As to your other points Both founders left in 2012 and not 2010. Ray Muzyka(retired in 2012) Greg Zeschuk(retired in 2012). And they left presumably because EA was putting a lot of pressure on them because they wanted to know why a project ( SWTOR) that they gave large sums of money to and allowed them to have complete creative control over failed to meet expectation.
Greg Zeschuk is a gentleman, and I do agree that previous to SWTOR they had full creative control. Ex employees generally never speak badly about their ex employer, at least not in public. SWTOR wasn't clearly a Bioware game, never looked like one, never felt like one, the way I see it is that being such an expensive project EA commissioned an extensive marketing research and the results heavily influenced the game outcome. The "Good Doctors" always took responsibility for the quality of their product, and I think they didn't like being blamed for a disaster in which they didn't have full control, also remember Bioware had to deal with Lucas Arts not just EA, so I am sure SWTOR final result wasn't exactly what the Doctors had in mind.
Neither Ray nor Greg have had anything at all to do with video games or the industry since they retired from Bioware. Although it's not conclusive proof of anything, it seems to indicate that them leaving Bioware was more about truly retiring from video game production than all the speculative rumors that it was about being pissed with EA.
If it'd been the later they probably would have kept their hands in game development in some fashion.
Cue new rumor that their experience at EA was so soul crushing that it soured them to game development for life
Completely agree. I personally felt that they got tired of the not so pleasant corporate world which is not for everyone even successful developers because it is soul crushing and not for the feint of heart and decided to leave on their own terms.
While your passion is strong it appears that you are mistaken in some aspects or in the order of things. DA 2 was the first Bioware game that was released under EA followed by the first game totally created and produced under EA SWTOR. Then Mass Effect 3, DAI, and Andromeda.
Mass Effect 3 was released in 2012 and Dragon Age inquisition in 2014, since the "Doctors" retired in 2012, we can safely say those two were still their babies (those games have a 4-5 years production cycle). So basically ME:A is the first Bioware game fully managed by EA. Let me be clear about this to avoid confusion, what I mean is that ME:A is the first Bioware game not supervised by Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, those 2 made Bioware, without them it's not Bioware anymore, just another EA branch. You can clearly see the difference in quality standards between ME3 and ME:A...it cannot be more clearer than that, after 2012 Bioware is not the same Studio it used to be.
Completely agree. I personally felt that they got tired of the not so pleasant corporate world which is not for everyone even successful developers because it is soul crushing and not for the feint of heart and decided to leave on their own terms.
That's exactly what I tried to explain in my posts. These people loved making games, they never thought about how much money the game will make, the only thing they were worried about was the quality and the fact that all their games had too meet high standard, money will come as a consequence. Once the big corporations started to get too involved with the development of the game (in this case SWTOR), they just lost interest and quit, because making games wasn't fun anymore, and taking responsibilities for other people bad decisions wasn't in Bioware DNA.
I agree with you to and extent only because I think EA was better off
not acquiring Bioware , but they needed a known developer like Bioware
in their house. EA may or may not be the big evil that a lot of us would
like to believe, but Bioware has shown that it can not step up and be
the developer that EA wants and needs them to be.
Dude you don't get how EA works, I'll explain to you.
1) EA buys a big Studio 2) EA start to micromanage the new acquired Studio. 3) The original Managers/Owners of said Studios quit because of EA interfering with the creative process. 4) EA put new managers (ex EA tea boys) in charge of the newly acquired Studio 5) The new game bomb, because of the incompetence of those tea boys...I mean managers. 6) EA shut the Studio down 7) EA buys another big independent Studio, rinse and repeat.
I am not making this up, go and read the history of Origins, Westwood, Maxis, Bullfrog, Mythic, Pandemic, all the original staff/management leave after few years.
Bioware founders and creative brains Ray Muzyka, Greg Zeschuk, left Bioware in 2010, probably because they weren't happy about SWTOR creative direction, it wasn't up to Bioware high standards. After they left, EA managed to publish two successful games Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3, but even those two games had some input from Ray Muzyka, Greg Zeschuk as they were already in production before they left. Mass Effect 3 is the first Bioware game EA fully managed, and it was ok, mainly because they didn't mess with the formula (though it wasn't as good as ME2). But without good managers and creative people eventually the luck runs out and you have ME:A.
I've read this a lot about television executives. Very seldom do they leave a new TV series alone and feel they must provide input to make it better by adding what's popular from other shows at the time. Sometimes they decide they just don't like that type of show even though they committed to giving it a chance. They barely or don't advertise it. They move it around to different days and different times so fans find it difficult to find. They insist on airing the episodes out of order. If the writer has a lot of political clout, they pretty much leave the show alone, but most writers don't and are looking to break into TV.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
While your passion is strong it appears that you are mistaken in some aspects or in the order of things. DA 2 was the first Bioware game that was released under EA followed by the first game totally created and produced under EA SWTOR. Then Mass Effect 3, DAI, and Andromeda.
<snip> Dragon Age inquisition in 2014, since the "Doctors" retired in 2012, we can safely say those two were still their babies (those games have a 4-5 years production cycle). <snip>
DA: I was created entirely in EA's internal engine. No suggestions that it took "4-5 years". Lots of reports about how using Frostbite is allowing EA studios to develop games faster. DA:I almost certainly a post SWTOR.
DA: I was created entirely in EA's internal engine. No suggestions that it took "4-5 years". Lots of reports about how using Frostbite is allowing EA studios to develop games faster. DA:I almost certainly a post SWTOR.
I knew this was going to be misinterpreted that's why I added:
Let me be clear about this to avoid confusion, what I mean is that ME:A is the first Bioware game not supervised by Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, those 2 made Bioware, without them it's not Bioware anymore, just another EA branch. You can clearly see the difference in quality standards between ME3 and ME:A...it cannot be more clearer than that, after 2012 Bioware is not the same Studio it used to be.
Bioware is part of EA so it is normal to use EA assets and resources. My point is that DA:I even if it was released 2 years after the Doctors left, was still very much under their creative influence and management (for the first 2-3 years). All the important decisions are usually taken in pre-production stage, that include deciding the creative direction, choosing the tools and assets you want to use, assigning the staff and management, deciding a realistic time table and assigning the right budget to the different branches of the project.
The first 2-3 years is the time the game take shape, which means developing or adapting a game engine, building the core of the game and starting to create the bulk of the content. The last 2 years are dedicated to finish content building, optimizing the game and bug fixing. So by the time the Doctors left DA:I was pretty much a done deal, the new Bioware management had to supervise the final stages of the production process, which was adding the remaining content, optimize the game and fix bugs.
Bioware essentially has an A team a B team and an "also ran by team= SWTOR"...
ME:A was a B team effort (which makes sense since it was an off shoot not a major entry into a finished franchise). Anthem is an A team effort, previous ME games were A team efforts as is the case with DA.
We'll see how Anthem turns out, as well as the next DA.
Either way it's looking like anthem will be their first real foray into a game-play first model. Previously they've always went a storytelling, dialogue heavy first route. That will say a lot about team A's abilities in regard to animation, movement, world/level design etc.. Which historically have always been weak in their games regardless of ME:A.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I love how this is always phrased such that the mediocrity of the game is not the problem; the problem is those jerky players who noticed it.
They are right, Its similar to when i went to pick up my new car from the dealership and upon closer inspection i realized the rear fender had a dent in it and the pleather seats were pink. Stupid me for noticing
When did BIOware finally die? Was it after Ray and Greg left?
When they decided that SWTOR had to be an MMO because...WoW(as stupid reason as it gets). They then decided to pump SO MUCH money into it(~250 million $ iirc) and given that it was the most expensive singleplayer game ever(effectively SP ; GTA V is more expensive now)...it failed and caused irreparable damage to Bioware. Lukewarm things like ME3 and DA:I didn't help too. Ultimately, the good doctors left and now we have...this abomination presenting itself as BW.
Yeah swtor was a flop.
Didn't know it cost that much to make. I can't imagine how they spent so much on such a shallow gme experience. It's basically just a large single player game.
Bioware essentially has an A team a B team and an "also ran by team= SWTOR"...
ME:A was a B team effort (which makes sense since it was an off shoot not a major entry into a finished franchise). Anthem is an A team effort, previous ME games were A team efforts as is the case with DA.
We'll see how Anthem turns out, as well as the next DA.
Either way it's looking like anthem will be their first real foray into a game-play first model. Previously they've always went a storytelling, dialogue heavy first route. That will say a lot about team A's abilities in regard to animation, movement, world/level design etc.. Which historically have always been weak in their games regardless of ME:A.
There was a huge expose on the whole ME:A debacle in Kotaku, personally i am keeping all fingers crossed that Anthem doesn't suffer from half the problems that ME:A did, and i am desperately hoping that Anthem isn't infested with the SJW BS that ME:A suffered from, Bioware has the chance of outdoing Destiny 2 with Anthem, but if they pull another ME:A then their reputation is pretty much destroyed completely.
I think they have the talent and ability to pull off a great game. Historically I think they've been hampered by very conservative large corp design constraints.
EA has other studios and teams that have a lot of experience with the game-play first model so I can picture them keeping Bioware focused on what they purchased them for and what they had done best.
Times change and I'm glad they're branching out with a new format.
I personally disagree. EA is huge and they have several different Studios that are specialized in different genres. Dice is way more suited to make this type of games as they are the FPS specialists in the EA stable, and Anthem looks more Action than RPG.
Bioware trademark it's their story driven RPGs, and in my opinion it should stay that way, they should not mess with the brand identity. What EA is doing is trying to cash in Bioware popularity turning the Studio into another generic game developer. In my view that's the beginning of the end for Bioware, even if Anthem will turn out to be a success, which I don't think it will.
Bioware essentially has an A team a B team and an "also ran by team= SWTOR"...
ME:A was a B team effort (which makes sense since it was an off shoot not a major entry into a finished franchise). Anthem is an A team effort, previous ME games were A team efforts as is the case with DA.
We'll see how Anthem turns out, as well as the next DA.
Either way it's looking like anthem will be their first real foray into a game-play first model. Previously they've always went a storytelling, dialogue heavy first route. That will say a lot about team A's abilities in regard to animation, movement, world/level design etc.. Which historically have always been weak in their games regardless of ME:A.
There was a huge expose on the whole ME:A debacle in Kotaku, personally i am keeping all fingers crossed that Anthem doesn't suffer from half the problems that ME:A did, and i am desperately hoping that Anthem isn't infested with the SJW BS that ME:A suffered from, Bioware has the chance of outdoing Destiny 2 with Anthem, but if they pull another ME:A then their reputation is pretty much destroyed completely.
I try and steer clear of Kotaku and polygon but what was the jist of what happened?
Bioware essentially has an A team a B team and an "also ran by team= SWTOR"...
ME:A was a B team effort (which makes sense since it was an off shoot not a major entry into a finished franchise). Anthem is an A team effort, previous ME games were A team efforts as is the case with DA.
We'll see how Anthem turns out, as well as the next DA.
Either way it's looking like anthem will be their first real foray into a game-play first model. Previously they've always went a storytelling, dialogue heavy first route. That will say a lot about team A's abilities in regard to animation, movement, world/level design etc.. Which historically have always been weak in their games regardless of ME:A.
I think they have the talent and ability to pull off a great game. Historically I think they've been hampered by very conservative large corp design constraints.
EA has other studios and teams that have a lot of experience with the game-play first model so I can picture them keeping Bioware focused on what they purchased them for and what they had done best.
Times change and I'm glad they're branching out with a new format. It feels like they're stagnating so something different is good. Even if they don't have a DLC immediately planned I still think they'll return to the franchise eventually, tying up loose ends and continuing the story. Maybe it will be with their new game play oriented format.
Anthem is probably costing them a lot less to make and they're probably thinking they can make even more money from it then the ME series. So it's the usual less is more with the same or higher price tag to maximize profits. Just have to wait to see how the game plays and not get caught up in the hype.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Completely agree. I personally felt that they got tired of the not so pleasant corporate world which is not for everyone even successful developers because it is soul crushing and not for the feint of heart and decided to leave on their own terms.
That's exactly what I tried to explain in my posts. These people loved making games, they never thought about how much money the game will make, the only thing they were worried about was the quality and the fact that all their games had too meet high standard, money will come as a consequence. Once the big corporations started to get too involved with the development of the game (in this case SWTOR), they just lost interest and quit, because making games wasn't fun anymore, and taking responsibilities for other people bad decisions wasn't in Bioware DNA.
I don't think that's it. I have a feeling the doctors just got tired of the vitriol that was flung at them for SWTOR and ME3 by the loudest and most pretentious of fans. The way gamers abuse developers with constant bitching and unrealistic expectations, I would leave as well. Why put up with it.
Completely agree. I personally felt that they got tired of the not so pleasant corporate world which is not for everyone even successful developers because it is soul crushing and not for the feint of heart and decided to leave on their own terms.
That's exactly what I tried to explain in my posts. These people loved making games, they never thought about how much money the game will make, the only thing they were worried about was the quality and the fact that all their games had too meet high standard, money will come as a consequence. Once the big corporations started to get too involved with the development of the game (in this case SWTOR), they just lost interest and quit, because making games wasn't fun anymore, and taking responsibilities for other people bad decisions wasn't in Bioware DNA.
I don't think that's it. I have a feeling the doctors just got tired of the vitriol that was flung at them for SWTOR and ME3 by the loudest and most pretentious of fans. The way gamers abuse developers with constant bitching and unrealistic expectations, I would leave as well. Why put up with it.
last I remember as long you do something there will be people to say it was bad or you didn't do the right thing, if you can't take that, better don't leave your bed in the morning.
plus you really can't say the flak they are getting now is not what they deserve
plus you really can't say the flak they are getting now is not what they deserve
Who can't? After actually playing ME:A, I don't think it's as bad as folks have made it out to be. So I don't think the flak is warranted at the levels it's been given. Especially if a person's complaint is about SJW BS.
See I just did... just because you said I couldn't.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Completely agree. I personally felt that they got tired of the not so pleasant corporate world which is not for everyone even successful developers because it is soul crushing and not for the feint of heart and decided to leave on their own terms.
That's exactly what I tried to explain in my posts. These people loved making games, they never thought about how much money the game will make, the only thing they were worried about was the quality and the fact that all their games had too meet high standard, money will come as a consequence. Once the big corporations started to get too involved with the development of the game (in this case SWTOR), they just lost interest and quit, because making games wasn't fun anymore, and taking responsibilities for other people bad decisions wasn't in Bioware DNA.
I don't think that's it. I have a feeling the doctors just got tired of the vitriol that was flung at them for SWTOR and ME3 by the loudest and most pretentious of fans. The way gamers abuse developers with constant bitching and unrealistic expectations, I would leave as well. Why put up with it.
last I remember as long you do something there will be people to say it was bad or you didn't do the right thing, if you can't take that, better don't leave your bed in the morning.
plus you really can't say the flak they are getting now is not what they deserve
Well, there is something you are not taking into consideration. They are millionaires and don't have to take men-childrens attacks against them. They can retire and find another hobby and be just fine. The only people losing out on that situation are gamers.
Don't forget the developer who tweeted how he hates white people and that fun thing where the devs wanted the females in the game to be ugly as some sort of ingame SJW statement. And that's not even including the SJW brother and sister duo of halfwits that provided the player voices.
Yep. ME:A is a prime example of what happens when you hire people based on their credentials as political activists as opposed to their ability to actually do the job they've been hired for. As it turns out, misandrists and racist cucks don't necessarily make good game developers. Go figure.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Completely agree. I personally felt that they got tired of the not so pleasant corporate world which is not for everyone even successful developers because it is soul crushing and not for the feint of heart and decided to leave on their own terms.
That's exactly what I tried to explain in my posts. These people loved making games, they never thought about how much money the game will make, the only thing they were worried about was the quality and the fact that all their games had too meet high standard, money will come as a consequence. Once the big corporations started to get too involved with the development of the game (in this case SWTOR), they just lost interest and quit, because making games wasn't fun anymore, and taking responsibilities for other people bad decisions wasn't in Bioware DNA.
I don't think that's it. I have a feeling the doctors just got tired of the vitriol that was flung at them for SWTOR and ME3 by the loudest and most pretentious of fans. The way gamers abuse developers with constant bitching and unrealistic expectations, I would leave as well. Why put up with it.
last I remember as long you do something there will be people to say it was bad or you didn't do the right thing, if you can't take that, better don't leave your bed in the morning.
plus you really can't say the flak they are getting now is not what they deserve
Well, there is something you are not taking into consideration. They are millionaires and don't have to take men-childrens attacks against them. They can retire and find another hobby and be just fine. The only people losing out on that situation are gamers.
so for you is better stay quiet if not they will stop making games? I prefer people like that stop messing with games or things they can't make right so people who can can work. so what you say can happen then its better we keep complaning and not spending money or shit like this
Yep. ME:A is a prime example of what happens when you hire people based on their credentials as political activists as opposed to their ability to actually do the job they've been hired for. As it turns out, misandrists and racist cucks don't necessarily make good game developers. Go figure.
As we asked earlier in the thread, please do NOT bring a political agenda into this discussion. That is a violation of our forum rules.
Comments
Ex employees generally never speak badly about their ex employer, at least not in public.
SWTOR wasn't clearly a Bioware game, never looked like one, never felt like one, the way I see it is that being such an expensive project EA commissioned an extensive marketing research and the results heavily influenced the game outcome.
The "Good Doctors" always took responsibility for the quality of their product, and I think they didn't like being blamed for a disaster in which they didn't have full control, also remember Bioware had to deal with Lucas Arts not just EA, so I am sure SWTOR final result wasn't exactly what the Doctors had in mind.
So basically ME:A is the first Bioware game fully managed by EA.
Let me be clear about this to avoid confusion, what I mean is that ME:A is the first Bioware game not supervised by Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, those 2 made Bioware, without them it's not Bioware anymore, just another EA branch.
You can clearly see the difference in quality standards between ME3 and ME:A...it cannot be more clearer than that, after 2012 Bioware is not the same Studio it used to be.
These people loved making games, they never thought about how much money the game will make, the only thing they were worried about was the quality and the fact that all their games had too meet high standard, money will come as a consequence.
Once the big corporations started to get too involved with the development of the game (in this case SWTOR), they just lost interest and quit, because making games wasn't fun anymore, and taking responsibilities for other people bad decisions wasn't in Bioware DNA.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I knew this was going to be misinterpreted that's why I added:
Bioware is part of EA so it is normal to use EA assets and resources.
My point is that DA:I even if it was released 2 years after the Doctors left, was still very much under their creative influence and management (for the first 2-3 years).
All the important decisions are usually taken in pre-production stage, that include deciding the creative direction, choosing the tools and assets you want to use, assigning the staff and management, deciding a realistic time table and assigning the right budget to the different branches of the project.
The first 2-3 years is the time the game take shape, which means developing or adapting a game engine, building the core of the game and starting to create the bulk of the content.
The last 2 years are dedicated to finish content building, optimizing the game and bug fixing.
So by the time the Doctors left DA:I was pretty much a done deal, the new Bioware management had to supervise the final stages of the production process, which was adding the remaining content, optimize the game and fix bugs.
ME:A lacked all the Pre-production careful planning and the fine details Bioware were famous for, and it was a mess right from the beginning.
Everyone should read this article on Kotaku to understand better what really went wrong with ME:A
http://kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
ME:A was a B team effort (which makes sense since it was an off shoot not a major entry into a finished franchise). Anthem is an A team effort, previous ME games were A team efforts as is the case with DA.
We'll see how Anthem turns out, as well as the next DA.
Either way it's looking like anthem will be their first real foray into a game-play first model. Previously they've always went a storytelling, dialogue heavy first route. That will say a lot about team A's abilities in regard to animation, movement, world/level design etc.. Which historically have always been weak in their games regardless of ME:A.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Aloha Mr Hand !
Yeah swtor was a flop.
Didn't know it cost that much to make. I can't imagine how they spent so much on such a shallow gme experience. It's basically just a large single player game.
EA is huge and they have several different Studios that are specialized in different genres.
Dice is way more suited to make this type of games as they are the FPS specialists in the EA stable, and Anthem looks more Action than RPG.
Bioware trademark it's their story driven RPGs, and in my opinion it should stay that way, they should not mess with the brand identity.
What EA is doing is trying to cash in Bioware popularity turning the Studio into another generic game developer.
In my view that's the beginning of the end for Bioware, even if Anthem will turn out to be a success, which I don't think it will.
http://kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
plus you really can't say the flak they are getting now is not what they deserve
See I just did... just because you said I couldn't.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Thanks.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯