Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
LOL... OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch. Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us
I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
Thanks for demonstrating it.
The EXACT same thing Big Guy. You think that makes you special? Yeah I also played on Atlantic and Chesapeake. I was never a DreadLord.. I played blue. You said you hate MMORPG PvP and like Overwatch. GOOD! Go play it! Leave the MMORPG PvP to those of us who enjoy it. It's a fairly simple concept. If you like something go do it. If you dislike something, avoid it.
And what do you think I'm doing, Mr Smartass?
Since I have a quite extensive experience of all kinds of MMORPG PvP ranging from FFA Full Loot to battlegrounds, it doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion about it, just as you do it.
So if you expect me to shut up about this topic, you are very wrong.
I love PvP, and that's why I gave up on it in MMORPGs. That game style is too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time.
But WoW is getting close to having it right, so there's hope.
So basically if you like pvp then you shouldn't play mmos? That's makes a lot of sense. You pick overwatch which is a mediocre shooter and is all about the flavor of the month, 2 char meta. I like big battles with skills/spells/team work. That is not overwatch. I do agree that pvp hasn't really been done right in mmos though, tossing in a bunch of players in an open world and flipping the pvp switch on with no objective at all gets boring fast. But please tell me the difference between that and overwatch?
Sure, but some games are doing a far better work at one or the other thing. If we are talking about equally good gameplay it is just your personal preference but in many MMO cases the PvP is a sloppy afterthought cynically added to show you have more features in the game.
There are certainly games that have done a good job at both things but I think a lot of the MMO preference towareds PvP comes from the majorities terrible PvP.
It is like choosing between a vanilla and chocolate icecream (as someone said), only that the chocolate is half melted and someone dropped it on the floor.
If we actually get a few more good PvP MMORPGs I think we will see more People enjoying PvP. It might still lean towards PvE but not at the currently huge difference.
Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
LOL... OK.. like I said.. good thing you found Overwatch. Leave the MMORPG PvP to the rest of us
I was doing Pvp in UO beta 20 years ago, what were you doing back then?
Exactly the kind of attitude the average MMORPG PvPer has. No arguments, just childish behavior. One of the major reasons why PvP MMORPGs have such a small audience.
Thanks for demonstrating it.
The EXACT same thing Big Guy. You think that makes you special? Yeah I also played on Atlantic and Chesapeake. I was never a DreadLord.. I played blue. You said you hate MMORPG PvP and like Overwatch. GOOD! Go play it! Leave the MMORPG PvP to those of us who enjoy it. It's a fairly simple concept. If you like something go do it. If you dislike something, avoid it.
And what do you think I'm doing, Mr Smartass?
Since I have a quite extensive experience of all kinds of MMORPG PvP ranging from FFA Full Loot to battlegrounds, it doesn't stop me from sharing my opinion about it, just as you do it.
So if you expect me to shut up about this topic, you are very wrong.
I love PvP, and that's why I gave up on it in MMORPGs. That game style is too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time.
But WoW is getting close to having it right, so there's hope.
Which brings us right back to my first response: "Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."
If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.
Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs. Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP. Different strokes for different folks.
If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH... heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game. It's a good game for what it is. It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine. What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online. It's closer to Madden than UO.
If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer. I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
Isn't there some kind of ego issue also involved in tolerating one of those but not the other?
To me the guy who gets too much satisfaction out of ganking the under-geared lowbees is just a different version of the lowbee who gets too upset about it.
In progression games you... umm... progress.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Which brings us right back to my first response: "Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."
If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.
Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs. Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP. Different strokes for different folks.
If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH... heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game. It's a good game for what it is. It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine. What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online. It's closer to Madden than UO.
If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer. I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.
That is true but a few of the MMOs have had far higher percentage of PvP fans then the rest.
And yeah, DaoC is one of those games, Guildwars, Eve and SWG are a few others. I would say that this point towards a lot of room for improvement with PvP MMOs, particularly ones few low percentage of PvP players.
And I still agree with Picard that an unbeatable God wacking peasants is not very fun.
I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course. Making PvE and PvP more like 2 sides of the same coins is certainly better then having a seperate system based on taunts for PvE.
MMORPG PvP should not be like Overwatch or Lol but that does not mean it is as good as it can get.
Which brings us right back to my first response: "Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."
If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.
Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs. Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP. Different strokes for different folks.
If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH... heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game. It's a good game for what it is. It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine. What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online. It's closer to Madden than UO.
If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer. I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.
That is true but a few of the MMOs have had far higher percentage of PvP fans then the rest.
And yeah, DaoC is one of those games, Guildwars, Eve and SWG are a few others. I would say that this point towards a lot of room for improvement with PvP MMOs, particularly ones few low percentage of PvP players.
And I still agree with Picard that an unbeatable God wacking peasants is not very fun.
I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course. Making PvE and PvP more like 2 sides of the same coins is certainly better then having a seperate system based on taunts for PvE.
MMORPG PvP should not be like Overwatch or Lol but that does not mean it is as good as it can get.
Fully agree. you hit the nail on the head here: "Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course."
I've said this for years. That is the true issue. AI in MMORPGs is silly.. as someone else mentioned above.. NPCs most closely resemble loot bags than guards...
Make the AI challenging and then you don't need to have boss mobs with 231121213213 HPs and you won't need to do godlike damage to have a chance.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Not until PvE actually uses something resembling semi-realistic AI.
But by all means, if standing 20 feet down a hall of "guards" who stand there while you "pull" them one at at time turns you on, go knock yourself out.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
...
That's reaching, lol
In MMORPG's. mobs of different levels are confined to specific zones. L40 players can stick to appropriate PVE zones, knowing that the mobs there are within their level range. They won't be suddenly ganked by L60 mob...
Not until PvE actually uses something resembling semi-realistic AI.
But by all means, if standing 20 feet down a hall of "guards" who stand there while you "pull" them one at at time turns you on, go knock yourself out.
Interesting. Anything that takes us away from the dull nonsense that are is "Guards" standing in a room while you slowly "pull" then in 1's and 2's to a corner. What rubbish.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
I agree but we're talking about a matter of degrees of imbalance. The progression inherent in RPGs will always have some: whether it's levels, gear or access to better skills you can minimize it but you can't remove it altogether without also removing the satisfaction of progressing which is one the biggest draws in RPGs.
Even in games like ESO where everyone has always been bolstered to max level in PVP long before they also did it for PVE, the difference is in gear and access to skills that unlock over time through use of a particular skill line.
But that's not what the incessant ESO PVP whining is all about. Even though it's a hybrid class/classless game, nerd rage focuses on those few things that are unique to a class not your own. Nerf "x" is by far the hottest discussion topic there.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG... MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site...
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
WoW actually made PvP much better lately, by making gear mostly irrelevant. That's a good start... but of course, the "ego driven" PvPers won't like it that they can no longer crush newbies with their "hard earned" superior gear.
Actually if you think that through you'd realize that the "unbalanced crap" you're referring to is no different in the PVE of most MMOs where a level 40 also has no chance to beat a level 60 mob. Why is it so much easier to grin and bear it when it's the AI of a higher level mob and not another player handing you your ass?
...
That's reaching, lol
In MMORPG's. mobs of different levels are confined to specific zones. L40 players can stick to appropriate PVE zones, knowing that the mobs there are within their level range. They won't be suddenly ganked by L60 mob...
That's not usually the case in MMORPG PVP though.
In the chaotic "open world" garbage superimposed on top of PVE games that many think of whenever PVP is mentioned, yeah mobs are segregated by level but PVP is not.
The point though is that in RPG games about progression there are dangers that you can't handle while leveling. Players accept that concept in PvE but they have a hard time with it when there's a human on the other side.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
That's not an issue, with PvP, it's not an issue with RPGs, it's an issue with the progression system.
Tell me. Suppose I were to make a game with heavy character customization and a focus on character development. However the progression system was one where you earn new skills that are not inherently more powerful than the old ones and swap them out as desired. You can also work toward developing your guild / nation in terms of building up territory, structures, NPC armies/labor forces that can killed or be taken by siege and there is gear that can make your character up to three times stronger but it degrades quickly and is lost upon death.
Same question again, but this time, your character itself can progress. It's just that your base stats that are unloseable can only make you up to twice as strong as any other player.
In what genre would you classify what I just described? Seems to me, it's quite clearly an RPG in both scenarios. If done on a massive scale it would be an MMORPG. RPGs aren't ruining MMOs or PvPs. People lack of imagination and dogmatic devotion to "the way things have always been done" is.
Until the moment you realize that PvP in most MMORPGs is unbalanced crap because of the progression system that is inherent to the RPG genre. When a level 40 has no chance in hell to beat a level 60, you know that aspect of the game is broken.
That's not an issue, with PvP, it's not an issue with RPGs, it's an issue with the progression system.
Tell me. Suppose I were to make a game with heavy character customization and a focus on character development. However the progression system was one where you earn new skills that are not inherently more powerful than the old ones and swap them out as desired. You can also work toward developing your guild / nation in terms of building up territory, structures, NPC armies/labor forces that can killed or be taken by siege and there is gear that can make your character up to three times stronger but it degrades quickly and is lost upon death.
Same question again, but this time, your character itself can progress. It's just that your base stats that are unloseable can only make you up to twice as strong as any other player.
In what genre would you classify what I just described? Seems to me, it's quite clearly an RPG in both scenarios. If done on a massive scale it would be an MMORPG. RPGs aren't ruining MMOs or PvPs. People lack of imagination and dogmatic devotion to "the way things have always been done" is.
I really hope you do build it because I'd love to see how many would enjoy an RPG with very little power progression like you're always preaching. I have my doubts.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Sure thing. I think I can get it off the ground at a level of quality people will really enjoy for about 50 million. Care to spot me the cash?
That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
I agree but we're talking about a matter of degrees of imbalance. The progression inherent in RPGs will always have some: whether it's levels, gear or access to better skills you can minimize it but you can't remove it altogether without also removing the satisfaction of progressing which is one the biggest draws in RPGs.
Even in games like ESO where everyone has always been bolstered to max level in PVP long before they also did it for PVE, the difference is in gear and access to skills that unlock over time through use of a particular skill line.
But that's not what the incessant ESO PVP whining is all about. Even though it's a hybrid class/classless game, nerd rage focuses on those few things that are unique to a class not your own. Nerf "x" is by far the hottest discussion topic there.
True, but we don't really need a perfectly even playing ground, just something that takes away some of the things that makes PvP less fun.
I think a successful MMORPG need to be in the middle between traditional PvE MMORPGs and progression less FPS and Mobas. Enough progression to be meaningful (particularly if the game also have PvE) but so little that it wont split up the player into too many tiers (most modern MMOs have 80-130 levels and a tier where people actually can play with eachothers or fight eachother would be a 5 level range or so).
20 level which each bring at least a new skill and not too many HPs would work on both playstyles. Say you start with 50 HP and get 20 times that many (1000) when you are maxed out, as an example on how the increase in power should be.
And add a specific max power level you can get from gear (25% is good but anything from 20-50% would probably work).
A level 20 would then get 20 times as much HP and at least 20 active or passive skills to play with + another 25% buff if she got the best gear avaliable. Sounds much? Compared to Wow it is nothing. And you will be able to fight with at least some chance then with people within 5 levels from you making it effectively around 4 tiers in PvP instead of around 20.
Bolstering people to max level for PvP purpose work fine in smaller setting like arenastyled PvP but for something that would be more fun on a PvP server that just is impossible.
We wont get progression and 100% fairness in a MMORPG, we have to pick one or the other and I pick progression. But we can make it less painfull and at least increase the number of interesting fights. In open PvP servers you could actually only PvP flag people 5 levels below and above you as well, with 20 levels that isn't so painfull. With 100 levels it would suck.
That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
"Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."
There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?
You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.
Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
"Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."
There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?
You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.
Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
You're being too humble. Your experience is probably above average for KS producers. You jut need to hire the right people. Matter of fact your ideas about future hires is usually part of the pitch.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think you are massively underestimating the experience of Kickstarter developers. My favorite game ever, a game I played obsessively throughout my entire time in high-school was called Freelancer. Developed by Chris Roberts.
Star Citizen Lead Dev = Chris Roberts
Ultima Online is considered one if the pioneers of the MMO genre and is greatly beloved. Lead developer was Richard Garriott.
Shroud of the Avatar Leader Developer = Richard Garriott
Go down the list of kickstarter MMOs. You will find people who worked on SWG, Ultima, Shadowbane etc. etc. etc.
By far the least qualified developer to get a Kickstarter off the ground was Ryan Dancey who still had experience working for CCP as a marketer and lots of references in the pen and paper industry.
You don't just go on kickstarter with no experience and nothing to show and ask for money. If I ever develop an MMO it will be through money I've earned through other ventures I'm a bit more qualified to start. Not through panhandling online with nothing but ideas of what would make a cool game.
pvp in a massively multiplayer game is great! Then add in the role playing aspect awesome! As long as the focus of the roles being played is who's got the biggest sword. If the focus is exploring new places and helping the local population with defeating monsters with big swords I don't see what would draw pvp players towards it?
That's what KS was made for. Just describe your ideas as you do here, buy some unity assets, make a video and go for it. The KS results should tell you all you need to know about the demand for RPG MMOs with little progression.
"Hi. My game design experience includes playing around with a game maker I forgot the name of in middle/elementary school and making custom scenarios in Age of Empires II. I have an idea for a game and all I need is 50 million dollars to pull it off."
There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?
You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.
Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
Yeah, you can't really make a good MMORPG without a good lead programmer no matter how great your ideas is. Vanguard proved that if nothing else, it had great ideas but lousy programing. It might never had become a huge hit but with a good lead programmer it would still be around.
People who do art and write story might do fine with enough talent and other experience, story guys could be writers make pen and paper RPG products or just be really good at writing and you could certainly find talented people for concept art on Deviant art but for other people you need experience in the genre or at least something close to it.
For instance, the team that coded Guildwars did code and design Warcraft 3 first, moving to a CORPG after that was no problem.
The hard part is finding a good lead programmer, they are not that common and certainly tend to be employed. The only 2 I know works at Massive (well, at least we been drinking together more then a few times but neither of them are close friends). I also know a couple of people that can code but not good enough to lead. My own coding is rather bad unless we are talking about coding industrial machines of course, that I do for a living.
So before even considering a kickstarter you need to find at least a good lead programmer and someone good at 3D studio Max or a similar program. Also, you need at least a small demo that test your basic mechanics so you know they work and have something to show people.
Unless you can get a lead designer that people will buy anything from. I personally would fund anything Strain, Kaplan or Van Caneghem would kickstart, no questions asked. I know they would give me something for my cash and 2 of those people could lead program themselves while Kaplan certainly would find someone good anyways. None of the people like that would be involved in someone elses kickstarter though and either of them could get funding from an AAA publisher anyways (a few best selling games tend to make that easier)so the point is kinda moot.
People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I prefer the imbalance in MMORPG RvR PvP , and history seems to show it was the best experience for the majority of players that were there ..UO,DAOC, SWG ,ACDarktide, Warhammer, AO, all had imbalance in class vs class .. But it also cutivated the community , made battles exciting unpredictable and the most fun i have had in any PvP .. The exact balance act we are seeing now , becomes very predictable and boring .. the irony of it ,,,
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So basically if you like pvp then you shouldn't play mmos? That's makes a lot of sense. You pick overwatch which is a mediocre shooter and is all about the flavor of the month, 2 char meta. I like big battles with skills/spells/team work. That is not overwatch. I do agree that pvp hasn't really been done right in mmos though, tossing in a bunch of players in an open world and flipping the pvp switch on with no objective at all gets boring fast. But please tell me the difference between that and overwatch?
There are certainly games that have done a good job at both things but I think a lot of the MMO preference towareds PvP comes from the majorities terrible PvP.
It is like choosing between a vanilla and chocolate icecream (as someone said), only that the chocolate is half melted and someone dropped it on the floor.
If we actually get a few more good PvP MMORPGs I think we will see more People enjoying PvP. It might still lean towards PvE but not at the currently huge difference.
"Glad you found a game you like. Some of us actually enjoy PvP in an MMORPG...
MMORPGs after all are why we are on this site..."
If you think that PvP is " too fun to waste it in poorly balanced games where you are either the unbeatable god or the powerless prey for most of the time" then that's your opinion and it explains why you enjoy E-Sport games like Overwatch.
Other people... and I know this is hard for you to comprehend... actually enjoy PvP in their MMORPGs. Some like arenas, some like Battlegrounds... some like open world PvP. Different strokes for different folks.
If you like Overwatch.. PLAY OVERWATCH... heck I have it.. I enjoy it occasionally when I want an Esport type game. It's a good game for what it is. It's not a game that I can play for long periods of time not could ever make my "main" game... but for others that's fine. What Overwatch is NOT is in anyway like an open world PvP game reminiscent of Ultima Online. It's closer to Madden than UO.
If you're wondering: DAoC was to me the very best that a PvP MMO has to offer. I will take that kind of PvP any day over Esports.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Isn't there some kind of ego issue also involved in tolerating one of those but not the other?
To me the guy who gets too much satisfaction out of ganking the under-geared lowbees is just a different version of the lowbee who gets too upset about it.
In progression games you... umm... progress.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
And yeah, DaoC is one of those games, Guildwars, Eve and SWG are a few others. I would say that this point towards a lot of room for improvement with PvP MMOs, particularly ones few low percentage of PvP players.
And I still agree with Picard that an unbeatable God wacking peasants is not very fun.
I feel that most people here assume MMORPGs must be one extreme or the other, either you use Wow insanely huge powergap as progression or you don't have one at all. If you for instance shrinked the levels down to 20 and kept 20% or so of the standard MMO progression PvP would become more fun and balanced but you still have more then enough progression.
Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course. Making PvE and PvP more like 2 sides of the same coins is certainly better then having a seperate system based on taunts for PvE.
MMORPG PvP should not be like Overwatch or Lol but that does not mean it is as good as it can get.
"Just taking a PvE game and adding open world PvP will not make a fun game unless your AIs already act human of course."
I've said this for years. That is the true issue. AI in MMORPGs is silly.. as someone else mentioned above.. NPCs most closely resemble loot bags than guards...
Make the AI challenging and then you don't need to have boss mobs with 231121213213 HPs and you won't need to do godlike damage to have a chance.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
https://www.polygon.com/2017/8/12/16138942/dota-2-bot-vs-human-international-2017
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
In MMORPG's. mobs of different levels are confined to specific zones. L40 players can stick to appropriate PVE zones, knowing that the mobs there are within their level range. They won't be suddenly ganked by L60 mob...
That's not usually the case in MMORPG PVP though.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Even in games like ESO where everyone has always been bolstered to max level in PVP long before they also did it for PVE, the difference is in gear and access to skills that unlock over time through use of a particular skill line.
But that's not what the incessant ESO PVP whining is all about. Even though it's a hybrid class/classless game, nerd rage focuses on those few things that are unique to a class not your own. Nerf "x" is by far the hottest discussion topic there.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The point though is that in RPG games about progression there are dangers that you can't handle while leveling. Players accept that concept in PvE but they have a hard time with it when there's a human on the other side.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Tell me. Suppose I were to make a game with heavy character customization and a focus on character development. However the progression system was one where you earn new skills that are not inherently more powerful than the old ones and swap them out as desired. You can also work toward developing your guild / nation in terms of building up territory, structures, NPC armies/labor forces that can killed or be taken by siege and there is gear that can make your character up to three times stronger but it degrades quickly and is lost upon death.
Same question again, but this time, your character itself can progress. It's just that your base stats that are unloseable can only make you up to twice as strong as any other player.
In what genre would you classify what I just described? Seems to me, it's quite clearly an RPG in both scenarios. If done on a massive scale it would be an MMORPG. RPGs aren't ruining MMOs or PvPs. People lack of imagination and dogmatic devotion to "the way things have always been done" is.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think a successful MMORPG need to be in the middle between traditional PvE MMORPGs and progression less FPS and Mobas. Enough progression to be meaningful (particularly if the game also have PvE) but so little that it wont split up the player into too many tiers (most modern MMOs have 80-130 levels and a tier where people actually can play with eachothers or fight eachother would be a 5 level range or so).
20 level which each bring at least a new skill and not too many HPs would work on both playstyles. Say you start with 50 HP and get 20 times that many (1000) when you are maxed out, as an example on how the increase in power should be.
And add a specific max power level you can get from gear (25% is good but anything from 20-50% would probably work).
A level 20 would then get 20 times as much HP and at least 20 active or passive skills to play with + another 25% buff if she got the best gear avaliable. Sounds much? Compared to Wow it is nothing. And you will be able to fight with at least some chance then with people within 5 levels from you making it effectively around 4 tiers in PvP instead of around 20.
Bolstering people to max level for PvP purpose work fine in smaller setting like arenastyled PvP but for something that would be more fun on a PvP server that just is impossible.
We wont get progression and 100% fairness in a MMORPG, we have to pick one or the other and I pick progression. But we can make it less painfull and at least increase the number of interesting fights. In open PvP servers you could actually only PvP flag people 5 levels below and above you as well, with 20 levels that isn't so painfull. With 100 levels it would suck.
There is something called a resume and qualifications. Notice how all the successful kickstarters had lead developers with a little thing called "previous experience"? Notice how they also had some kind of gameplay footage in their kickstarters?
You don't just go out, and post up your ideas on kickstarter with no-qualifications and no initial investment. It's a bit more complex than that.
Like I said, spot me 50 million and I'll make the game you want. And I'd start by hiring people with some actual qualifications.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Star Citizen Lead Dev = Chris Roberts
Ultima Online is considered one if the pioneers of the MMO genre and is greatly beloved. Lead developer was Richard Garriott.
Shroud of the Avatar Leader Developer = Richard Garriott
Go down the list of kickstarter MMOs. You will find people who worked on SWG, Ultima, Shadowbane etc. etc. etc.
By far the least qualified developer to get a Kickstarter off the ground was Ryan Dancey who still had experience working for CCP as a marketer and lots of references in the pen and paper industry.
You don't just go on kickstarter with no experience and nothing to show and ask for money. If I ever develop an MMO it will be through money I've earned through other ventures I'm a bit more qualified to start. Not through panhandling online with nothing but ideas of what would make a cool game.
People who do art and write story might do fine with enough talent and other experience, story guys could be writers make pen and paper RPG products or just be really good at writing and you could certainly find talented people for concept art on Deviant art but for other people you need experience in the genre or at least something close to it.
For instance, the team that coded Guildwars did code and design Warcraft 3 first, moving to a CORPG after that was no problem.
The hard part is finding a good lead programmer, they are not that common and certainly tend to be employed. The only 2 I know works at Massive (well, at least we been drinking together more then a few times but neither of them are close friends). I also know a couple of people that can code but not good enough to lead. My own coding is rather bad unless we are talking about coding industrial machines of course, that I do for a living.
So before even considering a kickstarter you need to find at least a good lead programmer and someone good at 3D studio Max or a similar program. Also, you need at least a small demo that test your basic mechanics so you know they work and have something to show people.
Unless you can get a lead designer that people will buy anything from. I personally would fund anything Strain, Kaplan or Van Caneghem would kickstart, no questions asked. I know they would give me something for my cash and 2 of those people could lead program themselves while Kaplan certainly would find someone good anyways. None of the people like that would be involved in someone elses kickstarter though and either of them could get funding from an AAA publisher anyways (a few best selling games tend to make that easier)so the point is kinda moot.
People will not fund just a good idea, you need to back it up with something that makes a finnished game likely, a good finnished game.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Just saying