually spawning and flying around with a ship. For some reason organizations have fleets, it will be based on a number of ships the members of the organization (likely permissions/ranks) will be able to spawn. Just like it would be an MMO with say, a Guild Stable.

    The point is again, that Organization play, within the reality of fleets will allow players to play through the same type of gameplay/tier of content without actually owning the higher tier ships. And this is one big thing 

    gervaise1 said:
    I think this is a more pertinent question and one that we don't know the answer to. 

    Once the game is "fully delivered" then maybe everyone but the staff needed to keep the game running may be let go. Under somebodies direction. With CR, ER etc. pulling back.

    Or some staff might remain to produce new story stuff which will be sold as DLC. Again under somebodies direction

    Or maybe the company will set about making "Romans in Space" or whatever - not something see happening however. SC - to me - comes across as a "labour of love". The type of project that - once complete - can leave you feeling somewhat "burnt out".

    Maybe CR might want to use the facilities and software developed to - who knows - produce a film or TV series. Which would certainly promote the game, probably bringing people in to play it.

    Or he and others involved may simply want to take a break; recharge.

    So its all just speculation. And - unlike EA, Activision, Zenimax etc. it may not be a case of "on to the next game". 

    CR has laid out his vision; time will tell whether the game pans out that way. Until it launches and is up and running though we won't know.
    The only thing I think would avoid them from lay off part of their workforce at release, is SQ42's Sequel that. The release of the game could mean at least for a while relax for some time from SC work (side of maintenance and content updates) and work on SQ42's sequel.  Time will tell.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    So someone still went the pay2win route and bought a whole bunch of ships. Just because they are letting others on board to help them out doesn't change the fact they bought them with real money
    Not only boarding, actually spawning and flying around with a ship. For some reason organizations have fleets, it will be based on a number of ships the members of the organization (likely permissions/ranks) will be able to spawn. Just like it would be an MMO with say, a Guild Stable.

    The point is again, that Organization play, within the reality of fleets will allow players to play through the same type of gameplay/tier of content without actually owning the higher tier ships. And this is one big thing.
    That's great that other players will be able to play the same tier of content without having to grind but that's still pay2win. You've just shifted the argument from the individual to the organization in order to make it sound more appealing by saying more people get to do the things they want to do without a potentially tedious grind.

    Still doesn't change the fact someone(s) dropped potentially thousands of dollars on ships before the game even released and now their org has a significant advantage over others.
    bwwianakiev
  • frostymugfrostymug Member RarePosts: 645
    Kefo said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    So someone still went the pay2win route and bought a whole bunch of ships. Just because they are letting others on board to help them out doesn't change the fact they bought them with real money
    Not only boarding, actually spawning and flying around with a ship. For some reason organizations have fleets, it will be based on a number of ships the members of the organization (likely permissions/ranks) will be able to spawn. Just like it would be an MMO with say, a Guild Stable.

    The point is again, that Organization play, within the reality of fleets will allow players to play through the same type of gameplay/tier of content without actually owning the higher tier ships. And this is one big thing.
    That's great that other players will be able to play the same tier of content without having to grind but that's still pay2win. You've just shifted the argument from the individual to the organization in order to make it sound more appealing by saying more people get to do the things they want to do without a potentially tedious grind.

    Still doesn't change the fact someone(s) dropped potentially thousands of dollars on ships before the game even released and now their org has a significant advantage over others.
    Don't break the circle!
  • bwwianakievbwwianakiev Member UncommonPosts: 119
    Talonsin said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    Point is, anything Chris says is subject to change before the final launch of the game.  Another point to consider is: How will the studio make money after the game is launched?  If there is no subscription and buying bigger ships does not give an advantage, how will the studio with offices all over the world and 400+ employees make enough money to sustain itself?  They can not sustain themselves just selling cosmetics and hanger trinkets.

    That was already explained since 2013 and reconfirmed years after, micro-transactions. The game is ruled by a single currency that you can earn and buy.

    idk if you're just forgetful or pretend to be unaware of the monetization model of the game, I remember seeing this very same post and explaining it to you last year on this very same forum.
    Yet you continue to evade the question...  How can the game live off micro-transactions of cosmetic items, temp buffs and skins and afford to continue to operate with 400+ employees in offices around the world?  ED has many of the features promised from SC, a lot less staff and yet it still needs to sell DLC to keep the doors open.  CCP has been selling game currency and skins and yet is struggling.

    Sales of new starter packages you say?  A little sure, but the vast majority of people interested in this game have already purchased packages.  Space/Space Sim has always been niche, Eve Online, ED and others have struggled to sell over a million copies (ED hit 1.4 million) and Star Citizen has already surpassed that. 

    You keep saying micro-transactions because CR said it, but CR has said other things in the past that were wrong.  My opinion is, they will offer a subscription for added benefits like increased currency from missions or more hanger space OR they will go the route of ED and start selling DLC a year after the game actually launches.  I may be wrong, I frequently am, but the size of the company and the market for space sims leads me to think we will see some kind of additional fee to play the game, either as a sub fee or DLC shortly after launch.

    Only time will tell. 
    When the game releases... they won't continue to have 400 employees lol. They will continue to allow people to buy credits but will limit amount depending on how much time a person has played or a total amount that can be bought. They may also give an option for a continued subscription which will give certain cosmetic bonuses. 
  • Stormfire962Stormfire962 Member UncommonPosts: 65
    edited June 2017
    Kefo said:
    MaxBacon said:
    frostymug said:
    I knew I was missing the point. It's hard not to when it moves so fast.

    Just so I know I got it this time, what you're saying is that it isn't P2W if you only swear fealty to someone who already paid to win. Did I hit it this time?
    Nope, still missing it... The setup of organizations, either the ones who paid and have fleets and the ones who will play and earn their fleets (and both), makes it so players have the opportunity to play with this ships without having to earn in-game/put up money to get them, within the nature of Orgs and their fleets. (the game already way more ships than it does players, much more will it be once orgs start beefing up their fleets in-game over time)

    You can selectively pick this and that to dismiss my point, but this provides one alternative to achieve the same type of gameplay/tier of content, without actually owning higher tier ships.
    So someone still went the pay2win route and bought a whole bunch of ships. Just because they are letting others on board to help them out doesn't change the fact they bought them with real money
    Dude give it up you will never get it since the logic is too far beyond you.  Also, why don't stop spam this post and let other discuss the point.  Or do you prefer spewing out more useless logic just so you can be noticed.
    Kefo
  • Twisted77Twisted77 Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Question - will there be a simulator where I can try out any ship.  In reality, I'll never have enough gametime to fly one of the big ships, so it would be cool if I could within a simulator... also just to try out different ships (as I will likely be on a frugal budget).
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Twisted77 said:
    Question - will there be a simulator where I can try out any ship.  In reality, I'll never have enough gametime to fly one of the big ships, so it would be cool if I could within a simulator... also just to try out different ships (as I will likely be on a frugal budget).
    --> "Arena Commander" simpod ship PvE/PvP/racing simulator ... available in your hangar

    At the moment you can fly almost any flyable ship using the special in game currency REC to lease a ship for testing for a week.  Should have every ship available once the game has launched.

    If you are a backer since the beginning you probably got half a million or a million+ REC for free.... so usually you can test out basically anything.

    You can also get REC for participating in the playtesting and ship balancing (--> participate in one of the multiplayer PvP maps ... you will get REC, wether you win or not). 


    Have fun
    Kyleran
  • rpmcmurphyrpmcmurphy Member EpicPosts: 3,502
    I think the biggest gripe with REC is how tedious it is to earn ie https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vs5an/cig_please_reward_more_rec_how_can_we_properly/

    Subscribers receive a monthly stipend of 20,000 REC so in all fairness they're a bit biased about how easy it is to hire ships/items.
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    edited June 2017
    I think the biggest gripe with REC is how tedious it is to earn ie https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vs5an/cig_please_reward_more_rec_how_can_we_properly/

    Subscribers receive a monthly stipend of 20,000 REC so in all fairness they're a bit biased about how easy it is to hire ships/items.
    I get more REC from playing Arena Commander every month than from the subscriber stipend ....


    Have fun

    PS:
    Yes I like racing ... its an excellent way to train flying skills .. and it gives REC too
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    I think the biggest gripe with REC is how tedious it is to earn ie https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5vs5an/cig_please_reward_more_rec_how_can_we_properly/

    Subscribers receive a monthly stipend of 20,000 REC so in all fairness they're a bit biased about how easy it is to hire ships/items.
    I get more REC from playing Arena Commander every month than from the subscriber stipend ....


    Have fun

    PS:
    Yes I like racing ... its an excellent way to train flying skills .. and it gives REC too
    Don't you only earn REC in AC by getting kills?
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,328
    Kefo said:
    Don't you only earn REC in AC by getting kills?
    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5luhmr/best_way_to_earn_rec_in_26/?st=j3gxs31i&sh=87898032

    A few hundred RECs per race, 5 minutes-ish per multiplayer race. No shooting required.


    Have fun

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Erillion said:
    Kefo said:
    Don't you only earn REC in AC by getting kills?
    https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/5luhmr/best_way_to_earn_rec_in_26/?st=j3gxs31i&sh=87898032

    A few hundred RECs per race, 5 minutes-ish per multiplayer race. No shooting required.


    Have fun

    Thanks. Thought racing rec was broken but must have been an older thread I read and the bug was fixed since then
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    It helps when you actually play the game you are trying to discuss ;)
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Babuinix said:
    It helps when you actually play the game you are trying to discuss ;)
    sorry won't touch this mess unless you pay me a large sum of money 
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    edited June 2017
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    It helps when you actually play the game you are trying to discuss ;)
    sorry won't touch this mess unless you pay me a large sum of money 
    I'd say you are already "touching" it when post about it ;)

    The sheer fact that you haven't even played it yet feel so rattled about it is quite telling lol

    All I can say is have fun ignorhating Star Citizen as a hobbie I guess. 
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Babuinix said:
    Kefo said:
    Babuinix said:
    It helps when you actually play the game you are trying to discuss ;)
    sorry won't touch this mess unless you pay me a large sum of money 
    I'd say you are already "touching" it when post about it ;)

    The sheer fact that you haven't even played it yet feel so rattled about it is quite telling lol

    All I can say is have fun ignorhating Star Citizen as a hobbie I guess. 
    Not really since I'm not playing it so not touching it.

    its quite telling how? Or are you just using the expression to sound smart?

    Lol right I hate Star Citizen. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess?
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    For some reason this game really turns me off...I dont know if it's the company making it or the rabid fanbois of the game, but I really have zero interest in it....Also when you start a sci fi game like this in EA for years then those players have such a huge advantage over anyone else that it won't be any fun for those who join after launch (if indeed it ever reaches that point).
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    For some reason this game really turns me off...I dont know if it's the company making it or the rabid fanbois of the game, but I really have zero interest in it....Also when you start a sci fi game like this in EA for years then those players have such a huge advantage over anyone else that it won't be any fun for those who join after launch (if indeed it ever reaches that point).
    It's probably both. On one side it's Chris Roberts making unreasonable promises that his dev team can't keep. The other side is the rabid fanboys who will shout down any opinion that doesn't instantly praise the game as the saviour of gaming
    MaxBacon
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    For some reason this game really turns me off...I dont know if it's the company making it or the rabid fanbois of the game, but I really have zero interest in it....Also when you start a sci fi game like this in EA for years then those players have such a huge advantage over anyone else that it won't be any fun for those who join after launch (if indeed it ever reaches that point).

    Your suggestion that SC is in EA could upset supporters of EA games I suggest. Probably better to call it what it is: and alpha that is changing on a fairly regular basis at the moment as things are added.
    Babuinix
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    gervaise1 said:
    For some reason this game really turns me off...I dont know if it's the company making it or the rabid fanbois of the game, but I really have zero interest in it....Also when you start a sci fi game like this in EA for years then those players have such a huge advantage over anyone else that it won't be any fun for those who join after launch (if indeed it ever reaches that point).

    Your suggestion that SC is in EA could upset supporters of EA games I suggest. Probably better to call it what it is: and alpha that is changing on a fairly regular basis at the moment as things are added.
    It can be argued as early access since that's what people who give them money get. Of course that would also mean any game with a paid alpha or beta could be considered EA lol
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    Supporters of EA games?  :D


  • ChicagoCubChicagoCub Member UncommonPosts: 381
    I think right now calling it "pay to pay" is the most apt description.
    kikoodutroa8
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 4,463
    I think right now calling it "pay to pay" is the most apt description.


    Welcome :D

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