The Vanguard struggle was impressive.

delete5230

The trial island hooked me. 

I remember logging in for the first time and as with all mmos, didn't have a clue.  I don't know about you, but I'm always shy at first, I keep to myself until I understand what's going on. 

The starter zone had like five or six quest to get you started then around level 3 you had "the cave".  This cave stopped me in my tracks on my first character.  I was stuck.....Couldn't do it on my own, didn't have the knowledge.  What do I do ?.... It seems to me I have to wait for another to come along.....Should I be so bold and ask for help at level 3 ?....Well I did and this set the stage.  I was totally impressed.  This "cave" at level 3 was a fond memory.  Then again at level 5 and yet again at level 10.  Yes, by level 10 I was an expert at grouping.  

When I made it past all that and dumped into the "real world"  it was more of exactly the same, a struggle.  Still trying to solo, I would come across the spider cave and encampments all over the place.  Just like level 3, I was stuck yet again, then again and again....I would sit and wait for others.  The shyness was gone, Vanguard forced it out of me....... Then came a long friends list.  

Don't get me wrong.  I still pulled off many solo actions that shouldn't have happened, and the journey was great.  Being cornered with seemingly no way out was a better feeling than any modern gimmick..... Please give me more of the same ! 

Pantheon, please have doable content on par with Vanguard  

kruler

There were some classes that just rocked and others that were weak versions of them, which did make me scratch my head a few times. For instances loved the monk, but why they hell would you play one over a Disc, who could do way more group and solo, and to be fair LOOKED like a bleeding monk.
My necro went solo 80% of the time which is normal, and its nice to have the option, but then so did my Disc, once your had all the combo,s down pat it was a one class wreckin ball.

But my favourite was my Goblin Diplomat who during intense discussions of state would say "I'm not your daddy"

delete5230

kruler said:

There were some classes that just rocked and others that were weak versions of them, which did make me scratch my head a few times. For instances loved the monk, but why they hell would you play one over a Disc, who could do way more group and solo, and to be fair LOOKED like a bleeding monk.
My necro went solo 80% of the time which is normal, and its nice to have the option, but then so did my Disc, once your had all the combo,s down pat it was a one class wreckin ball.

But my favourite was my Goblin Diplomat who during intense discussions of state would say "I'm not your daddy"

My first was a Cleric.  I picked it just because it sounded cool. I thought just log in with any class and have fun like WoW.  I didn't know the deepness of the game and the important choices in the struggle to stay alive.

Elderknight

Vanguard was great but had so many bugs and wasn't anywhere finished remember running through many areas without mobs going ok, they didn't have time for this, but was not the only game with this Conan warhammer to name a few, but had great potential.

delete5230

Elderknight said:

Vanguard was great but had so many bugs and wasn't anywhere finished remember running through many areas without mobs going ok, they didn't have time for this, but was not the only game with this Conan warhammer to name a few, but had great potential.

This is true, but the struggle was amazing. 

I often talk about World of Warcraft being one of the best video games ever made.  But Vanguard fighting, strategy, classes and inter-twining of grouping makes it the best ever made for this aspect, its ingenious. 

I understand mmos like EQ1 and FF11 were also, but sadly I've never played them. Original D&D Online was a close runner up, however it was not as popular because of the instance make up of the game.  

A renaissance to this game play done modern and done right could capture a new market.

Scorchien

delete5230 said:

Elderknight said:

Vanguard was great but had so many bugs and wasn't anywhere finished remember running through many areas without mobs going ok, they didn't have time for this, but was not the only game with this Conan warhammer to name a few, but had great potential.

This is true, but struggle was amazing. 

I often talk about World of Warcraft being one of the best video games ever made.  But Vanguard fighting, strategy, classes and inter-twining of grouping makes it the best ever made for this aspect, its ingenious. 

I understand mmos like EQ1 and FF11 were also, but sadly I've never played them. 

A renaissance to this game play done modern and done right could capture a new market.

To date IMO , Vanguard still has the best assembled group of High Fantasy classes made , Hopefully BM is creating and/or drawing inspiration for similar class mechanics in Pantheon

Kyleran

Pffft, the trial island wasn't added until a year or two after release.

The real struggle was trying to enjoy the game at launch and wade through its many issues.

Although players are far more forgiving these days, were VG to launch today with a early access label on it I'm sure it would be a big hit, despite the production issues. 

Wizardry

VG was simply an attempt to improve on EQ2 but Brad and team did not learn or address ideas that needed to be fixed improved,he was imo simply cashing in on the EQ franchise popularity.

It was still a great game,all the EQ series was great as well but that was back then,when game design was rather newish for mmorpg's.Now a days that sort of stuff,hell ALL of the old school stuff is not good enough,we can do MUCH better and have the technology to do much better.

The problem i see is not only $$$ but the dev leads themselves.I feel that if even the money was unlimited there are some people with ridiculous ideas that do not belong in an immersive type game like a role playing game.BDO was one of those type games,it turned me right off,i wouldn't hire that team to make me a game of Yhatzee.
I also detest seeing newish or incoming games using old school games to feed off of new game sales,example DAOC>Camelot Unchained.
The one exception to EFFORT was FFXIV,yes they tried and spent a LOT of money just on a newer game engine alone,likely more money spent just on the idea and engine than most games will cost in total.However even Square Enix has investors stock holders several board members whop are greedy bastards ,so once the budget gets too big it is time to rush a game.

So here we  are in 2017 and not one AAA mmorpg and i do not see one incoming for a long time yet.Too many factors from weird system designers,lack of money,then there is always the fact they see everyday not in circulation is the possibility of millions of dollars so rushed games will always be the norm.

Thebeasttt

In VG you could solo to max level with every class. Hopefully Pantheon takes nothing from VG other than some of the class design.

Wizardry

Thebeasttt said:

In VG you could solo to max level with every class. Hopefully Pantheon takes nothing from VG other than some of the class design.

Having played a MUCH more diverse game than most "FFXI"it is possible to create a full on grouping game ,creating the community while still allowing solo game play,NOBODY else has been able to mimic what FFXI proved could be done.

So YES you could solo but no not with EVERY class and it still took a lot of added work and choices and was very slow to solo but the OPTION was there and to me more options are better for everyone.

First of all you as a developer/system designer have to put a LOT of thought into your class designs and the abilities and spells they use.This is what made FFXI so great,NOBODY has mimic the Ninja class or the Beastmaster class or even the Summoner class.The way it was done allowed people to solo "somewhat"very risky,dangerous because one death could lose an hours worth of xp gains.

Designs just have to "make sense",obviously more players in a group give you more options,abilities and spells so obviously it should be better in a group.Form the right combination of solo class/s and you could solo but would take a lot more effort with less options.

Wizardry

My gut feeling....Brad and team like most people and gamer in the industry seem to always relate game design with EQ or Wow,nobody thinks outside the box or above and beyond nor do people question or critique ideas,they tend to simply copy ideas.
So my gut says we likely don't see enough to warrant a NEW game,i have a strong feeling this will be same old new skin and that would be sad,at least for me as i long for an aggressive new build,game design without straight up copying.

But hey at this point in my gaming career,if i at the very least do not see one yellow marker over a npc head,i could jump for joy and just give them my money.

Adamantine

You could solo everything on the starter island, except for the final dungeon. You would always be in danger of dying though. Still, it wasnt so hard that it was impossible, depending upon class and luck and paying attention, yes you might die, but I think I never died more often than twice in any of these places, and then it would be done.

The final dungeon really needed a duo on many classes, to make it a hell of a lot easier. I remember I could solo that one at least on a level 10 Paladin, quite easily, too, though. Probably some more classes, but on a Paladin with their good defense, heal, and offense at that point, the final dungeon definitely was no issue.

I played the starter island douzen of times and it was really well done.

delete5230

Adamantine said:

You could solo everything on the starter island, except for the final dungeon. You would always be in danger of dying though. Still, it wasnt so hard that it was impossible, depending upon class and luck and paying attention, yes you might die, but I think I never died more often than twice in any of these places, and then it would be done.

The final dungeon really needed a duo on many classes, to make it a hell of a lot easier. I remember I could solo that one at least on a level 10 Paladin, quite easily, too, though. Probably some more classes, but on a Paladin with their good defense, heal, and offense at that point, the final dungeon definitely was no issue.

I played the starter island douzen of times and it was really well done.

Totally agree,

I know you loved Vanguard from past post.  You're one of the many that looked past the mistakes and found the TRUE pleasures of what Vanguard had become...... The botched history of the game was a tragic one that later became a real gem. 

Sure, as a few had pointed out the starter island could be soloed with experience of the game.  However the basic raw idea of it was to get players to socialize.  It worked too !