On the topic of plagiarism. Song had more lives than a cat. Ernie Maresca "wrote" and recorded the song before Dion. Dion must have bought the rights. Ernie Maresca was obviously "inspired" by Leiber and Stoller who wrote Kansas City.
Ernie Maresca - The Wanderer
Kansas City - Wilbert Harrison
Song just won't die.
Dion - Ruby Baby
Though you have to remember that "rock" was still somewhat "new" so what we're hearing is more of "the feel" of music during that span of time.
It's akin to listening to Blues. You've heard of "12 Bar Blues" right? Well, that's the basis for many Blues songs. I strongly suspect what we are hearing here is exactly that, an establishment of style. They probably didn't think one bit about it other than "this is what rock sounds like".
You find that many 50's rock songs use the exact same feel and harmonic progression.
Just shootin' from the hip here but the feel of these songs are just what was going on at the time.
I also posit that if the songs were owned by the same publisher they very well could have said "use this" which only helped to perpetuate the styles.
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why would they even use an original, just imitate it, and may be even make it sound better.
Is music that difficult? You see people now with sound boards that music while walking down the street in a 5 min video. Literally taking them no time to make the music since they make it as they go.
So to that end, this guy doesnt deserve a penny for some song which I am assuming is old as well.
There comes a time when certain media just doesn't have the copy right to make money, and may be people should make another song like the 5 mins it takes other people to make. May be writing the lyris takes a while... thats about it.
As a composer I kind of want to slap you up-side the head and say stop it.
However, in fairness, I get what you are driving at (I think). Why not just create a song with the feel of these other songs and not have to deal with royalties?
Kind of a good question.
I think the simplest answer is that they are going for an already established/iconic feel created by the music but more so the lyrics.
This is an "iconic" song. It has a cultural weight by its very nature of being around for so long, used so many times, already in the ears of millions. Someone hears it and it evokes all sorts of thoughts/memories.
That's my guess.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
why would they even use an original, just imitate it, and may be even make it sound better.
Is music that difficult? You see people now with sound boards that music while walking down the street in a 5 min video. Literally taking them no time to make the music since they make it as they go.
So to that end, this guy doesnt deserve a penny for some song which I am assuming is old as well.
There comes a time when certain media just doesn't have the copy right to make money, and may be people should make another song like the 5 mins it takes other people to make. May be writing the lyris takes a while... thats about it.
As a composer I kind of want to slap you up-side the head and say stop it.
However, in fairness, I get what you are driving at (I think). Why not just create a song with the feel of these other songs and not have to deal with royalties?
Kind of a good question.
I think the simplest answer is that they are going for an already established/iconic feel created by the music but more so the lyrics.
This is an "iconic" song. It has a cultural weight by its very nature of being around for so long, used so many times, already in the ears of millions. Someone hears it and it evokes all sorts of thoughts/memories.
That's my guess.
It also fits perfectly with the alternate history retro setting. Same reason they used The Ink Spots' I Don't Want to Set the World on Fire for Fallout 3.
On a side note though I hope the Belmonts get something out of this. Those poor "... and the ..." people never get any respect
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Lawsuits - remember in the end there is only one party that benefits - the lawyers.
True, but it is more than a little amusing that the ones on the wrong end of a lawsuit is Zenimax, given their propensity for using the things against others recently, one might even call it Karma
Funny, that was the first thing that popped into my head when I read this.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
These artists push the marketing and licensing of their songs to third party publishers, such as ASCAP. This is how you have popular music in video games, playing in grocery stores, and even in political campaigns. The consumer selects one or more songs, then pay very high fees to play the songs in specific locations, specific works (game or movie), or at a specific event. Every now and then an artist pulls their head out of their asses and finds out they don't like a politician or that a video game made a bucket of money, and they announce a lawsuit.
I say "announce a lawsuit" because it is all a publicity stunt. The defendant (game, movie, or politician) simply produces the license agreement signed with the third party, and it all goes away. I seriously doubt that any license agreement for the use of The Wanderer requires the licensee to first get permission from the artist. I mean, that is just stupid. If licensees had to first get permission from the artist, then why license through a third party? Why not just have all those wishing to license the song to come to the artist directly?
Because that's not the way it works, and this guy's lawsuit is going nowhere.
ASCAP doesn't license, they collect royalties.
Publishing companies handle the licensing and placement and it isn't some "nobody gets to approve anything" situation either. It's standard business.
ASCAP licenses music and distributes royalties. You can buy a license right from their website. The publishing company makes the deals with companies like ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. Do you really believe every publishing company makes separate deals with every grocery store, restaurant, and radio station?
In fact, some venues are exclusive! Just like in a restaurant where you can have either Coke products OR Pepsi products, some venues (e.g. convention center) permit only ASCAP licensed playlists or BMI licensed playlists, but not both. Politicians, motivational speakers, and other types of businesses sometimes get in trouble because of this. They license music through BMI, then play that music at an ASCAP only venue.
The only good argument in favor of the artist, that I have seen in this thread, is the possibility that Zenimax may not have obtained the proper licensing for both the game and the commercial.
Other than that, the artist is hoping Zenimax settles just to avoid a more expensive court battle, which Zenimax would win.
ASCAP licenses for general/broadcast play purposes. Radio stations, TV Networks, Bars, Department Stores, etc. This situation is different. The music is being used to promote the direct sale of a product commercially. For clarification when I say ASCAP doesn't license I mean as it pertains to THIS medium.
ASCAP does not license the rights to it's members music for advertisement/commercial placements. When you register works you include Composers, Writers, and Publishers who administrate the works.
The bottom line is, AGAIN, if Zenimax agreed to give the artist/publishing administrator final review WHICH IS NORMAL and they bypassed the step, they will be found in the wrong and have to pay damages.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Dion is just a troll. Let's go back to yester year Feb. 03, 1959 The place Clear Lake, Iowa. After Finishing up the last set of the concert , Buddy Holly chartered a plane for his band to take to Fargo, North Dakota. However, Waylon Jennings exchanged his seat with The Big Bopper because Richardson was sick. Tommy Allsup flipped a coin with Ritchie Valens for the coveted third seat.
That's the version that has been commonly accepted for 58 years until earlier this year when Dion out of the blue stated that in fact it was he who flipped the coin with Richie Valens for the third seat. Now why would he wait so long to come out and make this claim? Well, Tommy Allsup was critically ill and hospitalized from complications after surgery he had which lead to his death.
In comes Dion like a cheap lawyer following a car accident trying to claim his place in Rock and Roll history my making the claim that he simply did not want to make a big deal of things previous,but now feels like it is time to clear the air about things. He claims it was him who flipped the coin. Oddly enough the only person who has ever told his version of the story was Dion. And no one else.
All I gotta say is I hope that his claim of Zenimax not being truthful about standard liscense agreement and misrepresented him about his recorded music. Otherwise it will be just another cautionary tale of a boy who cried wolf .
Cool! Now maybe he can go back to having his legacy being attached to those cheesy 90s Black and Decker Snake Lights instead of a piece gaming media enjoyed and discussed by millions of fans around the world!
If Zenimax was under contractual obligation to show the artist how his product was going to be used during the process, it's their slip up. Even in the musician agreed to license his song to the company, it's well within his rights to have a say in ensuring his music isn't used in a way that he feels is inappropriate. I'm not saying I agree with his opinion of the trailers, but as someone who is likely not a gamer, I can see how the images could be shocking.
If Zenimax was under contractual obligation to show the artist how his product was going to be used during the process, it's their slip up. Even in the musician agreed to license his song to the company, it's well within his rights to have a say in ensuring his music isn't used in a way that he feels is inappropriate. I'm not saying I agree with his opinion of the trailers, but as someone who is likely not a gamer, I can see how the images could be shocking.
Basically this, and that's all that matters. Artists/publishers/estates provision review into the agreements. If Zenimax circumvented the provision and didn't get a sign-off it's a ridiculously stupid mistake and they deserve to get fleeced for it.
I don't see why people are trying to demonize him for conducting standard business, humanoids are f#$%ing weird.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I remain unconvinced, and here's why. Dion uses UMG to license his music, and Zenimax bought the license from UMG.
Yes, the contract allegedly says the artist CAN bargain independently with the licensee. This doesn't mean the licensee MUST first obtain approval from the artist; it simply means the licensee can negotiate directly with the artist instead of going through UMG. Of course, the contract also says the artist can refuse the use of the music if no agreement is reached in those independent negotiations.
Dion is not saying he would not have consented to the use of his song in the ads. He is saying he would have bargained for more money to "safeguard himself against the potential loss of goodwill from being associated with the immoral images".
And according to Dion, that "loss of goodwill from being associated with the immoral images" has caused in excess of one million dollars in damages. I think it's going to be an uphill battle to prove that in court, which is why I stick to my position that this is a shake down, pure and simple. He's just looking for a settlement, then he will go away and continue to not care about video games or violence.
Funniest thing for me is that the song talks about him being a guy who goes from town to town to hit on girls and he doesn't care a bit about them. On the contrary, when he feels like he's falling in love, he just goes to the next town to avoid dealing with that.
But Fallout is immoral?
Cmon, it's America we are talking about. Violence in all it's facets is fine, if not glorifed. Whereas adultery is still a serious enough "crime" to give lots of managers and politicians a hard time.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Well as others have pointed out... If there was a need to get final approve from the artist and that was not obtained. He has a case, the question then only becomes why now and if it is still applicable. And since i am not Leonard French... I have no answer for that. (altho he would be a good person to ask... )
Dick or not, i agree that a deal is a deal and many artists get a raw deal to begin with.
Crap like this happens all the time. They take someones music and use it without permission. I hope he gets paid big time for this. I remember back in the 80's there was this movie that came out about some White people in Ireland forming cover band doing soul music from Black artist and how the got sued because they never asked one artist if the could use their music.
Well... they did have the right to use the music, it is just that the artist had the right to veto the content of the advert it was used in. Nobody was stealing anyone's music and he was fairly compensated.
It is more about ideology... Say for an example you are a staunch vegetarian and some big advertising house want to use your music for their client who is a food retailer. Then you might stipulate that your music can not appear in any ads for meat or meat bi-products. But it is fine to be used for ads about vegetarian food products or say... a general ad for the stores.
That is what has happened here. but with violence instead of meat....
Nothing surprises me about the music industry and its artists anymore.
I remember years ago when John Fogerty, who fronted CCR, was sued for his song the Old Man Down the Road sounding too much like Run Through the Jungle.
Basically, he was sued by his record company for sounding too much like...wait for it...himself.
Yeah... Nothing more than a money grab from an entertainer long past his prime, based on a manufactured disdain he felt he could be manipulated into cash. Pathetic, but not surprising.
Nothing surprises me about the music industry and its artists anymore.
I remember years ago when John Fogerty, who fronted CCR, was sued for his song the Old Man Down the Road sounding too much like Run Through the Jungle.
Basically, he was sued by his record company for sounding too much like...wait for it...himself.
That was something else wasn't it
Sued for plagiarizing himself.
I saw him last December in a nice small venue, he was totally awesome
Funniest thing for me is that the song talks about him being a guy who goes from town to town to hit on girls and he doesn't care a bit about them. On the contrary, when he feels like he's falling in love, he just goes to the next town to avoid dealing with that.
But Fallout is immoral?
Cmon, it's America we are talking about. Violence in all it's facets is fine, if not glorifed. Whereas adultery is still a serious enough "crime" to give lots of managers and politicians a hard time.
Well, maybe the artist finds violence to be the greater evil.
also, the writer might have been young when he wrote the song, and while Dion probably wants to capitalize on his work in order to make a living (he sang the song but didn't write it), he might not hold the same thoughts on the subject matter that he did when he first performed it. If he even cared at the time.
Or maybe it was just a character snapshot thought that might be giving the work more weight than it deserves as it's a doo wop song.
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I remain unconvinced, and here's why. Dion uses UMG to license his music, and Zenimax bought the license from UMG.
Yes, the contract allegedly says the artist CAN bargain independently with the licensee. This doesn't mean the licensee MUST first obtain approval from the artist; it simply means the licensee can negotiate directly with the artist instead of going through UMG. Of course, the contract also says the artist can refuse the use of the music if no agreement is reached in those independent negotiations.
Dion is not saying he would not have consented to the use of his song in the ads. He is saying he would have bargained for more money to "safeguard himself against the potential loss of goodwill from being associated with the immoral images".
And according to Dion, that "loss of goodwill from being associated with the immoral images" has caused in excess of one million dollars in damages. I think it's going to be an uphill battle to prove that in court, which is why I stick to my position that this is a shake down, pure and simple. He's just looking for a settlement, then he will go away and continue to not care about video games or violence.
I don't know why you keep on pushing this narrative that entities who purchase music rights for commercial use somehow have the right to circumvent the provisions of a contract with the publisher. That's unequivocally wrong unless there is language that explicitly states otherwise.
Dion more than likely sold a portion (or all) of his publishing to whoever as part of a larger catalogue deal. Part of his deal structure perhaps included stipulation that he has final say on where it's actually placed which isn't bizarre at all.
I can't speak on fault with certainty. What I am saying is if anybody ignored or forgot the artists/publisher review provision it doesn't MATTER what the language is after. It's a matter of what the damages are.
It a simple question of:
Did Zenimax or Publishing admin give the composer(s)/writer(s)/publisher(s) right to review final placement?
Did Zenimax or publishing admin give the composer(s)/writer(s)/publisher(s) review of final placement.
All the legalese from from Dions attorney is more about posturing for the compensation amount and justifying it. Normal lawyering.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Nothing surprises me about the music industry and its artists anymore.
I remember years ago when John Fogerty, who fronted CCR, was sued for his song the Old Man Down the Road sounding too much like Run Through the Jungle.
Basically, he was sued by his record company for sounding too much like...wait for it...himself.
That was something else wasn't it
Sued for plagiarizing himself.
I saw him last December in a nice small venue, he was totally awesome
He is awesome. Always will be.
Unfortunately, musicians had no business understanding back then. Record companies took advantage of it and had them sign over the rights to their songs as part of a record deal. So he didn't actually own the rights to his own song, which is how they were able to sue him.
Also, record company ownership is how Michael Jackson wound up acquiring the rights to all the Beatles songs.
On the topic of plagiarism. Song had more lives than a cat. Ernie Maresca "wrote" and recorded the song before Dion. Dion must have bought the rights. Ernie Maresca was obviously "inspired" by Leiber and Stoller who wrote Kansas City.
Ernie Maresca - The Wanderer
Kansas City - Wilbert Harrison
Song just won't die.
Dion - Ruby Baby
Though you have to remember that "rock" was still somewhat "new" so what we're hearing is more of "the feel" of music during that span of time.
It's akin to listening to Blues. You've heard of "12 Bar Blues" right? Well, that's the basis for many Blues songs. I strongly suspect what we are hearing here is exactly that, an establishment of style. They probably didn't think one bit about it other than "this is what rock sounds like".
You find that many 50's rock songs use the exact same feel and harmonic progression.
Just shootin' from the hip here but the feel of these songs are just what was going on at the time.
I also posit that if the songs were owned by the same publisher they very well could have said "use this" which only helped to perpetuate the styles.
This is something you really can't escape as an artist in music or anywhere else. Yet in music it's just part of the trade. Like many metal guitarists use harmonic minor because it sounds evil and sounds like metal. You're not going to be successful playing something that sounds like the opening of the facts of life, regardless of blistering drums and growling vocals in that genre, and this applies to basically all genres.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Bias is strong in this thread.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Though you have to remember that "rock" was still somewhat "new" so what we're hearing is more of "the feel" of music during that span of time.
It's akin to listening to Blues. You've heard of "12 Bar Blues" right? Well, that's the basis for many Blues songs. I strongly suspect what we are hearing here is exactly that, an establishment of style. They probably didn't think one bit about it other than "this is what rock sounds like".
You find that many 50's rock songs use the exact same feel and harmonic progression.
Just shootin' from the hip here but the feel of these songs are just what was going on at the time.
I also posit that if the songs were owned by the same publisher they very well could have said "use this" which only helped to perpetuate the styles.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As a composer I kind of want to slap you up-side the head and say stop it.
However, in fairness, I get what you are driving at (I think). Why not just create a song with the feel of these other songs and not have to deal with royalties?
Kind of a good question.
I think the simplest answer is that they are going for an already established/iconic feel created by the music but more so the lyrics.
This is an "iconic" song. It has a cultural weight by its very nature of being around for so long, used so many times, already in the ears of millions. Someone hears it and it evokes all sorts of thoughts/memories.
That's my guess.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
On a side note though I hope the Belmonts get something out of this. Those poor "... and the ..." people never get any respect
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
ASCAP licenses for general/broadcast play purposes. Radio stations, TV Networks, Bars, Department Stores, etc. This situation is different. The music is being used to promote the direct sale of a product commercially. For clarification when I say ASCAP doesn't license I mean as it pertains to THIS medium.
ASCAP does not license the rights to it's members music for advertisement/commercial placements. When you register works you include Composers, Writers, and Publishers who administrate the works.
The bottom line is, AGAIN, if Zenimax agreed to give the artist/publishing administrator final review WHICH IS NORMAL and they bypassed the step, they will be found in the wrong and have to pay damages.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's the version that has been commonly accepted for 58 years until earlier this year when Dion out of the blue stated that in fact it was he who flipped the coin with Richie Valens for the third seat. Now why would he wait so long to come out and make this claim? Well, Tommy Allsup was critically ill and hospitalized from complications after surgery he had which lead to his death.
In comes Dion like a cheap lawyer following a car accident trying to claim his place in Rock and Roll history my making the claim that he simply did not want to make a big deal of things previous,but now feels like it is time to clear the air about things. He claims it was him who flipped the coin. Oddly enough the only person who has ever told his version of the story was Dion. And no one else.
All I gotta say is I hope that his claim of Zenimax not being truthful about standard liscense agreement and misrepresented him about his recorded music. Otherwise it will be just another cautionary tale of a boy who cried wolf .
I don't see why people are trying to demonize him for conducting standard business, humanoids are f#$%ing weird.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes, the contract allegedly says the artist CAN bargain independently with the licensee. This doesn't mean the licensee MUST first obtain approval from the artist; it simply means the licensee can negotiate directly with the artist instead of going through UMG. Of course, the contract also says the artist can refuse the use of the music if no agreement is reached in those independent negotiations.
Dion is not saying he would not have consented to the use of his song in the ads. He is saying he would have bargained for more money to "safeguard himself against the potential loss of goodwill from being associated with the immoral images".
And according to Dion, that "loss of goodwill from being associated with the immoral images" has caused in excess of one million dollars in damages. I think it's going to be an uphill battle to prove that in court, which is why I stick to my position that this is a shake down, pure and simple. He's just looking for a settlement, then he will go away and continue to not care about video games or violence.
But Fallout is immoral?
Cmon, it's America we are talking about. Violence in all it's facets is fine, if not glorifed. Whereas adultery is still a serious enough "crime" to give lots of managers and politicians a hard time.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Dick or not, i agree that a deal is a deal and many artists get a raw deal to begin with.
This have been a good conversation
It is more about ideology... Say for an example you are a staunch vegetarian and some big advertising house want to use your music for their client who is a food retailer. Then you might stipulate that your music can not appear in any ads for meat or meat bi-products. But it is fine to be used for ads about vegetarian food products or say... a general ad for the stores.
That is what has happened here. but with violence instead of meat....
This have been a good conversation
I remember years ago when John Fogerty, who fronted CCR, was sued for his song the Old Man Down the Road sounding too much like Run Through the Jungle.
Basically, he was sued by his record company for sounding too much like...wait for it...himself.
~~ postlarval ~~
Sued for plagiarizing himself.
I saw him last December in a nice small venue, he was totally awesome
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
also, the writer might have been young when he wrote the song, and while Dion probably wants to capitalize on his work in order to make a living (he sang the song but didn't write it), he might not hold the same thoughts on the subject matter that he did when he first performed it. If he even cared at the time.
Or maybe it was just a character snapshot thought that might be giving the work more weight than it deserves as it's a doo wop song.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Dion more than likely sold a portion (or all) of his publishing to whoever as part of a larger catalogue deal. Part of his deal structure perhaps included stipulation that he has final say on where it's actually placed which isn't bizarre at all.
I can't speak on fault with certainty. What I am saying is if anybody ignored or forgot the artists/publisher review provision it doesn't MATTER what the language is after. It's a matter of what the damages are.
It a simple question of:
Did Zenimax or Publishing admin give the composer(s)/writer(s)/publisher(s) right to review final placement?
Did Zenimax or publishing admin give the composer(s)/writer(s)/publisher(s) review of final placement.
All the legalese from from Dions attorney is more about posturing for the compensation amount and justifying it. Normal lawyering.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Unfortunately, musicians had no business understanding back then. Record companies took advantage of it and had them sign over the rights to their songs as part of a record deal. So he didn't actually own the rights to his own song, which is how they were able to sue him.
Also, record company ownership is how Michael Jackson wound up acquiring the rights to all the Beatles songs.
~~ postlarval ~~
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson