The word niche does not mean anything bad at all. Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word. It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one. That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone. Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.
Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are
Niche does mean something bad:
"denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."
"small" - that's the bad part
Well, you did locate and stop looking once you found a definition which included the word small. In fact you seem to have located the only dictionary (unsourced, Google's? ) which uses small instead of "specific"
So niches are specific, but can be quite large. It could be argued even WOW appeals to a specific niche, albeit quite a large one.
Other sources:
Merriam/Webster " the situation in which a business's products or services can succeed by being sold to a particular kind or group of people"
Dictionary.com
adjective
pertaining to or intended for a market niche; having specific appeal
Oxford Collocations Dictionary
(business) an opportunity to sell a particular product to a particular group of peopleThey spotted a niche in the market, with no serious competition.a niche marketthe development of niche marketing (still no reference to small)
YourDictionary.Com
The definition of a niche is a specialized part of a market for products or services or a little separated area in a room.
An example of a niche is a market for beagle products, which is a niche in the market of dog products as a whole.
Or the Paragon of definition, Urban Dictionary 2. An area of the market specializing in one type of product or service
I just googled it - it was the first thing I did. Didn't look any further as google definitions are probably by far what the most people use.
Google just pulls defintions that it finds - it's not like they have their own - the one that shows up on google is Oxford's dictionary:
The word niche does not mean anything bad at all. Too many people are attaching subjective views to the word. It means it will cater to a specific playstyle which is what the devs have set out to do from day one. That is how you get a better game, by not trying to do this one game that does everything for everyone. Wish more devs would realize this and stop trying to make games that make everyone happy while not making a good one at anything.
Oh but in terms of wanting to have a game that sells millions of copies (which I know that Pantheon is not aiming for) - but many MMOs are
Niche does mean something bad:
"denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."
"small" - that's the bad part
In your view if a game is stable and doing great with it's niche it is a bad thing because it is small. Small does not equal bad if you were not promoting larger than life. If a developer is being realistic with their design and expectations a small game can outshine the larger than life failures that are produced every year. A small game that runs for years is a hell of a lot better than a large failure that only runs for a couple years and is shut down.
A game designed from the beginning to be a niche is already ahead of the game. It knows what it's player base is most likely and will design the game around that itself and end up a huge success. If the game is also a great game and gets a good rep that niche could turn into something larger and end up pulling in more than a large failure.
Once again I have to disagree that small does not equal bad. A great game developed with a smaller budget can outdo many of the massive failures we have today and actually take in more in the long run because of it. So again smaller especially talking about what this thread was about Pantheon this is a good thing not a bad thing.
We are talking about 2 entirely different things
You are talking about niche that was planned from the beginning, and delivered a sustainable game that can stay in the black with a small playerbase.
I am talking about MMO that were designed for millions but under delivered and ended up having a few thousand players - in my case "small" is not what the developers hoped - hence BAD
My example was simply to show how in 100mil+ dollar AAA MMO - niche is BAD - it was an example of how niche can indeed be a bad thing in games that have a huge budget and need a massive playerbase to pay for the dev cost.
If a game is being design for millions I wouldn't say it was developed for a niche to start with. Assigning the term after development isn't how it works really when talking about development. Either you made your game for a niche like a PVE group based only, or a full loot PVP group, from the start with that in mind. With that in mind the developers should have some idea of what their target number is also for them to consider it a success. Not all MMO's try to pull in the millions like some other games do.
Hell no game will ever pull in the millions like WoW did ever again most likely, right place and right time was what did that.
Those AAA games that failed were not designed to be niche games. They were designed most likely for every play style and failed at most of it, which is why they only have a small player base left. That is were if they had developed to a niche instead they would have came out on top, because their game would have been built from the ground up with a particular play style.
Just throwing the word niche in to describe a small player base that is left in a failed game isn't correct either, because that small base could have all different kinds of players that found something they liked which isn't all the same. When you talk about niche in gaming it is talking about a particular playstyle not just small player base. That is were me and you are disagreeing.
I'm ready for Niche games, every online PVE focused game I play now is exactly the same in presentation; super easy, casual tutorial content up until max level/end game... everyone rush to end game effortlessly... new expansion is released; previous challenging content is nerfed and old items made irrelevant to get you to the new end game tier... rinse and repeat... I'm over this crap. We need niche games.
I'm ready for Niche games, every online PVE focused game I play now is exactly the same in presentation; super easy, casual tutorial content up until max level/end game... everyone rush to end game effortlessly... new expansion is released; previous challenging content is nerfed and old items made irrelevant to get you to the new end game tier... rinse and repeat... I'm over this crap. We need niche games.
I don't know about this. It seems to me that a game made by the same people that created those easy versions that you don't like, leading severely understaffed teams, with nebulous schedules, and functioning on a shoestring budget aren't likely to be the solution. I agree that new ideas are needed, perhaps desperately so, but looking to the past to find those ideas just doesn't seem the best way to get new and innovative games to play. Squeezing lemons doesn't usually produce chardonnay.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm ready for Niche games, every online PVE focused game I play now is exactly the same in presentation; super easy, casual tutorial content up until max level/end game... everyone rush to end game effortlessly... new expansion is released; previous challenging content is nerfed and old items made irrelevant to get you to the new end game tier... rinse and repeat... I'm over this crap. We need niche games.
I don't know about this. It seems to me that a game made by the same people that created those easy versions that you don't like, leading severely understaffed teams, with nebulous schedules, and functioning on a shoestring budget aren't likely to be the solution. I agree that new ideas are needed, perhaps desperately so, but looking to the past to find those ideas just doesn't seem the best way to get new and innovative games to play. Squeezing lemons doesn't usually produce chardonnay.
The pursuit of whats new and innovative is a mirage. Doing away with features that defined the genre and bringing in "the new", was exactly what got us where we are today: vapid single player mmos that offer more back-patting than challenge, more convenience than immersion, and a lack of a reason to keep playing, leaving virtual worlds virtually empty.
You talk about old design as if it's incompatible with the new, but the old is only the foundation. Pantheon will have plenty of new stuff or improved old stuff built on top of it.
I'm ready for Niche games, every online PVE focused game I play now is exactly the same in presentation; super easy, casual tutorial content up until max level/end game... everyone rush to end game effortlessly... new expansion is released; previous challenging content is nerfed and old items made irrelevant to get you to the new end game tier... rinse and repeat... I'm over this crap. We need niche games.
I don't know about this. It seems to me that a game made by the same people that created those easy versions that you don't like, leading severely understaffed teams, with nebulous schedules, and functioning on a shoestring budget aren't likely to be the solution. I agree that new ideas are needed, perhaps desperately so, but looking to the past to find those ideas just doesn't seem the best way to get new and innovative games to play. Squeezing lemons doesn't usually produce chardonnay.
The pursuit of whats new and innovative is a mirage. Doing away with features that defined the genre and bringing in "the new", was exactly what got us where we are today: vapid single player mmos that offer more back-patting than challenge, more convenience than immersion, and a lack of a reason to keep playing, leaving virtual worlds virtually empty.
You talk about old design as if it's incompatible with the new, but the old is only the foundation. Pantheon will have plenty of new stuff or improved old stuff built on top of it.
I will agree with you that EQ1 was a solid foundation. Where we disagree is the 'changes' and 'the new' were a problem. Genres have to evolve to remain relevant. I can even agree somewhat that subsequent games made some decisions that appear to be 'bad' to a segment of the player base. Even EQ1 made some of those 'bad' choices. Mercenaries, definitely. Alternate Advancement, to a degree. But everyone threw the baby out with the bathwater by reinventing the genre over and over, with no designer trying to build on the shoulders of giants.
I don't agree at all that the evolution of the genre is the problem. I think the problem is in the other direction -- the genre hasn't grown enough. Pantheon may be a good step for the genre to take, but it's fifteen years too late and really doesn't attempt to expand the concept of MMORPG games enough. It's going to play very much like EQ1 did in 1999-2000. VR hasn't shown anything that EQ1 has already done. It may look nicer, but in the end, there will be a pile of 6 people beating on one mob at a time. The sameness will be a hurdle for them to attract new players. Sure, it will attract some old-timers, but the question ultimately remains, will there be enough players for the game to be fiscally successful.
Convenience isn't a bad feature, inherently. It does allow players to immerse themselves in more of the content, without a mind-numbing trek through 'safe' territory. Progression in MMORPGs has been linear, and with progression comes further distances to more dangerous lands for worthy content. So, secondary and tertiary hubs become necessary to prevent players from having to run back to their home city to bank and visit merchants.
In a game as big as EQ1 currently is, a run from Qeynos to Loping Plains is easy for a 75th level to negotiate without using PoK books, but who really wants to run for 40 to 90 minutes in order to play? That's a long run -- Qeynos to Qeynos Hills to West Karana to North Karana to East Karana to Beholders Maze to Runnyeye to Misty Thicket to Rivervale to Kithicor Forest to Commonlands (new) to East Freeport to West Freeport to Ocean of Tears (boat) to Butcherblock Mountains to Greater Feydark to Lesser Feydark to Steamfont Mountains to Loping Plains. I don't know that anyone would do that run more than once before breaking down and using the Qeynos to PoK (book) to Frontier Mountains (book) to Loping Plains route. Yes, you could stand around in Qeynos begging for a druid port to Frontier Mountains, but how many druids hang around Qeynos waiting to port people around? I'd wager than it would be faster to run the long way.
Okay, EQ1 expansions have been developed with the convenience of PoK in mind. Maybe that wasn't in the best interest of some people. Yes, there's no direct route from any of the home cities to some expansions like Seeds of Destruction. The game outgrew the overland zone concept because there just weren't enough places to expand the maps, and partially because the players wouldn't have accepted too many 18-zone trips in order to find things to fight. Convenience became a necessary and wanted feature.
A group of veterans pleading for 'immersion over convenience', blaming anything 'new and innovative', and shouting down anyone advising for 'realistic expectations' should never drive the entire genre back into the stone age, but that's what appears to be happening with Pantheon and its followers on this site.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The pursuit of whats new and innovative is a mirage. Doing away with features that defined the genre and bringing in "the new", was exactly what got us where we are today: vapid single player mmos that offer more back-patting than challenge, more convenience than immersion, and a lack of a reason to keep playing, leaving virtual worlds virtually empty.
You talk about old design as if it's incompatible with the new, but the old is only the foundation. Pantheon will have plenty of new stuff or improved old stuff built on top of it.
I will agree with you that EQ1 was a solid foundation. Where we disagree is the 'changes' and 'the new' were a problem. Genres have to evolve to remain relevant. I can even agree somewhat that subsequent games made some decisions that appear to be 'bad' to a segment of the player base. Even EQ1 made some of those 'bad' choices. Mercenaries, definitely. Alternate Advancement, to a degree. But everyone threw the baby out with the bathwater by reinventing the genre over and over, with no designer trying to build on the shoulders of giants.
I don't agree at all that the evolution of the genre is the problem. I think the problem is in the other direction -- the genre hasn't grown enough.
You seem to think my remarks were merely subjective, but mmos are clearly not in a good way in 2017. Not only are less people playing them, but their design has encouraged transience. In the name of making things more accessible, players are now able to complete content that takes years to create, in a matter of weeks. This is objectively bad, and runs contrary to the original intent of online role playing games, which was persistence and establishing a community among virtual inhabitants of a fantasy world.
Pantheon may be a good step for the genre to take, but it's fifteen years too late and really doesn't attempt to expand the concept of MMORPG games enough. It's going to play very much like EQ1 did in 1999-2000. VR hasn't shown anything that EQ1 has already done. It may look nicer, but in the end, there will be a pile of 6 people beating on one mob at a time. The sameness will be a hurdle for them to attract new players. Sure, it will attract some old-timers, but the question ultimately remains, will there be enough players for the game to be fiscally successful.
Convenience isn't a bad feature, inherently. It does allow players to immerse themselves in more of the content, without a mind-numbing trek through 'safe' territory. Progression in MMORPGs has been linear, and with progression comes further distances to more dangerous lands for worthy content. So, secondary and tertiary hubs become necessary to prevent players from having to run back to their home city to bank and visit merchants.
In a game as big as EQ1 currently is, a run from Qeynos to Loping Plains is easy for a 75th level to negotiate without using PoK books, but who really wants to run for 40 to 90 minutes in order to play? ...
The rest of your comments are a total strawman, as EQ has always had a form of fast travel by the way of portals. It's up to the player to interact with players in order to utilize that convenience.
A group of veterans pleading for 'immersion over convenience', blaming anything 'new and innovative', and shouting down anyone advising for 'realistic expectations' should never drive the entire genre back into the stone age, but that's what appears to be happening with Pantheon and its followers on this site.
That's a cute way of putting it, but I can just as easily say the current bunglings of mainstream games are the those who have really moved things backwards. I'm also not against people having the option to play a more casual MMO that allows players to succeed with less time devotion. You on the other hand are outwardly hostile to the alternative.
If you can't keep people playing your game, flashy graphics or other new mechanics don't really matter, now do they?
Well, a lot of people are interested in this game for a lot of the throw back aspects, included in that the thought of no cash shop (unless this has changed, but I have not seen it), not f2p (sub only), large open world dungeons (very limited instancing). I don't have to have book meditation to the level of beginning EQ...Some things aren't needed, but a lot of people are looking forward to many of these older aspects, in a new game, along with some newer things (they say boss mechanics and such will be newer and have a set of random scripts, so make them not the exact same fight, but maybe 3-5 different fights that you have to figure out, probably pretty quickly).
We will not know till we see it, but I personally want a large world, numerous starting cities, lots of faction stuff, good pve/dungeons...I am not a huge fan of the floor lighting up (telling you to move), everything quest hub, lfg tool in a lot of its current makeup (making games feel like a lobby game in a instance), I am ok with some instant travel, but I don't want it to be everywhere (Sure, don't need people to run 20-30 minutes, but 5-10 if you are going to the other side of the world isn't too crazy imo).
We will see what they do, but some people do not want this to turn into just another new mmo, with all the same mechanics and 'problems' of everything else coming out. If people want all modern, they have a lot to chose from. Pantheon will have to balance old school, with enough modern to get old and new players.
Comments
I could settle this argument and will all be happy.
I'll give into Pantheon being niche, knowing 90% of players will be playing a niche game and 10% will be playing mainstream.
Being hung up on a word is arbitrary and their is no linear, in other words, it is what it is.
Hell no game will ever pull in the millions like WoW did ever again most likely, right place and right time was what did that.
Those AAA games that failed were not designed to be niche games. They were designed most likely for every play style and failed at most of it, which is why they only have a small player base left. That is were if they had developed to a niche instead they would have came out on top, because their game would have been built from the ground up with a particular play style.
Just throwing the word niche in to describe a small player base that is left in a failed game isn't correct either, because that small base could have all different kinds of players that found something they liked which isn't all the same. When you talk about niche in gaming it is talking about a particular playstyle not just small player base. That is were me and you are disagreeing.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You talk about old design as if it's incompatible with the new, but the old is only the foundation. Pantheon will have plenty of new stuff or improved old stuff built on top of it.
I don't agree at all that the evolution of the genre is the problem. I think the problem is in the other direction -- the genre hasn't grown enough. Pantheon may be a good step for the genre to take, but it's fifteen years too late and really doesn't attempt to expand the concept of MMORPG games enough. It's going to play very much like EQ1 did in 1999-2000. VR hasn't shown anything that EQ1 has already done. It may look nicer, but in the end, there will be a pile of 6 people beating on one mob at a time. The sameness will be a hurdle for them to attract new players. Sure, it will attract some old-timers, but the question ultimately remains, will there be enough players for the game to be fiscally successful.
Convenience isn't a bad feature, inherently. It does allow players to immerse themselves in more of the content, without a mind-numbing trek through 'safe' territory. Progression in MMORPGs has been linear, and with progression comes further distances to more dangerous lands for worthy content. So, secondary and tertiary hubs become necessary to prevent players from having to run back to their home city to bank and visit merchants.
In a game as big as EQ1 currently is, a run from Qeynos to Loping Plains is easy for a 75th level to negotiate without using PoK books, but who really wants to run for 40 to 90 minutes in order to play? That's a long run -- Qeynos to Qeynos Hills to West Karana to North Karana to East Karana to Beholders Maze to Runnyeye to Misty Thicket to Rivervale to Kithicor Forest to Commonlands (new) to East Freeport to West Freeport to Ocean of Tears (boat) to Butcherblock Mountains to Greater Feydark to Lesser Feydark to Steamfont Mountains to Loping Plains. I don't know that anyone would do that run more than once before breaking down and using the Qeynos to PoK (book) to Frontier Mountains (book) to Loping Plains route. Yes, you could stand around in Qeynos begging for a druid port to Frontier Mountains, but how many druids hang around Qeynos waiting to port people around? I'd wager than it would be faster to run the long way.
Okay, EQ1 expansions have been developed with the convenience of PoK in mind. Maybe that wasn't in the best interest of some people. Yes, there's no direct route from any of the home cities to some expansions like Seeds of Destruction. The game outgrew the overland zone concept because there just weren't enough places to expand the maps, and partially because the players wouldn't have accepted too many 18-zone trips in order to find things to fight. Convenience became a necessary and wanted feature.
A group of veterans pleading for 'immersion over convenience', blaming anything 'new and innovative', and shouting down anyone advising for 'realistic expectations' should never drive the entire genre back into the stone age, but that's what appears to be happening with Pantheon and its followers on this site.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
That's a cute way of putting it, but I can just as easily say the current bunglings of mainstream games are the those who have really moved things backwards. I'm also not against people having the option to play a more casual MMO that allows players to succeed with less time devotion. You on the other hand are outwardly hostile to the alternative.
If you can't keep people playing your game, flashy graphics or other new mechanics don't really matter, now do they?
We will not know till we see it, but I personally want a large world, numerous starting cities, lots of faction stuff, good pve/dungeons...I am not a huge fan of the floor lighting up (telling you to move), everything quest hub, lfg tool in a lot of its current makeup (making games feel like a lobby game in a instance), I am ok with some instant travel, but I don't want it to be everywhere (Sure, don't need people to run 20-30 minutes, but 5-10 if you are going to the other side of the world isn't too crazy imo).
We will see what they do, but some people do not want this to turn into just another new mmo, with all the same mechanics and 'problems' of everything else coming out. If people want all modern, they have a lot to chose from. Pantheon will have to balance old school, with enough modern to get old and new players.