Notice not much to say about Saga of Lucimia?It is not nor is it ever going to be a triple A game,it shows sings of a very small team with very little ability to make a great game.I took away only oen thing i agreed with watching a Saga video and that was when the two narrators talked about Wow being both good and bad for he industry,i said to myself ,a pretty good analogy but Saga left me with zero impressions.
I'm neutral on SoL for now. There's a lot about it I like "on paper" - but we know how that often works out. There are also things that, "on paper" make me think "really? They think that's a good idea? Hmmm.. interesting" - those things could end up pleasantly surprising me.
Here's something to bear in mind, and it's something I keep in mind...
The MMOs that so many of us "old farts" refer back to when talking about how much better the genre used to be, *were developed by people who had never developed a MMORPG either*. They had no idea what did or didn't work. They also didn't have the plethora of tools and middleware and resources and experience represented in documentation, tutorials, etc. as we have now. That gives them an advantage not many others have.
Yet, those old-school devs went on to create experiences that many still remember fondly, and still play in many cases, despite all the newer and supposedly "better" options on the market now.
One thing that SoL is doing that I admire and appreciate is that they're trying something different. They're not following what's popular, or what the "bandwagon jumpers" expect (though I've seen many others trying to get them to hop on those bandwagons, in their forums, etc). They're creating what they feel is the best MMORPG for their game, their world and their desired experience. This is more in line with how SE approached FFXI's design, rather than the other way around, which they did with FFXIV (shoe-horning FF fan service into a standard themepark template).
I believe, and Renfail can correct me if I'm wrong, but the world of SoL is based on their own, long-running tabletop RPG games of the past. So, if I'm correct in that, they already have a large, fleshed out, and detailed world to work with. The world design part is already done, and they know the world intimately. That must also be a huge help when creating something like this from scratch.
But, I do remain neutral on it. It might be great to me, it might be not so great to me. I'll know when I get to play and experience it for myself. I don't need a MMO to be popular to enjoy it; many of the games I get into, folks haven't even heard of lol.
Notice not much to say about Saga of Lucimia?It is not nor is it ever going to be a triple A game,it shows sings of a very small team with very little ability to make a great game.I took away only oen thing i agreed with watching a Saga video and that was when the two narrators talked about Wow being both good and bad for he industry,i said to myself ,a pretty good analogy but Saga left me with zero impressions.
I'm neutral on SoL for now. There's a lot about it I like "on paper" - but we know how that often works out. There are also things that, "on paper" make me think "really? They think that's a good idea? Hmmm.. interesting" - those things could end up pleasantly surprising me.
Here's something to bear in mind, and it's something I keep in mind...
The MMOs that so many of us "old farts" refer back to when talking about how much better the genre used to be, *were developed by people who had never developed a MMORPG either*. They had no idea what did or didn't work. They also didn't have the plethora of tools and middleware and resources and experience represented in documentation, tutorials, etc. as we have now. That gives them an advantage not many others have.
Yet, those old-school devs went on to create experiences that many still remember fondly, and still play in many cases, despite all the newer and supposedly "better" options on the market now.
One thing that SoL is doing that I admire and appreciate is that they're trying something different. They're not following what's popular, or what the "bandwagon jumpers" expect (though I've seen many others trying to get them to hop on those bandwagons, in their forums, etc). They're creating what they feel is the best MMORPG for their game, their world and their desired experience. This is more in line with how SE approached FFXI's design, rather than the other way around, which they did with FFXIV (shoe-horning FF fan service into a standard themepark template).
I believe, and Renfail can correct me if I'm wrong, but the world of SoL is based on their own, long-running tabletop RPG games of the past. So, if I'm correct in that, they already have a large, fleshed out, and detailed world to work with. The world design part is already done, and they know the world intimately. That must also be a huge help when creating something like this from scratch.
But, I do remain neutral on it. It might be great to me, it might be not so great to me. I'll know when I get to play and experience it for myself. I don't need a MMO to be popular to enjoy it; many of the games I get into, folks haven't even heard of lol.
So, we'll see.
That's one of the references we go back to internally, over and over again; most of the MMORPGs we all loved and cherished from the golden age of the "early days", were indeed built by people who largely had zero experience building them...because they had never been done before. They were folks who had the passion and some form of relevant experience that allowed them to be capable of working on some small component of the game, and together they achieved what a goal that many said was impossible at the time.
We get to come into it some nearly 20 years later and build upon that framework, and it's a hell of a lot easier because of all that framework. We have documentation, Slack channels, third party tools and software and asset stores and the like that allow us to build (slowly) our own game leveraging resources that wouldn't have been available 20 years ago, which at the time required a team to have literally dozens of artists and programmers alone (40+ person teams and tens of millions in salaries).
We're about to step into the world again at our annual team meeting in Austin, and I've actually recruited my brother this year (who's on the world building team) to help with the campaign creation. And Volume I will be out in its entirety (as a novel) next year (with three more volumes to follow).
He's also involved in the OTHER project we have going on within Stormhaven Studios, which is the development of the tabletop version of the game. This originated as a homebrewn D&D campaign back with my high-school buddies in the late 90s, and has evolved since then.
Having all of that lore built up over the years has absolutely shaved time off the writing requirement, as there's no world building required.
If we went with what was popular we'd be free to play with a cash shop, PVP-only, third-person only.
I'll speak as myself, a passionate gamer, and not the community manager of Saga of Lucimia
There is several thing that I've noticed and that I love about this project:
The Devs in Stormheaven are genuinly passionated and honnest. I believe most devs in most games and company are genuine and passionated, and would be honnest if they could; But the company that hire them will not allow them, and they are restrained. this is not the case in Saga, and this independence is a true blessing!
Saga of Lucimia is developed the way the team want it. Not the way the possible future players want. Not the way the industry want. Not the way that would ensure the most popularity or success materialy. This project is aimed for a certain type of players or mood. And this is what ensure the integrity of the project. It will probably not appeal to the masses, but it will appeal to players that are seaking a certain type of experience. Something quite unique and forgotten. I believe in this project mostly for that reason. And there is plenty of players that want to play this game.
Starting with me. I want to venture in beautiful landscape and get lost on the way with my team! Will it be the only game I'll be playing? Certainly not! there is many other games I'll want to play alongside Saga Of Lucimia, cause Saga can not fullfill all of my desires as gamer, as any other game can not fullfill all of my desires. Saga of Lucimia will be an unique experience, really close to what a tabletop campaign should be in a virtual pixalised world. We are in the early stage of development and we can already experience the feeling of adventures with the limited build we have.
Tonight and tomorow, there will be several stream of our test if you want to see for yourself our progress.
nothing wrong with being excited for a upcoming game but blind fanboyism hurts a product more than you think.
You know, I'm not sure that is really true. Can you point to a specific example where one person's "blind fanboyism" on a forum such as this actually hurt a game in some way?
True, if developers create an echo chamber for feedback it could be a problem.
Near as I can tell every single game out in existence today, successful or not launched regardless and without any input from me or most every poster here.
At best I may have convinced a small number of people to try or avoid a particular game, but in the overall scheme of things the impact is negligible.
Same is true here, SOL devs are making the game they wish which is exactly the correct course to take, especially when targeting a very specific niche.
The devs at CCP have done a good job staying focused and building what they want, and not deviating much from their central vision.
Not to say there hasn't been missteps, certainly there has been, but overall EVE today still caters to the same niche it started with 14 years ago.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The devs at CCP have done a good job staying focused and building what they want, and not deviating much from their central vision.
So you believe a game with 70% players living in high-sec is a game CCP wanted to build...?
The correct course to take is to stop doing things that do not work, despite what you actually want. That is how WoW and EVE managed to grow - they were not affraid to make bold moves and change their game to appeal to more players because without players all their effort is moot.
If you want developers to build a game they want, there are better examples, Darkfall, a game that has failed twice, easily comes to my mind. That is what you get for not adapting and making a game for yourself instead of your players - a dead game.
nothing wrong with being excited for a upcoming game but blind fanboyism hurts a product more than you think.
You know, I'm not sure that is really true. Can you point to a specific example where one person's "blind fanboyism" on a forum such as this actually hurt a game in some way?
True, if developers create an echo chamber for feedback it could be a problem.
Near as I can tell every single game out in existence today, successful or not launched regardless and without any input from me or most every poster here.
At best I may have convinced a small number of people to try or avoid a particular game, but in the overall scheme of things the impact is negligible.
Same is true here, SOL devs are making the game they wish which is exactly the correct course to take, especially when targeting a very specific niche.
The devs at CCP have done a good job staying focused and building what they want, and not deviating much from their central vision.
Not to say there hasn't been missteps, certainly there has been, but overall EVE today still caters to the same niche it started with 14 years ago.
Okay well, it creates a unreal expectation of what the game is IRL vs what it is to the general public. You'd be suprised how fast things become fact online. There are several examples I point at, Anything by Bethesda (ive been guilty of blind fanboyism in the past), Bioware, random games like BDO, Archage, No Man's Sky (50% Fanboys/50% Sean Murray), Tera, For Honor ..all get/got fanboyed in a crazy way..even before launch.
I can name several more but the main point is all these games BEFORE launch have unreal expectations, but once people get the product and the "TRUTHS" start pouring in before you know it, people are dropping off the game like flies simply because it wasn't "what they thought it was going to be" That hurts the product to me because it makes it look like the company cant be trusted to deliver what they promised.
I say if something is special its going to shine, no pre hype needed. Devs focus too much on marketing these days and not the game. Its tiring tbh.
Edit: btw im not hating on Renfail and team for the specific game, I wish you guys nothing but success and for the record it sounds cool on paper
im just wary of fanboyism ive been on both sides like most of us here, not saying you guys are doing this, but please dont feed into blind fanboyism, keep focused on delivering a great product. Lots of devs let pre hype get to their heads and that's why you see bs like pre alphas for 100 bucks or pre alphas with unfulfilled promises that last for years on end.. anyway that's my take on it.. More power to you guys
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
nothing wrong with being excited for a upcoming game but blind fanboyism hurts a product more than you think.
You know, I'm not sure that is really true. Can you point to a specific example where one person's "blind fanboyism" on a forum such as this actually hurt a game in some way?
True, if developers create an echo chamber for feedback it could be a problem.
Near as I can tell every single game out in existence today, successful or not launched regardless and without any input from me or most every poster here.
At best I may have convinced a small number of people to try or avoid a particular game, but in the overall scheme of things the impact is negligible.
Same is true here, SOL devs are making the game they wish which is exactly the correct course to take, especially when targeting a very specific niche.
The devs at CCP have done a good job staying focused and building what they want, and not deviating much from their central vision.
Not to say there hasn't been missteps, certainly there has been, but overall EVE today still caters to the same niche it started with 14 years ago.
I'd say that a lot of the "hate" that games like Star Citizen gets is because of the way people feel the need to defend it. Just an example... other games have the same white knight defenders, but every time they reply to a "GAME X IS SO BAD" or "GAME Y IS A SCAM" thread they just bump the topic. They perpetuate arguments that would simply fade away.
Then there is the expectation setting. Fans like the OP set the bar so high for a game like this that it will be impossible to hit. Why not just make it realistic? When it turns out that the game inevitably is not the genre-savior it just creates disappointment with what it is NOT as opposed to enjoyment of what it IS... which hopefully is a pretty cool, throw-back type niche game focused on group play.
Not even going to talk about the echo-chamber effect but if you need an example just look at PFO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
Here's something to bear in mind, and it's something I keep in mind...
The MMOs that so many of us "old farts" refer back to when talking about how much better the genre used to be, *were developed by people who had never developed a MMORPG either*. They had no idea what did or didn't work. They also didn't have the plethora of tools and middleware and resources and experience represented in documentation, tutorials, etc. as we have now. That gives them an advantage not many others have.
Yet, those old-school devs went on to create experiences that many still remember fondly, and still play in many cases, despite all the newer and supposedly "better" options on the market now.
One thing that SoL is doing that I admire and appreciate is that they're trying something different. They're not following what's popular, or what the "bandwagon jumpers" expect (though I've seen many others trying to get them to hop on those bandwagons, in their forums, etc). They're creating what they feel is the best MMORPG for their game, their world and their desired experience. This is more in line with how SE approached FFXI's design, rather than the other way around, which they did with FFXIV (shoe-horning FF fan service into a standard themepark template).
I believe, and Renfail can correct me if I'm wrong, but the world of SoL is based on their own, long-running tabletop RPG games of the past. So, if I'm correct in that, they already have a large, fleshed out, and detailed world to work with. The world design part is already done, and they know the world intimately. That must also be a huge help when creating something like this from scratch.
But, I do remain neutral on it. It might be great to me, it might be not so great to me. I'll know when I get to play and experience it for myself. I don't need a MMO to be popular to enjoy it; many of the games I get into, folks haven't even heard of lol.
So, we'll see.
We get to come into it some nearly 20 years later and build upon that framework, and it's a hell of a lot easier because of all that framework. We have documentation, Slack channels, third party tools and software and asset stores and the like that allow us to build (slowly) our own game leveraging resources that wouldn't have been available 20 years ago, which at the time required a team to have literally dozens of artists and programmers alone (40+ person teams and tens of millions in salaries).
We're about to step into the world again at our annual team meeting in Austin, and I've actually recruited my brother this year (who's on the world building team) to help with the campaign creation. And Volume I will be out in its entirety (as a novel) next year (with three more volumes to follow).
He's also involved in the OTHER project we have going on within Stormhaven Studios, which is the development of the tabletop version of the game. This originated as a homebrewn D&D campaign back with my high-school buddies in the late 90s, and has evolved since then.
Having all of that lore built up over the years has absolutely shaved time off the writing requirement, as there's no world building required.
If we went with what was popular we'd be free to play with a cash shop, PVP-only, third-person only.
Maybe next year =P
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
There is several thing that I've noticed and that I love about this project:
The Devs in Stormheaven are genuinly passionated and honnest. I believe most devs in most games and company are genuine and passionated, and would be honnest if they could; But the company that hire them will not allow them, and they are restrained. this is not the case in Saga, and this independence is a true blessing!
Saga of Lucimia is developed the way the team want it. Not the way the possible future players want. Not the way the industry want. Not the way that would ensure the most popularity or success materialy. This project is aimed for a certain type of players or mood. And this is what ensure the integrity of the project. It will probably not appeal to the masses, but it will appeal to players that are seaking a certain type of experience. Something quite unique and forgotten. I believe in this project mostly for that reason. And there is plenty of players that want to play this game.
Starting with me. I want to venture in beautiful landscape and get lost on the way with my team! Will it be the only game I'll be playing? Certainly not! there is many other games I'll want to play alongside Saga Of Lucimia, cause Saga can not fullfill all of my desires as gamer, as any other game can not fullfill all of my desires.
Saga of Lucimia will be an unique experience, really close to what a tabletop campaign should be in a virtual pixalised world. We are in the early stage of development and we can already experience the feeling of adventures with the limited build we have.
Tonight and tomorow, there will be several stream of our test if you want to see for yourself our progress.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
True, if developers create an echo chamber for feedback it could be a problem.
Near as I can tell every single game out in existence today, successful or not launched regardless and without any input from me or most every poster here.
At best I may have convinced a small number of people to try or avoid a particular game, but in the overall scheme of things the impact is negligible.
Same is true here, SOL devs are making the game they wish which is exactly the correct course to take, especially when targeting a very specific niche.
The devs at CCP have done a good job staying focused and building what they want, and not deviating much from their central vision.
Not to say there hasn't been missteps, certainly there has been, but overall EVE today still caters to the same niche it started with 14 years ago.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The correct course to take is to stop doing things that do not work, despite what you actually want. That is how WoW and EVE managed to grow - they were not affraid to make bold moves and change their game to appeal to more players because without players all their effort is moot.
If you want developers to build a game they want, there are better examples, Darkfall, a game that has failed twice, easily comes to my mind. That is what you get for not adapting and making a game for yourself instead of your players - a dead game.
I can name several more but the main point is all these games BEFORE launch have unreal expectations, but once people get the product and the "TRUTHS" start pouring in before you know it, people are dropping off the game like flies simply because it wasn't "what they thought it was going to be" That hurts the product to me because it makes it look like the company cant be trusted to deliver what they promised.
I say if something is special its going to shine, no pre hype needed. Devs focus too much on marketing these days and not the game. Its tiring tbh.
Edit: btw im not hating on Renfail and team for the specific game, I wish you guys nothing but success and for the record it sounds cool on paper
im just wary of fanboyism ive been on both sides like most of us here, not saying you guys are doing this, but please dont feed into blind fanboyism, keep focused on delivering a great product. Lots of devs let pre hype get to their heads and that's why you see bs like pre alphas for 100 bucks or pre alphas with unfulfilled promises that last for years on end.. anyway that's my take on it.. More power to you guys
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Then there is the expectation setting. Fans like the OP set the bar so high for a game like this that it will be impossible to hit. Why not just make it realistic? When it turns out that the game inevitably is not the genre-savior it just creates disappointment with what it is NOT as opposed to enjoyment of what it IS... which hopefully is a pretty cool, throw-back type niche game focused on group play.
Not even going to talk about the echo-chamber effect but if you need an example just look at PFO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018