Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Adding the ability to choose your religion in an MMO

24

Comments

  • Kane72Kane72 Member UncommonPosts: 211
    If you bring religion into MMOs then it will start wars and people will end up fighting each other...
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    No, people would just make troll religions based on the real world...how could you not see this.


    I did see it, that's why the devs would have to approve the name or better yet put in a static number of names . . . that don't resemble any other religion. 

    Also, wurm seems like a grand game to play, but I think the time investment is way tooooooooooooooooo long though. But I should give it a try at some point. 

    Cryomatrix
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Eldurian said:
    Player designed and operated religions would be a recipe for disaster. People can barely even talk about the concept of religion without impending calamity. There is no way adding such a system to a game wouldn't result in endless angst and rancor among the players.
    Honestly the only type of people who have a conniption fit when they hear the word "religion" are the type of people who are overly sensitive and get freaked out by everything. Catering to those kinds of people only reinforces to them that other people are supposed to care about their tantrums. Just like children who act that way, they should be ignored, and absolutely never given their way.

    Their opinions hold zero stock with me. It's a fictitious religion in a video game. Not a slight to your real life religion, and not something you should shrink back from like a vampire from garlic because you are so highly allergic to the word religion. 

    The Amarr for one show that put "offensive" things into fictional world and the vast majority of people can cope.
    The problem isn't so much people getting offended as it is that it tends to lead to flame wars.  That's the reason why religious discussions are banned from many online forums, including this one.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Quizzical said:
    The problem isn't so much people getting offended as it is that it tends to lead to flame wars.  That's the reason why religious discussions are banned from many online forums, including this one.
    Agreed. And religion is all about faith, you can't really prove someone with a differing opinion is wrong and few discussions between opposing religions leads to anything.

    Then again, fictional religions should be included if you have clerics/priests/priestesses/druids/magis in your game as long as you use it more as background material. Having a class that takes it powers from a God or pantheon but not include that in the game would be a bit weird.

    Roleplaying settings like Forgotten realms uses religion pretty well without upsetting people since it is so far from the reality, but those setting usually use that more for background reasons then as a large part of the game.

    If you skip the religion altogether you should skip those classes as well.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited September 2017
    Quizzical said:
    Eldurian said:

    Honestly the only type of people who have a conniption fit when they hear the word "religion" are the type of people who are overly sensitive and get freaked out by everything. Catering to those kinds of people only reinforces to them that other people are supposed to care about their tantrums. Just like children who act that way, they should be ignored, and absolutely never given their way.

    Their opinions hold zero stock with me. It's a fictitious religion in a video game. Not a slight to your real life religion, and not something you should shrink back from like a vampire from garlic because you are so highly allergic to the word religion. 

    The Amarr for one show that put "offensive" things into fictional world and the vast majority of people can cope.
    The problem isn't so much people getting offended as it is that it tends to lead to flame wars.  That's the reason why religious discussions are banned from many online forums, including this one.
    That problem essentially still relates back to the fact that people hear the word "religion" and recoil. Then make some "edgy" statement to show how cool and non-conforming they are, and then the topic descends from there if anyone backtalks them. I won't name names but like 5 people have already made edgy statements to let us know how much they dislike religion in this topic. One of whom had 666 in their name. He get's extra edgy points. You've unlocked the achievement "Cut my life into pieces." (Lol. Actually not talking about you Loke, that one is aimed at Dave)

    The thing is your average game player is more capable of handling these topics than your average forum player as you can see with the religious overtones in Runescape, EVE, Dungeons and Dragons, etc. that millions of adults and even middle schoolers in the case of Runescape have all been able to handle pretty well. Really it's a topic that is rarely brought up outside the context of roleplay.

    It's just for some reason people think their edgy ways are going to win them a ton of cool points in forum discussions. We don't really need to base the way games are built off of forum goers in black trench coats who stole their mom's cigarettes. 
  • karmathkarmath Member UncommonPosts: 904
    We have enough of that garbage outside of games. 
    KyleranPhry
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited September 2017
    karmath said:
    We have enough of that garbage outside of games. 


    Mark a 6th edgy comment by the guy whose symbol is the triforce. Which anyone who played OoT remembers was left behind by three goddesses.
    Kyleran
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited September 2017
    Crazy people all over the world . Cannot have them taking on some 'jihad' in a game. Please no, please no, keep them out of a game unless it is mildly done like in WoW although the Alliance priest class is very close to Christianlike... don't kill me for saying this.

     I enjoy the Troll religion....it still makes me chuckle when the guy says "stay aaway from the Voodoo or "we got the good stuff'' like he has some great weed or something. Now that I can get behind.
    PhryTsiya

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534
    sounds like skyforge to me.

    become a god, get followers...

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    edited September 2017
    Choosing a religion is akin to choosing a worldview, set of values, or cultural traditions. I feel there are better ways to integrate these concepts in role-playing-centric games than at character creation. That being said, I feel that religion is often overlooked focal point for conflict within a story. Games like Dragon Age implemented religion in a manner that befits the genre (wholly rooted in the mythos of the world, but with relatable ties to human society). 

    It is also worth mentioning that this is a central theme in traditional RPG systems, when creating Clerics.
    Kyleran
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,029
    Sure, can't see why it can't be done in a fantasy setting with fantasy gods and you could act within the ethos of that deity. Such as don't wear blue and bury your corpses with respect to name some of many examples. Or it could be just a matter of choosing a god for whichever bonuses you want.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    DMKano said:
    Choosing a religion is akin to choosing a worldview, set of values, or cultural traditions. I feel there are better ways to integrate these concepts in role-playing-centric games than at character creation. That being said, I feel that religion is often overlooked focal point for conflict within a story. Games like Dragon Age implemented religion in a manner that befits the genre (wholly rooted in the mythos of the world, but with relatable ties to human society). 

    It is also worth mentioning that this is a central theme in traditional RPG systems, when creating Clerics.

    To me there is a clear distinction between:

     religion (organized system of beliefs/practices/rituals with a large community) 

    and

    faith/spirituality (internal/personal belief system based on individual's "feeling/intution" etc...)

    In game - I view most classes as members of an order and having personal faith, not so much being members of a religious community.

    Especially considering that roleplaying is so dead in MMOs that I am yet to see any group of players follow any kind of in-game religion, as 99.999999% is all about gearing up, XPing etc..

    There's not much point of having religion that nobody even thinks about after the character creation screen, is there? 

    I mean it just becomes a label at that point, if you are not actively following and practicing it as part of the community, you are not really a part of that religion anymore. 

    You are just having your personal beliefs at that point.
    I could agree with that sentiment, as faith/spirituality are distinctive enough from religion. I was drawing a comparison between the act of 'choosing a religion' in the context of a game to choosing a character's worldview, values, or cultural traditions (as they are similar enough in nature, regarding a role-playing character).

    Religion is another way of saying 'organized belief/world view', which is not very different from an 'order' and having 'personal faith', especially if that personal faith is directly correlated to the shared values of the 'order' (i.e. KotoR/Jedi).

    I agree and disagree, it really depends on how the game is written and how the character interacts with religion. If there is interaction (Jedi - Dark/Light) then there is a significant enough role-playing and decision-tree presence to make the character selection choice more relevant.

    Personally, I like religion in game to be a bit more integrated and a bit less conspicuous in the script. Take World of Warcraft for example. There are religious and cultural themes sprinkled in the game's lore, quests, and story arcs. Religion/cultural worldviews are very prevalent in Azeroth: Scarlet Crusade, Tauren Spiritual Themes, Paladin, and many more. The significant difference between WoW and a game that is more overtly integrating religion into the story (Dante's Inferno), is that WoW gives enough information and dialogue to tickle the imagination, and lets the player fill the gaps and resolve story ties (in their own unique way), which is far more relatable as a consumer and a role-player.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    The real issue is that religion and spirituality is fluid...  I mean, sure it'd be interesting to select a religion at character creation, but what happens when I encounter something so profoundly discouraging that I start....




    How will MMORPGs account for this??????????

    image
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Themeparks tend to make you build your character at character creation. Sandboxes do not.  In Wurm for instance, changing your religion is as simple as making a pilgrimage to the white or blacklight or accepting a conversion speech by a member of that religion.

    This resets your faith skill (As is logical) but other than that no biggie.
    Gdemami
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    I'm a believer in religion in MMORPGs, if for nothing else than an alternative system to combat and crafting.  But I don't think allowing the player to create in-game religions is the way to go.

    I've always looked at religion in games as something that grows out of the lore provided by the developers.  'Religion' could function as a mega-faction, or a specialized magical healing sect, or something else entirely.  Characters could earn rewards within the religion by participating in special festivals or contests or quests.  Characters could gain status and even become leaders within the religious ranks, allowing them to influence actions and goals of the religion.

    A pantheon of gods, like the Greeks or even like EQ1, could serve as the model, with characters 'worshiping' (or not) all gods as they choose.  Much like factions in EQ1, each God had festivals and holy days and rituals and agendas.  Each had special benefits that could be enacted by the devout worshiper (in exchange for Piety, similar to mana in many MMORPGs), such as extra long personal buffs, magical transportation or a service to send items to the character's home.   I'd even restructure the magical healing system to take major medical out of player, especially resurrection.  A meddlesome pantheon of gods could also be used to interject global events into the game world.  If Pald the Ocean God decided that his followers should try to kill all earth demons, the temples and oracles favoring Pald would spread the word to higher rank followers, who could gain bonus rewards (XP, money, piety, favor, whatever) for fighting these creatures.

    Religion could be more than a role playing choice.  It could be an abstract system alongside melee, magic and crafting, and with a dose of creativity, it could help provide a means for the developers to interject periodic dynamic events into an otherwise static game world.
    AvarixKyleranConstantineMerus

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825
    Would people like this? Or would it be like choosing a race with special characteristics. You can make up a religion to choose and give your followers certain bonuses and spells and perhaps group spells if everyone is the same religion. I'd prefer it that you have a built in class that starts a religion. 

    I guess it would be like any other thing like racial bonuses or guild bonuses. 

    I'd envision an MMO where if someone progresses far enough they become a prophet and they can start their own religion. I guess it would have to be different then a guild type, but the founder of the religion can craft certain boosts that all followers of his religion will have. Then they can try to promote themselves. The more followers the prophet has the more bonus the minions get as well as the more bonus he gets. 

    I'd make it so it is very difficult to become a prophet, it wouldnt' be as easy to form as a guild, this will take time and dedication. You'd have to build temples and such and do a terribly long quest chain to unlock it. 

    On a side note, I loved the lineage 2 long quest lines to choose your class as you hit every 20 levels, I thought that was fantastic. 

    Anyway, what are thoughts. I also think all real world religions or words associated it with it would be banned. Like you'd have to make it up completely. No links, and they would have to be approved by the devs. 

    Thoughts?

    Cryomatrix
    I've always thought of Religion applying heavily to priest/cleric characters as a gateway towards different modes/builds. Even Dungeons and Dragons had a Fundamental Rule that the Cleric gained powers from the God they worshiped, while Wizards memorized their spells as energy stored in the brain, in which once cast, the wizard loses memory of the spell and has to relearn it. 

    Gods also gave certain bonuses to non-cleric characters (Legends and Lore Manual). 

    I always said that the only place where religion can exist as long as it is part of the game world and its lore, and be worshiped without skepticism (since the Gods do exist in the game worlds) are in RPGs/MMORPGs. 

    This would also mean Holy Wars where incarnations of the Gods/Goddesses would liven up the battlefield too, and certain individuals would inherit their power.
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 3,030
    Religion and the Pantheon within fantasy worlds is part of RPGs. It should have nothing to do real world religions unless the mmo is a fantasized version of the real world.

    Classes like clerics, paladins, shamans, druids, etc exist because of religion. When fantasized they become real. People scared of the level of escapism demanded from these fantasy games are merely immature and too indoctrinated into today's modern propaganda to set aside real world mind sets.

    Mature games are not mature because of sexual, violent or vulgar content dictated by a label (many of those are merely filth ... not a concept of maturity). They are mature because they demand complex thinking and real immersion into a time and place separate from real life. Fantasy worlds have always been worlds reflecting an amalgamation of real human history across all cultures allowing exploration of concepts and ideas separated from real world politics. 

    The reason why we have pathetically simplified mmos with the depth of a pothole is because the average player drawn to them lacks the capacity to explore the mature ideas presented to them. The games that demand this level of maturity and life experience draw too few players required by most large developers market share goals. This is not a matter of what can make money but a matter of what makes the most money. It is censorship through capitalism ... if not, at least, for the market's current capacity to still support indie development.

    We then get silly threads popping up asking about the validity of foundational principals of fantasy world building that long existed in novels, rpgs, comics and other media as if these ideas were suddenly too controversial to address. 


    You stay sassy!

  • TsiyaTsiya Member UncommonPosts: 280
    edited September 2017
    Suppose you had, at the end of a long hard quest chain, the ability to make a religion. You would have a limited selection for the god/dess's name alignment and affiliation ie. Sirie the Bright Star, Rulgar the Dark Dragon. After you create your religion you build a temple, and every milestone number of followers you get a level and a point. First and every odd point afterwards gives a debuff like the banes in Camelot Unchained, such as unreasoning fear of spiders. Even points give a boon like 2% more damage at night. With careful balancing, this could be just another RP element, or the chance for the players to make their own world-changing force.

    image

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,583
    Eldurian said:
    Player designed and operated religions would be a recipe for disaster. People can barely even talk about the concept of religion without impending calamity. There is no way adding such a system to a game wouldn't result in endless angst and rancor among the players.
    Honestly the only type of people who have a conniption fit when they hear the word "religion" are the type of people who are overly sensitive and get freaked out by everything. Catering to those kinds of people only reinforces to them that other people are supposed to care about their tantrums. Just like children who act that way, they should be ignored, and absolutely never given their way.

    Their opinions hold zero stock with me. It's a fictitious religion in a video game. Not a slight to your real life religion, and not something you should shrink back from like a vampire from garlic because you are so highly allergic to the word religion. 

    The Amarr for one show that put "offensive" things into fictional world and the vast majority of people can cope.
    People that are overly sensitive and freakout over everything are rapidly becoming the norm. It isn't so much a matter of catering to them, but of recognizing the majority no longer have the maturity to handle topics with any kind of depth, and designing accordingly.

    Player designed religions won't stick to fantasy ones if the system allows for much in the way of customization, as there will be some that can't resist bringing real ones in.

    Flavour text for a race, which likely doesn't even make it much beyond the page it is written on as far as player actions in game, isn't the same as allowing payers to create their own in game religions. Of course, I could be wrong, and those background elements feature prominently in the play of many, or even a sizable minority. Even then, those elements of the Amarr are provided for the players and not created by them.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    People that are overly sensitive and freakout over everything are rapidly becoming the norm. It isn't so much a matter of catering to them, but of recognizing the majority no longer have the maturity to handle topics with any kind of depth, and designing accordingly.

    Player designed religions won't stick to fantasy ones if the system allows for much in the way of customization, as there will be some that can't resist bringing real ones in.

    Flavour text for a race, which likely doesn't even make it much beyond the page it is written on as far as player actions in game, isn't the same as allowing payers to create their own in game religions. Of course, I could be wrong, and those background elements feature prominently in the play of many, or even a sizable minority. Even then, those elements of the Amarr are provided for the players and not created by them.
    I'd first of like to state I don't think the majority of people are that easily offended. Just a very, very, very vocal minority. 

    With player designed religions you would want to give players some ability to ascend to deity status, and fall from that status. It should be a very difficult process that only a few players can achieve and maintain. 

    At that point you can tell the very small number of players who have worked their butts off to get the right to be a deity. "You need to make your religion based on reasonable roleplay. You use this to troll, and you lose it." I doubt anyone would cause trouble given those consequences. And if they did it would be simple to deal with given the very low number of player dieties.

    Now if it was as easy to form a religion as it is to form a guild then yeah, people would use it to troll and moderators wouldn't have time to deal with it all.

    Cryomatrix
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,039
    Eldurian said:
    People that are overly sensitive and freakout over everything are rapidly becoming the norm. It isn't so much a matter of catering to them, but of recognizing the majority no longer have the maturity to handle topics with any kind of depth, and designing accordingly.

    Player designed religions won't stick to fantasy ones if the system allows for much in the way of customization, as there will be some that can't resist bringing real ones in.

    Flavour text for a race, which likely doesn't even make it much beyond the page it is written on as far as player actions in game, isn't the same as allowing payers to create their own in game religions. Of course, I could be wrong, and those background elements feature prominently in the play of many, or even a sizable minority. Even then, those elements of the Amarr are provided for the players and not created by them.
    I'd first of like to state I don't think the majority of people are that easily offended. Just a very, very, very vocal minority. 

    With player designed religions you would want to give players some ability to ascend to deity status, and fall from that status. It should be a very difficult process that only a few players can achieve and maintain. 

    At that point you can tell the very small number of players who have worked their butts off to get the right to be a deity. "You need to make your religion based on reasonable roleplay. You use this to troll, and you lose it." I doubt anyone would cause trouble given those consequences. And if they did it would be simple to deal with given the very low number of player dieties.

    Now if it was as easy to form a religion as it is to form a guild then yeah, people would use it to troll and moderators wouldn't have time to deal with it all.

    So kind of like getting jedi in SWG pre NGE?  Or say emperor in ESO?  Am I understanding you correctly?  It's not a bad idea.  As long as the religions created had templates made from the developer so not to break the immersion with real life religions.  Playing Divinity Original Sin 2 right now, and that's kind of what's going on in that game.  You are trying to ascend to divinity.
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    Yeah Wurm Online has had player deities for years now and only a few people have achieved it. The thing is though that there is no way to lose godhood in WO so that number just builds over time. Also godhood does very little for you other than allowing people to be priests of your religion. You don't even get the powers of a champion of yourself.

    If I was to implement it in another MMO, I would make sure that god who are not active and can't maintain an active following lose their godhood. Or at least a god without an active following would have to be a total badass who gets a lot of crap done to keep that status. I'd also make sure there would be some darn benefits to being a god. 

    The big thing is I would make ascension about a lot more than grinding. The challenges leading to ascension would really test your skills, wits, and ability to lead others.
    Kyleran
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,583
    Eldurian said:
    People that are overly sensitive and freakout over everything are rapidly becoming the norm. It isn't so much a matter of catering to them, but of recognizing the majority no longer have the maturity to handle topics with any kind of depth, and designing accordingly.

    Player designed religions won't stick to fantasy ones if the system allows for much in the way of customization, as there will be some that can't resist bringing real ones in.

    Flavour text for a race, which likely doesn't even make it much beyond the page it is written on as far as player actions in game, isn't the same as allowing payers to create their own in game religions. Of course, I could be wrong, and those background elements feature prominently in the play of many, or even a sizable minority. Even then, those elements of the Amarr are provided for the players and not created by them.
    I'd first of like to state I don't think the majority of people are that easily offended. Just a very, very, very vocal minority. 

    With player designed religions you would want to give players some ability to ascend to deity status, and fall from that status. It should be a very difficult process that only a few players can achieve and maintain. 

    At that point you can tell the very small number of players who have worked their butts off to get the right to be a deity. "You need to make your religion based on reasonable roleplay. You use this to troll, and you lose it." I doubt anyone would cause trouble given those consequences. And if they did it would be simple to deal with given the very low number of player dieties.

    Now if it was as easy to form a religion as it is to form a guild then yeah, people would use it to troll and moderators wouldn't have time to deal with it all.

    I find people getting offended over the most ridiculous things quite common, but my view may be skewed by an over-reliance on monitoring online interactions. However, it is my belief that how people conduct themselves online is more telling than how they behave in person, due to perceived anonymity and such.

    I don't know that giving players the ability to ascend would be required. Religions are created by men, not gods. Ascension could be used as the mechanic, but others could be used as well. It need not even be a matter of creating a religion whole-cloth. Instead a system could allow for creating a new denomination of an existing religion, or limited to simply founding a new order within it. Either could allow for relevant customization without venturing into godhood, with the favour of the NPC god for the achievement being the rationale.

    Perhaps a lengthy and difficult process would be enough to reduce or eliminate negative issues entirely. However, I don't know that many companies would feel it worth the risk when they could just as easily provide such options in a manner less likely to cause contention.

    In any case, I could be overestimating the resulting angst. It certainly wouldn't be an issue that would cause me any concern, regardless of whether the religions were fantastic, inspired by actual ones, or direct copies of the same. Even that based on reality is fiction in the context of an MMORPG. Players that can't make that distinction should probably find a different hobby.
  • LithuanianLithuanian Member UncommonPosts: 559
    Keep religion and politics out of mmos. We would have more civil wars than we have now.
    I would let keep individual things (politics, sexuality, religion) to oneself, not to demonstrate.
    EldurianalkarionlogBlaze_Rocker
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Some of the real world religions are so messed up i don't even want them to be IRL, i most certainly would not want them to be in a game :/
    ConstantineMerusEldurianMrMelGibson
Sign In or Register to comment.