What causes Star Citizen to have so much suspicion toward it?

TheScavenger

We all know Star Citizen gets a lot of hate, and even recently I decided to refund my donation. However, what exactly causes Star Citizen to have so much hate and suspicion toward it? Look at Pantheon, it barely gets any hate at all and yet its very much looked forward to MMO.

Is it the developers that cause it? Is it because Chris Roberts is seemingly liked a used cars salesman and offering the game to end all games (if so, that is definitely a reason to have suspicion). But Chris Roberts has made amazing games before, so it isn't like he never made a game and does have experience.

For me, I think the biggest thing is them focusing on making money. Every time I read about it, its about a new ship for sale. When it should be focused on making the game, not focused on making money and making the game second. Especially since they already got so much money from backers to begin with. That is a difference with say Pantheon, which is focused on making the game and not worrying so much about money. Maybe part of that is mismanaging money by Chris Roberts (who HAS been known to not manage very well).

What are your guys thoughts? What causes you to have suspicion or doubts against Star Citizen? or are you on the other side, and you feel that the game has no issues at all, and there is nothing to worry about at all?

blorpykins

Most of it is just coming from haters.  There efforts in crowd funding, all the concept ship sales, seem more above board than any other game I've experienced following the same crowdfunding model.  They have a subscription model that gives legit perks and they're on top of social media.  Outside of having a 3rd party reporter on-sigh CIG offices, they're pretty transparent.

Remember when Derek Smart promised to use $1M of his own money to investigate CIG... yeah, that never happened.

Elsabolts

The Swiss banking system.

Kyleran

Its simple, its the money of course, a ton has been donated and is being spent, much more is at stake.

Toss in some gigantic egos in the SC drama and passions run higher.

Brad for the most part has remained very low profile, CR, not so much he's a showman 

Azaron_Nightblade

SC's scope. It's a very ambitious game. And IF they live up to all the promises they've made, it could be a real revolutionary MMO for once. Also, Pantheon isn't even a blip on the radar of the average MMO player. It's a title that failed its Kickstarter and had to look for funding elsewhere. That's how little most people care about it.

rpmcmurphy

I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things about this project, its fans and Chris Roberts in particular that one could talk about as the reason for all the drama that surrounds this game.

Perhaps the easiest thing is to look at the results of 5 years and $150+ million...

Balmong

rpmcmurphy said:

I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things about this project, its fans and Chris Roberts in particular that one could talk about as the reason for all the drama that surrounds this game.

Perhaps the easiest thing is to look at the results of 5 years and $150+ million...

The kicker is though, 5 years isn't unheard of in the video game industry. The issue comes into play with the fact that everyone has been following this since day one. Other games you get a showing at E3, and then 1-2 years later you get the game, with little to no advertisement till they are prepared to launch. 

Look at CD Projekt Rd, Cyberpunk 2077 was announced in 2012 with a trailer in 2013. We haven't gotten much in the way of info since then, not even a release date beyond "when it's ready". But people are content and excited for it, "out of sight, out of mind" definitely applies here.

WalkinGlenn

There are just too many red flags and such to get into imho. Not only that but as soon as you start speaking negative about this game the usual suspects do anything and everything to derail the threat, while walking that fine line between jail and a ban.

As far as Derek Smart goes... he has made some good points here and there. Unfortunately for the most part hes pretty much "fake news" when it comes to Star Citizen. Sheit.... CNN and MSNBC call HIM for tips! Lol

Vrika

It's unrealistic to expect that a Kickstarter could make the game faster or cheaper than an established gaming company. A Kickstarter might have some good ideas about what kind of game to make and what features they want, but expecting that they're more effective at making a game is like expecting that a miracle will happen this time.

Too few of Star Citizen's ideas are about how to make a better game with less. Too many of them are about making more complex, more time-consuming, more technically demanding, and more expensive game project than anyone has made ever before.

frostymug

Chris Roberts.

If there is anyone in gaming that should forever have a publisher leaning over their shoulder to get things done, it is him. 

Freelancer was pretty much an abject failure with a handful of somewhat working systems that needed polish and couldn't tie together, whilst way over budget and time (sound familiar?) until Microsoft stepped in and reigned it in. A lot of the revolutionary features were pared down or removed, but a decent game came of it once he was kicked to the curb.

Chris Roberts then effectively disappeared from game production. Until SC. Selling almost exactly the same dreams as Freelancer. Without the golden parachute. From the sound of it, with almost all the same issues.

Very unlikely any publisher is going to jump in to finish it up this time since they will have nothing invested and no real prospect of sufficient income, considering most of it has already been gathered. There is a small population of people waiting to see how it goes, but most people who are interested are already in. And not too many people who are interested in the niche space sim genre haven't heard of it yet.

That's it for me anyways. Not so much suspicion as skepticism. He's obviously spending money on development and doing something here. I just have doubts that it will be enough to call a solid game before it all gets squandered away by him chasing every shiny.

FrodoFragins

you don't need to make a SC post every day ...

MadFrenchie

Balmong said:

rpmcmurphy said:

I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things about this project, its fans and Chris Roberts in particular that one could talk about as the reason for all the drama that surrounds this game.

Perhaps the easiest thing is to look at the results of 5 years and $150+ million...

The kicker is though, 5 years isn't unheard of in the video game industry. The issue comes into play with the fact that everyone has been following this since day one. Other games you get a showing at E3, and then 1-2 years later you get the game, with little to no advertisement till they are prepared to launch. 

Look at CD Projekt Rd, Cyberpunk 2077 was announced in 2012 with a trailer in 2013. We haven't gotten much in the way of info since then, not even a release date beyond "when it's ready". But people are content and excited for it, "out of sight, out of mind" definitely applies here.

No.  They're content because CD Projekt Red isn't selling in-game assets for thousands of dollars to support the development of the game, and because CDPR has released multiple quality titles as a studio.

MaxBacon

There's no need for a thread every day about pretty much the same discussion y'know...

Vrika said:

It's unrealistic to expect that a Kickstarter could make the game faster or cheaper than an established gaming company. A Kickstarter might have some good ideas about what kind of game to make and what features they want, but expecting that they're more effective at making a game is like expecting that a miracle will happen this time.

Too few of Star Citizen's ideas are about how to make a better game with less. Too many of them are about making more complex, more time-consuming, more technically demanding, and more expensive game project than anyone has made ever before.

When comparing to those companies it's when it realizes they didn't have the same conditions.

From taking years to build up the studios and team behind the game, to having to heavily work their engine to fit the needs of the game, also for years. And especially, not having a proper budget, just a crowdfund that they could never imagine would reach this scale.

Over that, they are making 2 proper games, the SP campaign, and the MMO forcing resources to fluctuate a lot.

For SC to have released by now they would have had to cut everything they wanted to do to what their engine supported instead of refactoring/developing tech, the moment the scope increased what they wanted to do wouldn't work out with the stock code they had available.

Octagon7711

frostymug said:

Chris Roberts.

If there is anyone in gaming that should forever have a publisher leaning over their shoulder to get things done, it is him. 

Freelancer was pretty much an abject failure with a handful of somewhat working systems that needed polish and couldn't tie together, whilst way over budget and time (sound familiar?) until Microsoft stepped in and reigned it in. A lot of the revolutionary features were pared down or removed, but a decent game came of it once he was kicked to the curb.

Chris Roberts then effectively disappeared from game production. Until SC. Selling almost exactly the same dreams as Freelancer. Without the golden parachute. From the sound of it, with almost all the same issues.

Very unlikely any publisher is going to jump in to finish it up this time since they will have nothing invested and no real prospect of sufficient income, considering most of it has already been gathered. There is a small population of people waiting to see how it goes, but most people who are interested are already in. And not too many people who are interested in the niche space sim genre haven't heard of it yet.

That's it for me anyways. Not so much suspicion as skepticism. He's obviously spending money on development and doing something here. I just have doubts that it will be enough to call a solid game before it all gets squandered away by him chasing every shiny.

I think a lot of people who are interested are setting back and waiting to see how the games develop.  

TheScavenger

FrodoFragins said:

you don't need to make a SC post every day ...

yeah, there isn't much more I can think of about posting on SC (for a while anyway). I was just curious why it may get so much hate or suspicion toward it, compared to other MMOs that aren't released yet (like Pantheon).

But the responses in this thread make sense, especially like Pantheon is a low-key MMO and the guy behind it doesn't overly sell the game and even said its a niche MMO (which niche doesn't mean bad). So things like that definitely make sense. Or like Cyberpunk 2077 with CD Project, even though its been developed for many years now; no one knows anything about it and they don't talk about it all day (plus they already made good games in the past, especially Witcher 3)

MattL

Basically everything makes the game suspicious...  It really does seem like everything:

1) Money grabs, either by selling ships and arbitrary things ahead of time when they mean/meant nothing
2) Kickstart plus other funding grabs
3) The massive amount of money it's gotten and still seeming money grabs
4) *Massively* delayed development (despite all that money)
5) *Massive* feature creep.  Focusing on things like FPS etc before even the space sim part of the game is done.  These are massive red flags that are commonly known in the industry.
6) Pretty much everything that leaks out from dev are basically all the very common red flags in the industry for bad management and direction...  Such as Roberts being determined to have X feature when his devs don't want it or to do it Y way which is different then how everyone else does it *for a reason*.  I say this as someone whose been in the game industry over a decade, those red flags are real.
7) Messaging from the company itself has all sorts of red flags, many of the e-mails they send out really give me caution... such as changing to a new way of planning and communicating out goals and selling it like it's going to change everything.  Again things I and many others have seen from the inside and usually these aren't good signs when you see them happen multiple times.

So yeah everything.  I've owned an early access package for a while, it was bought for me though I would've bought it anyways.  I still hope all these red flags are wrong but one simply can't ignore the history of game dev.  One should set their expectations accordingly.

frostymug

Octagon7711 said:

I think a lot of people who are interested are setting back and waiting to see how the games develop.  

For a starter pack maybe. By the time it releases that's all you'll be able to get and nobody should want to buy anymore than that since everything will be readily available through normal gameplay.

I think there is a group, but it isn't that large. The space sim crowd isn't that large even if no fans of the genre had already bought in. A publisher would have to pick it up counting on a runaway success in what is historically a smallish niche market. And have to minimize upfront costs while getting everything together. And hope they don't get crucified for what they end up paring off.

Regardless, I don't think anyone will come in to save it and if anyone had plans to, I don't think CR would relinquish control anyways. So that ancillary point is likely moot.

Wizardry

In the very beginning i gave it little notice and was not really that skeptical.
However as soon as i began to see information pop up and Robert's instead of defending the project chose to attack a person who both don't like each other but it should NEVER be about some OTHER GUY.
So then i did a little of my own research and what i saw was a total bull shittr.He made claims of only needing 6 million,that is a super lmao ,i would like to see him make a game of checkers for 6 million the way this guy goes through money.

Another tidbit that caught my eye was when called out for spending the game's money on his wife's career.There is a VERY big problem with that but he excused the notion claiming he had lots of his own money from past sells and business deals.OK what he forget to notice is when he claims he has lots of his own money and even stated he could have funded the game himself.
However once the early access and crowd funding epidemic started to take fold he jumped on that ship in a hurry ..FREE MONEY YAHOO !!!.

Then lot's of little things including paying Angry Joe to endorse his game and then Joe doesn't even talk about the game for about 18 months later after claiming it was the game that made him MOST excited.Look at this site,they got excited about Destiny 2 and we saw about 30 threads in one month.
Overall,the way Robert's runs the operation,to deception,lies ,nope don't trust the guy one bit.

MaxBacon

frostymug said:

I think there is a group, but it isn't that large. The space sim crowd isn't that large even if no fans of the genre had already bought in

You talk a "small niche", yet Elite Dangerous that is more niche than SC (considering the wider audience SC reaches with FPS and related stuff) has realistically at least twice more people who own it than SC does.

The point is not moot, it's very real.

MaxBacon

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MadFrenchie

MaxBacon said:

frostymug said:

I think there is a group, but it isn't that large. The space sim crowd isn't that large even if no fans of the genre had already bought in

You talk a "small niche", yet Elite Dangerous that is more niche than SC (considering the wider audience SC reaches with FPS and related stuff) has realistically at least twice more people who own it than SC does.

The point is not moot, it's very real.

Considering total sales is only around 2.1 million for E:D as of this past December (just doing a quick Google search), and OW already has well over 30 million despite being released for a much shorter timeframe...  I'd say @frostymug's label is the more accurate one.

Flight Sims are horrendously niche.  The closer SC moves towards a flight sim experience, the more niche it gets.

MaxBacon

MadFrenchie said:

Considering total sales is only around 2.1 million for E:D as of this past December (just doing a quick Google search), and OW already has well over 30 million despite being released for a much shorter timeframe...  I'd say frostymug's label is the more accurate one.

Flight Sims are horrendously niche.  The closer SC moves towards a flight sim experience, the more niche it gets.

I disagree. I'm not disputing this with the mainstream games obviously, yet considering the reality of SC, it has realistically around 700-750k owners, Elite Dangerous is more than twice that. 

So within the niche that the space sim genre is, it already shows numbers that SC is very much open to reach, and that would be just with the flight sim pitch, without the FPS pitch and other bits that widen its appeal outside the classic niche.

saintriku92

I think the reason ppl hate this game, has to do with the haters and the fans, way too emotionally invested in a game in alpha, which leads to people trolling/hating the game lol

MadFrenchie

MaxBacon said:

MadFrenchie said:

Considering total sales is only around 2.1 million for E:D as of this past December (just doing a quick Google search), and OW already has well over 30 million despite being released for a much shorter timeframe...  I'd say frostymug's label is the more accurate one.

Flight Sims are horrendously niche.  The closer SC moves towards a flight sim experience, the more niche it gets.

I disagree. I'm not disputing this with the mainstream games, yet considering the reality of SC, it has realistically around 700-750k owners, Elite Dangerous is more than twice that. 

So within the niche that the space sim genre is, it already shows numbers that SC is very much open to reach, and that would be just with the sim pitch, without the FPS pitch and other bits that widen its appeal outside that niche.

If you're talking niche, the measuring stick is mainstream.  It's either got mainstream appeal or it's got niche appeal.  SC has niche appeal.

For such an endeavor, 2.1 million players would, quite frankly, be incredibly disappointing, and would likely result in a huge financial strain on CIG to continue work on the project.  Especially considering a 3rd of those players will have already given CIG their cash and CIG will have already spent pretty much of it completing the title.

Hell, D:OS2 has over half a million, and that game's the very definition of niche.  It also cost a fraction of what SC is costing to deliver.

MaxBacon

MadFrenchie said:

If you're going niche, the measuring stick is mainstream.  It's either got mainstream appeal or it's got niche appeal.  SC has niche appeal.

For such an endeavor, 2.1 million players would, quite frankly, be incredibly disappointing, and would likely result in a huge financial strain on CIG to continue work on the project.  Especially considering a 3rd of those players will have already given CIG their cash and CIG will have already spent pretty much all of it completing the title.

Hell, D:OS2 has over half a million, and that game's the very definition of niche.  It also cost a fraction of what SC is costing to deliver.

I am underplaying those numbers for a safer expectation but they will easily double the number of people who own it, especially with/after the release and the usual impact that has on direct copies sales only (the rest is to be seen I'd wait for the implementation of the relevant revenue systems in-game first).

MadFrenchie

MaxBacon said:

MadFrenchie said:

If you're going niche, the measuring stick is mainstream.  It's either got mainstream appeal or it's got niche appeal.  SC has niche appeal.

For such an endeavor, 2.1 million players would, quite frankly, be incredibly disappointing, and would likely result in a huge financial strain on CIG to continue work on the project.  Especially considering a 3rd of those players will have already given CIG their cash and CIG will have already spent pretty much all of it completing the title.

Hell, D:OS2 has over half a million, and that game's the very definition of niche.  It also cost a fraction of what SC is costing to deliver.

I am underplaying those numbers for a safer expectation but they will easily double the number of people who own it, especially with/after the release and the usual impact that has on direct copies sales only (the rest is to be seen I'd wait for the implementation of the relevant revenue systems in-game first).

That depends upon the condition at release.  If it's still buggy as hell, you may be eating your words.

It's so far from even being feature complete right now that any estimate of sales is just a straight guess.