Fighting against toxicity is expecting to rise the ocean level by peeing on it. Unless you make something that motivates to people to be positive is a wasted effort
Bingo.
When you create an environment that breeds toxicity - you aren't going to change by "fighting it".
Kind of like saying "We are going to end violence" - and then you go and beat up people to end it.
Yeah....
No. You can stop toxicity by identifying and severely punishing offenders, simple as that.
Not necessarily easy or cheap to do, but is very doable.
That doesnt work long term.
Its like the war on drugs, see how well that works, severly punishing offenders didnt do shit.
You severly punish offenders in a game, they are back in 5 min on a new account.
Punishment doesnt change people, it only changes short term behavior, after which they regress
The likelihood of getting caught is far more effective a deterrent than how severe the punishment.
So policing can work, but you've got to put enough resources in it to change the perception of the playerbase that if you do engage in harassment, you will be noted and punished accordingly. The severity of the punishment need only offset what is to be gained by engaging in the behavior.
Well the very premise of these fps's is competitive play versus another player. Blizzard KNOWS this is an automatic field for toxicity,that is why they did not add any chit chat inside of hearthstone,you have to be a streamer or it is total silence.
The entire philosophy of Blizzard's games is to create an atmosphere of competing and to have a platform to brag about it.This is done via rankings/ratings/ladders.Sure you can often see some good old friendly people but i have seen those same exact people sometimes get snarky when losing,like trying to make the winner seem like an ass-hat just because he/she won.In other words SORE LOSERS and this happens on a VERY high scale throughout gaming but this is how devs seek out loads of spending ,in order to compete at the highest level.
it is always pointing to an end result of money and NOT just for fun.If this was for fun,remove the ranks,remove any and all bragging platforms and then see how popular these games are. Point is that Blizzard helps to FEED the toxicity and then tells people to play nice lol.Does Kaplan honestly think when people play to possibly gain ranks to get noticed by sponsors and teams they are there to play nice?
So Blizzard wants to create the hostile atmosphere ,wants the loads of money that comes with it,but claims it doesn't want that atmosphere.Kaplan reminds me of all those people that like to live under a rock or in a bubble,they ONLY want society to pat them on the back,tell them how great they are or don't come near me.To me those people are very selfish,arrogant and ignorant at the same time.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Thing is, when I become toxic it's usually due to some fucker that decided to play attack torb into 2-3 tanks. Or when I get 2-3 Mercy one-tricks in my team and they can't play anything else at the SR they are at. That's fucking bullshit. Fucking boosted imbeciles.
Games like those above just make me regret starting Overwatch because I start feeling like I'm wasting my time. The enemy team stomps us, it's not funny. There's no fun in getting ganged because half of your team is made up of retarded chimps and die as soon as the fucking doors open.
This is what breeds toxicity Blizzard. Grouping decent people with imbeciles who do nothing but throw. Or DPS insta-pickers. Once I feel like I'm wasting my time, without getting ANY fun whatsoever in return, I become super freaking toxic.
No punishment they have in store for me will change that. I have 3 accounts in high masters ffs ...
P.S: Deathmatch mode certainly helps to get some enjoyment out of the game after having 2-3 cancerous maps in a row
+++Your post basically sums up the reason people become toxic in mostly every single moba, fps, pvp game out there and it is flawed game/hero design/matchmaking. What you wrote is magic and should be seen by every game developer out there who deals with PVP.
Blizzard needs to stop spending time worrying about the feelings of snowflakes and start spending more time on the next WOW expansion, I mean jesus christ its TIME FOR NEW CONTENT ALREADY!!!
Jeff Kaplan should look in the mirror whenever he laments the level of toxicity in online games since he was one of the people who got the ball rolling on that.
Fighting against toxicity is expecting to rise the ocean level by peeing on it. Unless you make something that motivates to people to be positive is a wasted effort
Bingo.
When you create an environment that breeds toxicity - you aren't going to change by "fighting it".
Kind of like saying "We are going to end violence" - and then you go and beat up people to end it.
Yeah....
No. You can stop toxicity by identifying and severely punishing offenders, simple as that.
Not necessarily easy or cheap to do, but is very doable.
That doesnt work long term.
Its like the war on drugs, see how well that works, severly punishing offenders didnt do shit.
You severly punish offenders in a game, they are back in 5 min on a new account.
Punishment doesnt change people, it only changes short term behavior, after which they regress
The likelihood of getting caught is far more effective a deterrent than how severe the punishment.
So policing can work, but you've got to put enough resources in it to change the perception of the playerbase that if you do engage in harassment, you will be noted and punished accordingly. The severity of the punishment need only offset what is to be gained by engaging in the behavior.
Policing does work - but punishment is not a deterrent longterm as it doesn't change the behavior.
There's been a lot of research in psychology done of effectiveness of punishment - and the bottom line is it does not change the behavior at all
The reason why policing works - is just like in the experiments - people learn to avoid the source of punishment - but the behavior remains unchanged.
Well if you wanna get technical, we're all selfish animals. But that's like going out of your way to note that dogs have fur.
Even so, we've decided as a society some behaviors are worth policing. Just because it goes against our lizard brains and we can't change those lizard brains, it dosent mean it isn't worth policing and deterring.
Thing is, when I become toxic it's usually due to some ****** that decided to play attack torb into 2-3 tanks. Or when I get 2-3 Mercy one-tricks in my team and they can't play anything else at the SR they are at. That's ****** ******. ****** boosted imbeciles.
Games like those above just make me regret starting Overwatch because I start feeling like I'm wasting my time. The enemy team stomps us, it's not funny. There's no fun in getting ganged because half of your team is made up of retarded chimps and die as soon as the ****** doors open.
This is what breeds toxicity Blizzard. Grouping decent people with imbeciles who do nothing but throw. Or DPS insta-pickers. Once I feel like I'm wasting my time, without getting ANY fun whatsoever in return, I become super freaking toxic.
No punishment they have in store for me will change that. I have 3 accounts in high masters ffs ...
P.S: Deathmatch mode certainly helps to get some enjoyment out of the game after having 2-3 cancerous maps in a row
No, it's PEOPLE LIKE YOU who make games toxic! Bad players can take the fun out of playing, but if that "makes" you become toxic, IT'S YOUR FAULT.
I remember when I played City of Heroes, not only was it nearly 100% non-toxic, the other players made me feel welcome. People would invite you to team up within minutes, having never met you or your character before. Sometimes I would be feeling down and apologize for my character not being all that helpful, and rather than "What's with you?" I would get "Oh, mental controllers are great!" "You're doing fine," that sort of thing.
Of course, that was a game where we were all playing heroes, co-op. [sigh]
Thing is, when I become toxic it's usually due to some ****** that decided to play attack torb into 2-3 tanks. Or when I get 2-3 Mercy one-tricks in my team and they can't play anything else at the SR they are at. That's ****** ******. ****** boosted imbeciles.
Games like those above just make me regret starting Overwatch because I start feeling like I'm wasting my time. The enemy team stomps us, it's not funny. There's no fun in getting ganged because half of your team is made up of retarded chimps and die as soon as the ****** doors open.
This is what breeds toxicity Blizzard. Grouping decent people with imbeciles who do nothing but throw. Or DPS insta-pickers. Once I feel like I'm wasting my time, without getting ANY fun whatsoever in return, I become super freaking toxic.
No punishment they have in store for me will change that. I have 3 accounts in high masters ffs ...
P.S: Deathmatch mode certainly helps to get some enjoyment out of the game after having 2-3 cancerous maps in a row
No, it's PEOPLE LIKE YOU who make games toxic! Bad players can take the fun out of playing, but if that "makes" you become toxic, IT'S YOUR FAULT.
Jokes on you. After gaining like 30 SR in a 9 round map of Hanamura, going on to lose them the very next game due to attack torb who refuses to switch is fucking bollocks. When you git gut you'll see.
I have nothing against Torbs actually, even got carried by one few nights ago. However, if it doesn't fucking work, you should probably use Overwatch's CORE MECHANIC and FUCKING SWITCH eh?
Jeff Kaplan should look in the mirror whenever he laments the level of toxicity in online games since he was one of the people who got the ball rolling on that.
Are you serious?! I loved that post of Jeff and he was right.
Plus, this two are way to different. He was ranting because EQ had a lot of bugs back in the days , making some important features unplayable.
Here, we are talking about a very , very different "problem".
So yeah! You should look in the mirror and say "..why did I just post that? It has nothing to do with the topic" ...
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Jeff Kaplan should look in the mirror whenever he laments the level of toxicity in online games since he was one of the people who got the ball rolling on that.
I remember when I played City of Heroes, not only was it nearly 100% non-toxic, the other players made me feel welcome. People would invite you to team up within minutes, having never met you or your character before. Sometimes I would be feeling down and apologize for my character not being all that helpful, and rather than "What's with you?" I would get "Oh, mental controllers are great!" "You're doing fine," that sort of thing.
Of course, that was a game where we were all playing heroes, co-op. [sigh]
CoH had an AMAZING community. A large part of that was how the game was designed though. No super harsh death penalties; hell, "debt" earned you badges too! No competition over loot, everyone got their own. None of the elements that usually turn people into shitheads were present.
Super competitive games like LoL and OW are ALWAYS going to breed this kind of behavior, since they draw players that only care about winning, who in turn often draw players who like to troll their teams and get a rise out of these "srs gamers". And everything in between of course.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Every game designed like OW has the same problem, and I'm not talking about the objectives or the mechanics, I'm talking about forced team-play with strangers on a team of just enough people that every single play, that every single player makes, is crucial and/or matters to achieve victory. There's too little room for people to experience these games at their own pace, with different or unique motives.
I think trying to fix the problem short of banning people with impunity, which would cost Blizzard more than I'm absolutely positive they're willing to spend while potentially damaging future revenue, is probably impossible. We're talking about combating a specific and repetitive human response to stimuli. You have to rebuild the model in order to create noticeable change.
That's why I play Overwatch without text-chat or voice-chat enabled. I really don't care if it bothers people that I refuse to communicate, the odds are against that interaction being favorable with people from the internet I do not know. It really made a huge difference in my ability to enjoy the game.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I am not the most adept person when I play these games and am quite used to getting yelled at, I just ignore it. Sometimes you have a good team, sometimes you don't. Unless someone is really egregious, it is not worth the time to report them.
Every game designed like OW has the same problem, and I'm not talking about the objectives or the mechanics, I'm talking about forced team-play with strangers on a team of just enough people that every single play, that every single player makes, is crucial and/or matters to achieve victory. There's too little room for people to experience these games at their own pace, with different or unique motives.
I think trying to fix the problem short of banning people with impunity, which would cost Blizzard more than I'm absolutely positive they're willing to spend while potentially damaging future revenue, is probably impossible. We're talking about combating a specific and repetitive human response to stimuli. You have to rebuild the model in order to create noticeable change.
That's why I play Overwatch without text-chat or voice-chat enabled. I really don't care if it bothers people that I refuse to communicate, the odds are against that interaction being favorable with people from the internet I do not know. It really made a huge difference in my ability to enjoy the game.
I think it has more to do with gameplay that attracts multiple types of players. WoW is notoriously toxic at this point and I always seen it due to the fact that they're basically putting roleplayers, achievement hunters, those who only care about loot, hardcore 24/7 raiders, need a lot breaks for my kid parents, I'm just here to chat, and casual players all in the same room. There's going to be a ton of animosity. These are all vastly different styles of play.
Overwatch is no different. A lot of players, like myself, are just there to have a good time and could care less about winning. Put my group in with the groups solely focused on winning and it's not going to be a pleasant experience for either group. This leads to a lot of rage.
Fighting against toxicity is expecting to rise the ocean level by peeing on it. Unless you make something that motivates to people to be positive is a wasted effort
Bingo.
When you create an environment that breeds toxicity - you aren't going to change by "fighting it".
Kind of like saying "We are going to end violence" - and then you go and beat up people to end it.
Yeah....
No. You can stop toxicity by identifying and severely punishing offenders, simple as that.
Not necessarily easy or cheap to do, but is very doable.
That doesnt work long term.
Its like the war on drugs, see how well that works, severly punishing offenders didnt do shit.
You severly punish offenders in a game, they are back in 5 min on a new account.
Punishment doesnt change people, it only changes short term behavior, after which they regress
The likelihood of getting caught is far more effective a deterrent than how severe the punishment.
So policing can work, but you've got to put enough resources in it to change the perception of the playerbase that if you do engage in harassment, you will be noted and punished accordingly. The severity of the punishment need only offset what is to be gained by engaging in the behavior.
Policing does work - but punishment is not a deterrent longterm as it doesn't change the behavior.
There's been a lot of research in psychology done of effectiveness of punishment - and the bottom line is it does not change the behavior at all
The reason why policing works - is just like in the experiments - people learn to avoid the source of punishment - but the behavior remains unchanged.
Well if you wanna get technical, we're all selfish animals. But that's like going out of your way to note that dogs have fur.
Even so, we've decided as a society some behaviors are worth policing. Just because it goes against our lizard brains and we can't change those lizard brains, it dosent mean it isn't worth policing and deterring.
Oh I agree - and in reality - this is PR by Blizzard, as they can't really do anything to change player's behavior - unless they wanted to drastically alter the core gameplay which would be a financial suicide. So no they are not going to do that.
So Blizzard does what all game companies do - swing the ban hammer, give warnings and temp bans - but they know - it's all just short term stuff, as the real toxic players just come back on other accounts.
Yeah, they pay Blizz 60 bucks for each perma ban. You can also ban each account of IP. Blizz is smart here, idiot who pay 60 buck to get banned over and over is not.
People complain too much. "Toxic" no matter how you toss it out there is subjective. Someone calling me trash or worse in a game has never and never will bother me. I read it, I mute them if I can and move on. It has never ruined a game. Major games also have things in place to catch and punish toxic AFK, which is really the one thing that gets me. If words in a chat box on the screen are ruining your game, the game must not be that good to begin with.
Or you can show some empathy towards other players. Somebody would dont give a duck and other would be seriously upset. Your reactions is no more valid than someone else. And it is not for you to decide which reaction is better.
Seriously the best way to counter toxic players is simply ignore em, you'll never get rid of toxicity in games, doesn't matter if you swing a ban hammer or not they'll still pop up.
I've never reported a player in any game in 17 years of online gaming for being toxic because that would require me to take time to write a report and I refuse to waste my time reporting someone I couldn't care less about saying things that have zero effect on me.
Even better way is to actually be polite to them and watch as they implode as they fail to get a rise out of you.
One of the biggest problems with a game becoming popular and having a large playerbase, is that you will always get the 'few' whose behaviour is not really acceptable anywhere.
That doesn't mean you need to give them a free pass though. I feel that's been a disturbing trend in our culture since the rise of social media and constant connectivity. Society seems to have adopted a laissez faire attitude towards bad or immoral behavior. It's good to send the signal that there may be consequences if you're rude and an ass.
This. So much this.
Yes, there will always be folks who attempt to cheat the system or act unethically, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to root out the behavior or call it what it is.
It's easier to police that when it's a B2P game. F2P games are a whole different ballgame.
I fully support it though, people have lost all manners online.
One of the biggest problems with a game becoming popular and having a large playerbase, is that you will always get the 'few' whose behaviour is not really acceptable anywhere.
Yeah but in online shooter games its more than a few. Back in 2000 it wasn't so bad. But today if offensive racist sexist talk bothers you don't play these games ever.
Comments
So policing can work, but you've got to put enough resources in it to change the perception of the playerbase that if you do engage in harassment, you will be noted and punished accordingly. The severity of the punishment need only offset what is to be gained by engaging in the behavior.
Blizzard KNOWS this is an automatic field for toxicity,that is why they did not add any chit chat inside of hearthstone,you have to be a streamer or it is total silence.
The entire philosophy of Blizzard's games is to create an atmosphere of competing and to have a platform to brag about it.This is done via rankings/ratings/ladders.Sure you can often see some good old friendly people but i have seen those same exact people sometimes get snarky when losing,like trying to make the winner seem like an ass-hat just because he/she won.In other words SORE LOSERS and this happens on a VERY high scale throughout gaming but this is how devs seek out loads of spending ,in order to compete at the highest level.
it is always pointing to an end result of money and NOT just for fun.If this was for fun,remove the ranks,remove any and all bragging platforms and then see how popular these games are.
Point is that Blizzard helps to FEED the toxicity and then tells people to play nice lol.Does Kaplan honestly think when people play to possibly gain ranks to get noticed by sponsors and teams they are there to play nice?
So Blizzard wants to create the hostile atmosphere ,wants the loads of money that comes with it,but claims it doesn't want that atmosphere.Kaplan reminds me of all those people that like to live under a rock or in a bubble,they ONLY want society to pat them on the back,tell them how great they are or don't come near me.To me those people are very selfish,arrogant and ignorant at the same time.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
+++Your post basically sums up the reason people become toxic in mostly every single moba, fps, pvp game out there and it is flawed game/hero design/matchmaking. What you wrote is magic and should be seen by every game developer out there who deals with PVP.
Aloha Mr Hand !
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4g2ler/jeff_tigole_kaplan_forum_rant_from_his_eq_days/
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Even so, we've decided as a society some behaviors are worth policing. Just because it goes against our lizard brains and we can't change those lizard brains, it dosent mean it isn't worth policing and deterring.
No, it's PEOPLE LIKE YOU who make games toxic! Bad players can take the fun out of playing, but if that "makes" you become toxic, IT'S YOUR FAULT.
Of course, that was a game where we were all playing heroes, co-op. [sigh]
I have nothing against Torbs actually, even got carried by one few nights ago. However, if it doesn't fucking work, you should probably use Overwatch's CORE MECHANIC and FUCKING SWITCH eh?
Are these based off actual bad behavior, or because players didn't agree with a class being played or argued with another player?
Does Blizzard actually keep proof of harassment or can plalyers just report people and a player gets punished?
Plus, this two are way to different. He was ranting because EQ had a lot of bugs back in the days , making some important features unplayable.
Here, we are talking about a very , very different "problem".
So yeah! You should look in the mirror and say "..why did I just post that? It has nothing to do with the topic" ...
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
How long ago was that? 17 years ago? 16?
And Im guessing you wouldnt someone digging stuff up that you said 17 years ago right? No skeletons in your closet?
Super competitive games like LoL and OW are ALWAYS going to breed this kind of behavior, since they draw players that only care about winning, who in turn often draw players who like to troll their teams and get a rise out of these "srs gamers". And everything in between of course.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I think trying to fix the problem short of banning people with impunity, which would cost Blizzard more than I'm absolutely positive they're willing to spend while potentially damaging future revenue, is probably impossible. We're talking about combating a specific and repetitive human response to stimuli. You have to rebuild the model in order to create noticeable change.
That's why I play Overwatch without text-chat or voice-chat enabled. I really don't care if it bothers people that I refuse to communicate, the odds are against that interaction being favorable with people from the internet I do not know. It really made a huge difference in my ability to enjoy the game.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Overwatch is no different. A lot of players, like myself, are just there to have a good time and could care less about winning. Put my group in with the groups solely focused on winning and it's not going to be a pleasant experience for either group. This leads to a lot of rage.
^ Most common one.
I've never reported a player in any game in 17 years of online gaming for being toxic because that would require me to take time to write a report and I refuse to waste my time reporting someone I couldn't care less about saying things that have zero effect on me.
Even better way is to actually be polite to them and watch as they implode as they fail to get a rise out of you.
Yes, there will always be folks who attempt to cheat the system or act unethically, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to root out the behavior or call it what it is.