Hmm, I would say easy content. I'm not that great a player, so when I have to artificially limit myself in order to make something a challenge - well (in my opinion) there is something wrong.
I hope a game comes out that I like, but I won't hold my breath
What is this ridiculous attempt at correlating player numbers with quality? That is not how it works. IE: Over a Billion people use Facebook. Does that mean those Billion people spent their time before Facebook on less-worthwhile endeavors? I'd say the opposite is true.
What is this ridiculous attempt at correlating player numbers with quality? That is not how it works. IE: Over a Billion people use Facebook. Does that mean those Billion people spent their time before Facebook on less-worthwhile endeavors? I'd say the opposite is true.
True, but the opposite is also true. It ALSO doesn't mean that that what came before was MORE worthwhile or better. In the case of MMORPGs it simply means there were less players in the genre, that does not automatically mean games from that era were better at all.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
For me it was the EQ planes of power expansion. That is when I really got the feeling games themselves no longer mattered, only how much $$ they made. Luclin spire travel was fine, a teleport stone for every corner of Norrath was not. It was also the first expansion to instantly trivialize all gear from every expansion previous.
Since there are more MMO's, and more people playing MMO's, than ever, how can they be in decline?
All that growth with the subscription model...
Precisely. The point about mmorpg decline is that the style of those original games are no longer made.
EQ players think the market is shit because no modern EQ-style mmorpg exists. Although I would consider myself part of the crowd who expands this across all old school style mmorpgs as I didn't play EQ but rather entered on Asheron's Call and went through a few of the other old school mmorpgs as well into early Wow.
If a chart existed listing only players in old school style mmorpgs there would be far fewer than even in the peak era ... and most would be from emulators. Interest exists but specific genre development doesn't with big developers.
Corruption of the genre started the moment developers decided to change to very core vision of their game to maximize profit. This heavily started with Wow first trying to maximize and separate the largest subscription segment within their own audience. The F2P model further took this to a whole new level and now games are specifically designed only for the largest and most profitable target audience (hence why everything ends up sort of the same ... easy entry, mass audience rotating door). Entire genres were destroyed or redefined due to this.
Indie mmorpgs specifically targeting these lost audiences exist because of this. Old school emulators exist because of this.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
Gen1 games like EQ had vapid long xp gains to keep you subbed for as long as possible.
The gameplay wasn't complex enough to warrant the long level grinds.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
Gen1 games like EQ had vapid long xp gains to keep you subbed for as long as possible.
The gameplay wasn't complex enough to warrant the long level grinds.
And yet they had great player retention, so apparently people found that there was a purpose behind it, or that it at least lent meaning to achievement.
I guess not everyone can be as smart and as cool as you.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
To be fair @Akulas said MORE about making money, not just making money.
Obviously a game, like any business must be profitable in order to stick around, but if Devs just see dollar signs when they go to work, they're probably starting out with little concern for the final product. Making MMOs is an art from my perspective (a very expensive art) and if they don't approach them that way, they're likely to be doomed from the start. That's probably a big reason why good MMOs are so rare anymore. Along with movies, they are one of the most expensive art forms there this. You might have guessed, I don't think much of the movie industry either.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
Gen1 games like EQ had vapid long xp gains to keep you subbed for as long as possible.
The gameplay wasn't complex enough to warrant the long level grinds.
This entire point is mute when you consider MUDs were almost all free most with at least double the progression of EQ. Remort systems, multiclassing, higher exp curves, and no subscription. Purely a means of extending progression.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
Yep.
The problem has never really been about making money.
The problem lies with those developers who make money and don't seem to use some of it to make a great game.
Just an expression, guessing you don't have it in your neck of the woods.
You used the wrong word so he tried to be nice about it but then you couldn't accept it so you mocked him . It is moot not mute. A point is moot which means that it is no longer worth discussing and mute means without sound or speech.
Just an expression, guessing you don't have it in your neck of the woods.
You used the wrong word so he tried to be nice about it but then you couldn't accept it so you mocked him . It is moot not mute. A point is moot which means that it is no longer worth discussing and mute means without sound or speech.
Yep
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
What I learned from my years in EQ was that it wasn't the game that was great, it was the community...Having a good size guild and several friends to play with made it a great game.... What alot of us lament is that we dont have that community in any game we try now....Almost every MMO in the last 10 years is geared towards the soloer (and yes WoW started that).
This 100% just look at the replies the OP is getting. The community in today's mmo's are crap and that's why non of my gamer friends want to play them anymore. I miss those old days before mmo's went mainstream thanks to Wow. Mmo's had a better class of player's. Mmo's are losing ground with a lot of gamer's but on sites like this you are led to believe this is not true. The only thing keeping them alive is crowdfunding. Big game companies don't want to bother with them anymore. I have a community of gamer friends that i hang out with. They would rather play rpg board games than deal with mmo players anymore.
What I learned from my years in EQ was that it wasn't the game that was great, it was the community...Having a good size guild and several friends to play with made it a great game.... What alot of us lament is that we dont have that community in any game we try now....Almost every MMO in the last 10 years is geared towards the soloer (and yes WoW started that).
This 100% just look at the replies the OP is getting. The community in today's mmo's are crap and that's why non of my gamer friends want to play them anymore. I miss those old days before mmo's went mainstream thanks to Wow. Mmo's had a better class of player's. Mmo's are losing ground with a lot of gamer's but on sites like this you are led to believe this is not true. The only thing keeping them alive is crowdfunding. Big game companies don't want to bother with them anymore. I have a community of gamer friends that i hang out with. They would rather play rpg board games than deal with mmo players anymore.
Well I think EQ was a great game because of how it was designed to promote community, grouping, socialization and interaction.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
EQ died when Gates of Discord launched. not only for the bugged expansion itself, but for how horrible it was. that and WoW was in beta/getting released around that time
WoW died for me at the end of WotLK and I have never looked back
It is way too easy for upstart wannabe developers to pretend they are quality developers,so we end up with thousands of really sub par games.it is so easy in fact,some are trying to create mmorpg's that should need 100 people with only 2-5 people.
Even these mobile and moba games are just really low end game development.I look around everywhere and i don't see the kind of effort that if was me,i could stand back and be proud of my game,instead they mostly look embarrassing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The second they made the game content more for solo players than groups.
Now that's an interesting point. When exactly did that happen? Can someone please enlighten me? As I recall, EQ2 was still team oriented as a lot of EQ1 players moved on to that game. I didn't play WoW very long, but I assume that was relatively team oriented. After those games, I tried City of Heroes (which had some really good aspects, but was too repetitive) in which grouping was pretty common.
After CoH, I got kind of fed up with MMOs and took a break for a few years. When I came back, I was surprised to learn how "anti-social" MMOs had become. It seemed no one grouped let alone hardly even talked to each other anymore. That alienated me even further and I didn't stay with the genre for very long.
I feel that if you cannot recreate the community you won't be able to recreate the experience. I am also unsure I can stick to a game the way I was obsessed with Everquest. I mean I loved Everquest but so much of it is entangled with it being my very first MMORPG.
I played it in the over the shoulder view always so I cannot attest to its immersion due to it being in first person view. All I know is that to this day I have only played two games that had that type of community, Everquest and FFXI.
I have also played so many games since then it is difficult for me to trace where exactly things have changed for me personally and the others who played the original Everquest may have similar difficulties with what they want to keep and change in the genre.
Comments
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I hope a game comes out that I like, but I won't hold my breath
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
EQ players think the market is shit because no modern EQ-style mmorpg exists. Although I would consider myself part of the crowd who expands this across all old school style mmorpgs as I didn't play EQ but rather entered on Asheron's Call and went through a few of the other old school mmorpgs as well into early Wow.
If a chart existed listing only players in old school style mmorpgs there would be far fewer than even in the peak era ... and most would be from emulators. Interest exists but specific genre development doesn't with big developers.
Corruption of the genre started the moment developers decided to change to very core vision of their game to maximize profit. This heavily started with Wow first trying to maximize and separate the largest subscription segment within their own audience. The F2P model further took this to a whole new level and now games are specifically designed only for the largest and most profitable target audience (hence why everything ends up sort of the same ... easy entry, mass audience rotating door). Entire genres were destroyed or redefined due to this.
Indie mmorpgs specifically targeting these lost audiences exist because of this. Old school emulators exist because of this.
You stay sassy!
The gameplay wasn't complex enough to warrant the long level grinds.
I guess not everyone can be as smart and as cool as you.
To be fair @Akulas said MORE about making money, not just making money.
Obviously a game, like any business must be profitable in order to stick around, but if Devs just see dollar signs when they go to work, they're probably starting out with little concern for the final product. Making MMOs is an art from my perspective (a very expensive art) and if they don't approach them that way, they're likely to be doomed from the start. That's probably a big reason why good MMOs are so rare anymore. Along with movies, they are one of the most expensive art forms there this. You might have guessed, I don't think much of the movie industry either.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/So we can't hear the point anymore?
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
~~ postlarval ~~
The problem has never really been about making money.
The problem lies with those developers who make money and don't seem to use some of it to make a great game.
~~ postlarval ~~
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/just look at the replies the OP is getting. The community in today's mmo's are crap and that's why non of my gamer friends want to play them anymore. I miss those old days before mmo's went mainstream thanks to Wow. Mmo's had a better class of player's. Mmo's are losing ground with a lot of gamer's but on sites like this you are led to believe this is not true. The only thing keeping them alive is crowdfunding. Big game companies don't want to bother with them anymore. I have a community of gamer friends that i hang out with. They would rather play rpg board games than deal with mmo players anymore.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/WoW died for me at the end of WotLK and I have never looked back
It is way too easy for upstart wannabe developers to pretend they are quality developers,so we end up with thousands of really sub par games.it is so easy in fact,some are trying to create mmorpg's that should need 100 people with only 2-5 people.
Even these mobile and moba games are just really low end game development.I look around everywhere and i don't see the kind of effort that if was me,i could stand back and be proud of my game,instead they mostly look embarrassing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Now that's an interesting point. When exactly did that happen? Can someone please enlighten me? As I recall, EQ2 was still team oriented as a lot of EQ1 players moved on to that game. I didn't play WoW very long, but I assume that was relatively team oriented. After those games, I tried City of Heroes (which had some really good aspects, but was too repetitive) in which grouping was pretty common.
After CoH, I got kind of fed up with MMOs and took a break for a few years. When I came back, I was surprised to learn how "anti-social" MMOs had become. It seemed no one grouped let alone hardly even talked to each other anymore. That alienated me even further and I didn't stay with the genre for very long.
I played it in the over the shoulder view always so I cannot attest to its immersion due to it being in first person view. All I know is that to this day I have only played two games that had that type of community, Everquest and FFXI.
I have also played so many games since then it is difficult for me to trace where exactly things have changed for me personally and the others who played the original Everquest may have similar difficulties with what they want to keep and change in the genre.