There will never be a time where an mmorpg of this kind won't be sought after, regardless of whether this one is successful.
As circumstantial proof of this, before there were games like Everquest there were MUDs (Multi-User Dungeons). Brad McQuaid was once a MUD developer (according to wiki anyway). Believe it or not, there are still at least 708 active MUDs operating. See mudstats.com. The point being, there is still a market even for the games that preceded the predecessors of Pantheon. Good games stand the test of time.
Do those MUDs charge you $14.99/mo. to play? And what are the system requirements?
I think this is a pretty awful comparison, and "circumstantial proof" of nothing, really....
Games of this type are extremely niche. There's probably a reason why they aren't being developed outside of Asia - where games are made grindy [intentionally] to profit off of the business model of selling game play time, not simply game "Access" used in some countries (like Korea).
The games are ported to here from Asia, but they tend to plateau easily and lose subscribers over time, as people get burned out on the grinding and huge time sinks.
Also, while social gaming is great... There is a thin line between loving to play a group-based game and paying to play a game that you require other people you can't thoroughly rely on to derive any entertainment from...
On one side of that line, you're having fun. On the other side of that line, you're wasting money (and being frustrated).
Sometimes when a game runs poorly its not because its designed for too good of a machine, its just because it was designed poorly and no matter how good a machine you get its going to run poorly.
As an example, you try running through Warsliks Woods in EQ1. Even 17 years later its a lag fest.
I run though Warsliks Woods with a toaster. Giant Fort is still one of my favorite low-level camps.
Did you manage to find a place to plug it in? The toaster i mean and what are you toasting....umm Don Rickles...pop tarts?
This is what i expect Pantheon to be...6/10 possibly a 7/10 By mmorpg scoring standards that is a 9.9/10 or better,by Gamespace standards that is a 11/10.
Graphics should be the least of anyone's worries,you should expect pretty much Vanguard type graphics,it is the game play and possibly some unique ideas we hope to see as being good enough to keep us interested long term.
I would also say that since we saw the exact same results with every rendition of EQ>VG that we should also expect to see some lag.
Currently, there is virtually nothing unique about this game. It's a legit EQ clone. This is a problem.
I know they say they're fine with being a niche, but this formula is old - and getting older - and most players are simply not attracted to this style of game.
The Players most attracted to it are getting older and many of them simply do not have the kind of time to dedicate to a game that something like Vanilla EQ required... I think people "excited" about this are forgetting that EQ actually got kind of "easy" a long time ago (around PoP timeframe) - if we're talking about "grind" and time investment to feel like you're making progress in the game.
Even many EQ players are likely to balk at this game, for that reason.
Yes, it's going to be like Early EQ... But EQ hasn't been like Early EQ for about a dozen years...
Many of the people who wanted that, quit when that game changed and likely aren't looking to go back to that - at this point in time.
The new progression server for EQ, Agnarr, is still quite busy with all of us old folks who still enjoy this style of game.
Playing on an EQ progression server is not the same as playing EQ when the content was current and being released.
It's about 10x faster, which is why you see people getting to level 50 in days when the progression server opens. A lot of the changes they've made to the game are still on the progression server. They don't have a way to properly filter it out and introduce it in the same way it was introduced organically over the game's life.
People go to the Progression Servers to race to the end, and then they pretty much die out to a fair/large extent.
Same thing happens in EQ2.
Same thing happens in all older games that open progression servers.
And the amount of people playing EQ is borderline ignorable in the grand scheme of things (in this large market), anywyas.
EQ only ever peaked at around 250k players or so, and they'd lost half of those by 2005 or so - before WoW was ever released.
No one is doubting that there are people who enjoy this type of game.
I'm just doubting that it's as many people as some here seem to insinuate. There is a reason why VR stated they were "okay with being niche."
I think this is a pretty awful comparison, and "circumstantial proof" of nothing, really....
You are entitled to your opinion. The point is that there are 780 active MUDs that some people still like to play. Which is just one of many possible examples of a continuing interest in classic gaming in this general genre.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If no other games are being made like an old game, by definition it's unique.
That people won't play it is just your unsubstantiated opinion. Based on what we've seen, people are not likely to keep buying into and remaining faithful to the current type of mmo, while EQ was very popular, especially for it's time, and had a rabidly faithful fanbase that still keeps it afloat to this day.
How can it be unique, when you can just play the other game it's cloning right now... before the clone is even on the market.
Do you know what unique actually means, or are you attempting to redefine it?
@Darksworn - On the notion that a new MMO reaching back into origins of the genre, Dullahan is correct. No one is making a game that goes back to foundational principles established in 1999. EQ may still exist as a title, but it is not the EQ of 1999. So Pantheon is in fact unique then if it launches with those old principles that cannot be found in any existing title when thinking in terms of available MMOs on the market.
It's your opinion that EQ evolved for the better. I wholly disagree. I think around the LDON/GOD era the evolution of EQ finally killed a large percentage of what made the game great to begin with and people started looking for alternatives. (I actually think the decline started with PoP/Luclin but...) It so happens that GOD coincides with (roughly) with the release of WoW, and WoW did take a lot of those subs. I wouldnt argue that proves WoW is a better game, or that it doubled-down on things EQ was evolving toward in a necessary way. I would instead argue that it was new, different, and people were sick of what EQ was becoming and looking for any alternative. If they were going to get less appealing mechanics they might as well get it from a new, modern game with a massive budget based on a beloved backstory, than get the same less appealing mechanics in a game that was aged and modified nearly beyond recognition of its former glory.
Retaining MMO players is definately the key to the longevity of a game. Ironically you seem to hold WoW as a paragon of these ideal, but I find myself renewing my sub on WoW just long enough to blast to the new max level, run enough dungeons in a very short period to get the best gear that non-raid content can provide, maybe doing a little pvp, and ending my sub again within 2 month's span. I'm not alone in this, I know.
If no other games are being made like an old game, by definition it's unique.
That people won't play it is just your unsubstantiated opinion. Based on what we've seen, people are not likely to keep buying into and remaining faithful to the current type of mmo, while EQ was very popular, especially for it's time, and had a rabidly faithful fanbase that still keeps it afloat to this day.
How can it be unique, when you can just play the other game it's cloning right now... before the clone is even on the market.
Do you know what unique actually means, or are you attempting to redefine it?
There is no other game with a similar design, modern graphics and the other newer mechanics being proposed for Pantheon currently available. Comparing it to an emulated server or a memory would not disqualify it from being unique in the current marketplace.
ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet. It would not be hard for them to attract a sizeable audience in 2017 with a game based on the proposed model. It was extremely fun, addicting, social and different from anything currently offered.
ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet.
Even less...way less...had the GPU required to play.
Yeah. That was back when people had no idea what a gpu was, most didn't have internet, and the few that had both of those laughed at the idea of paying a subscription for a game.
Hitting half a million players and keeping a consistent population was huge. Few online games have hit those number 15 years later.
Back around 1998 and before as computers were getting better. Having a computer was STILL considered a nerd move. That's about when I jumped the fence into nerd land anyway.
Around 2004 I decided to buy World of Warcraft, I had no one to talk to about it. I went to EBGames and the guy talked me out of it. I'm like why ?.... You don't have the hardware, he told me. But here is some kind of shooter that will play. At home it still wouldn't play. Took it back bought World of Warcraft and spent a lot of money just get it running.
Even the fellow nerds thought I was crazy for paying all that money for a video card and ram.
Of the four aspects of gameplay - graphics, user interface, rulesystem, and story - graphics are my least concern. I'm certain they'll be good enough to be playable, and I will probably run mostly minimum settings anyway.
I am slightly sad that Pantheon wont have a seamless world and realistic viewing distances, like Vanguard did, but oh well.
ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet.
Even less...way less...had the GPU required to play.
Yeah. That was back when people had no idea what a gpu was, most didn't have internet, and the few that had both of those laughed at the idea of paying a subscription for a game.
Hitting half a million players and keeping a consistent population was huge. Few online games have hit those number 15 years later.
Yet here we are today, most still don't have the GPU to play a graphically intense MMORPG and they laugh at the idea of paying a sub fee for a game.
Improved Internet access of course, but also so many more gaming choices today vs 2000, entirely new platforms such as mobile, VR, AR and more.
EQs success 19 years ago is no predictor of Pantheon today, especially as Brads most recent posts appear to suggest a realignment of the game's design to something a bit further from EQ than some fans may care for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I wouldn't use eq number for any exact estimates, but if eq had half a million and vanguard attracted a quarter mill, 25k is obviously low.
If that 500k players are still around, and if they are still playing MMORPGs, and if they aren't busy with another game (any genre), and if they actually liked EQ1/Vanguard the first time around, and if they have similar available time, and if they have the same expectations they had in 1999, THEN there might be 25k people curious enough to look in on the Pantheon launch. Then they might leave again before a year because they remembered why they left that game the first (or second) time around.
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I wouldn't use eq number for any exact estimates, but if eq had half a million and vanguard attracted a quarter mill, 25k is obviously low.
If that 500k players are still around, and if they are still playing MMORPGs, and if they aren't busy with another game (any genre), and if they actually liked EQ1/Vanguard the first time around, and if they have similar available time, and if they have the same expectations they had in 1999, THEN there might be 25k people curious enough to look in on the Pantheon launch. Then they might leave again before a year because they remembered why they left that game the first (or second) time around.
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
Luckily Pantheon isn't age restricted or limited to only fans of previous games...
I wouldn't use eq number for any exact estimates, but if eq had half a million and vanguard attracted a quarter mill, 25k is obviously low.
If that 500k players are still around, and if they are still playing MMORPGs, and if they aren't busy with another game (any genre), and if they actually liked EQ1/Vanguard the first time around, and if they have similar available time, and if they have the same expectations they had in 1999, THEN there might be 25k people curious enough to look in on the Pantheon launch. Then they might leave again before a year because they remembered why they left that game the first (or second) time around.
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
15-20K registered on the dev forums, 720 pages of info authored by 254,066 users on gamepedia (back in April), over 20-30K live viewers on each of Coh's streams alone (over 150K total), 1-2 years out from release with little to no marketing/ad work; honestly, barring a disaster, how do you figure it'll be anywhere near 25K on release?
I wouldn't use eq number for any exact estimates, but if eq had half a million and vanguard attracted a quarter mill, 25k is obviously low.
If that 500k players are still around, and if they are still playing MMORPGs, and if they aren't busy with another game (any genre), and if they actually liked EQ1/Vanguard the first time around, and if they have similar available time, and if they have the same expectations they had in 1999, THEN there might be 25k people curious enough to look in on the Pantheon launch. Then they might leave again before a year because they remembered why they left that game the first (or second) time around.
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
Good point about the Unknown 2020 player base.
I always say this "old school only" thing is a bunch of crap. New players will be coming on board like crazy...... Why ?...... Because it's new again !
I wouldn't use eq number for any exact estimates, but if eq had half a million and vanguard attracted a quarter mill, 25k is obviously low.
If that 500k players are still around, and if they are still playing MMORPGs, and if they aren't busy with another game (any genre), and if they actually liked EQ1/Vanguard the first time around, and if they have similar available time, and if they have the same expectations they had in 1999, THEN there might be 25k people curious enough to look in on the Pantheon launch. Then they might leave again before a year because they remembered why they left that game the first (or second) time around.
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
Good point about the Unknown 2020 player base.
I always say this "old school only" thing is a bunch of crap. New players will be coming on board like crazy...... Why ?...... Because it's new again !
Yeah, I think a mistake that people make on here is believing that basically only old EQ players are interested in playing. I think people will find there is a higher number of people wanting to play from vanguard and ffxi then they think. Also delete5230 may have a point about the old being like the new to many out there.
I think a bigger mistake might be in assuming Pantheon will actually end up that much like EQ.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, I think a mistake that people make on here is believing that basically only old EQ players are interested in playing. I think people will find there is a higher number of people wanting to play from vanguard and ffxi then they think. Also delete5230 may have a point about the old being like the new to many out there.
I think a bigger mistake might be in assuming Pantheon will actually end up that much like EQ.
Maybe you missed the streams, but it's currently very similar conceptually. Don't know what you saw that made you think they were going to change. Completely open world/no instancing, no fast travel, high risk vs high reward, highly cooperative/limited soloing. The only known systems which may run contrary to that philosophy would be caravans and mentoring.
While I'd like to think there would be none of the convenience features of that sort (because it never truly improves the game or player retention), it will probably exist in some forms to some degree. Still, from what they've said, it will be minimal.
ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet.
Even less...way less...had the GPU required to play.
EQ didn't really require a GPU of any decency to play until around 2004 or so, (after Planes of Power) when they upgraded the graphics Engine for DX9. Until then, I was playing on an old Voodoo3 graphics card on a P3. I put EQ on my older laptop with an AMD A10-5745M APU, and it was laggy as all hell, because GPU almost doesn't matter to EQ. It's all about the CPU. EQ2 has the same issues (it has terrible GPU usage, and high CPU requirements). There are games released in 2010-2014 which play better on that laptop than EverQuest.
Also, EQ topped off at half a million "players," but by that time a lot of those "players" were boxed toons. I don't know any other progression raider who didn't have 2 accounts - one with their main and another with a raid alt they kept decently-fully geared up. EQ saw a lot of account trading as well, so many people would buy accounts, quit and resale them (causing all sorts of issues for guilds when accounts would get recalled or locked).
EQ died pretty quickly - during the Gates of Discord expansion it lost a lot of its top guilds to WoW Beta, etc. in a fairly short span of time. It never really recovered, and it never really saw the same kind of "bump" that WoW sees at Expansion launches for Omens of War, DoDH, PoR, etc.
I think this was the case because a lot of EQ players played with the same people for years, and it was the primary thing keeping them on the game. That's why guilds tended to quit en masse, and never return. No one wanted to start over building relationships that - to them - were as legitimate as any other RL friendship. A lot of EQ Guilds used to do IRL meet-ups, go to SOE's annual event together, etc.
I actually met a few people from EQ in WoW, because I use the same character name in all the other MMORPGs that I play. It was quite cool that they remembered me after a decade, just from my character name, and I remembered them from theirs.
I think people are putting a little too much stock in EQ's gameplay... Back then, it was slim pickings for MMORPGs, and either you put up or shut up. Once the "modern" wave of MMORPGs hit the market (or were about to), EQ quickly faded into irrelevance.
I don't think that's merely coincidental.
In any case, no one is trying to convince anyone here NOT to play Pantheon. It's your money to spend how you wish. We just don't feel the need to censor our different opinions on certain matters.
I love how it's gone from "It's like EQ" to "Well, it's like EQ... but Early EQ... cause of course the expansions that made EQ "easier" is what drove players away... Not the antique gameplay and Korean-style grinding."
EDIT: ^- Seems to be a common theme I'm noticing on various Pantheon forums and Reddit. It's as if they've prepared the talking points, and are quick to jot them down every time someone mentions these things.
I wouldn't use eq number for any exact estimates, but if eq had half a million and vanguard attracted a quarter mill, 25k is obviously low.
If that 500k players are still around, and if they are still playing MMORPGs, and if they aren't busy with another game (any genre), and if they actually liked EQ1/Vanguard the first time around, and if they have similar available time, and if they have the same expectations they had in 1999, THEN there might be 25k people curious enough to look in on the Pantheon launch. Then they might leave again before a year because they remembered why they left that game the first (or second) time around.
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
Good point about the Unknown 2020 player base.
I always say this "old school only" thing is a bunch of crap. New players will be coming on board like crazy...... Why ?...... Because it's new again !
Yes, it's new.
But, the game doesn't play itself.
Many new MMORPGs have been released since EQ. Almost as many have utterly failed in the market, because hype only gets you the initial sales. It doesn't keep people subscribed month after month.
ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet.
Even less...way less...had the GPU required to play.
EQ didn't really require a GPU of any decency to play until around 2004 or so, (after Planes of Power) when they upgraded the graphics Engine for DX9. Until then, I was playing on an old Voodoo3 graphics card on a P3. I put EQ on my older laptop with an AMD A10-5745M APU, and it was laggy as all hell, because GPU almost doesn't matter to EQ. It's all about the CPU. EQ2 has the same issues (it has terrible GPU usage, and high CPU requirements). There are games released in 2010-2014 which play better on that laptop than EverQuest.
Sounds like you didn't play EQ when it came out. Makes a lot of sense why you argue from the perspective you do.
You could technically play the game without a video card, but if you didn't want 5fps when someone casted a spell or there were a lot of people around, you needed one. There weren't any sliders early on to turn settings down or off.
EQ didn't "evolve", it changed. Some liked what it became, some merely enjoyed it because there was nothing comparable until WoW. Many of us did not care for it at all and have hoped someone would make something like it since.
This, older, demographic tends to stick with games a lot longer than the millennials who make up a large portion of the gaming community...for reasons that we don't need to get into (that is a whole other conversation). I have seen multiple people on the Pantheon forum express that they feel like Pantheon is their last option to return to the style of play that they enjoy. These types of games don't get made very often.
If Pantheon isn't reasonably successful another game like it may never get made again.
If we're being honest, another game like this won't ever be made again because a significant chunk of the core audience will be worm food by that time.
So unless this game is able to bridge the gap of interest between the pioneer MMOers and the newest generation of gamer, I doubt the old school philosophy sees any tune ups after this title is released.
I think us GenX people still have a few years left in us before we become worm food.
Yeah, I think a mistake that people make on here is believing that basically only old EQ players are interested in playing. I think people will find there is a higher number of people wanting to play from vanguard and ffxi then they think. Also delete5230 may have a point about the old being like the new to many out there.
I think a bigger mistake might be in assuming Pantheon will actually end up that much like EQ.
Maybe you missed the streams, but it's currently very similar conceptually. Don't know what you saw that made you think they were going to change. Completely open world/no instancing, no fast travel, high risk vs high reward, highly cooperative/limited soloing. The only known systems which may run contrary to that philosophy would be caravans and mentoring.
While I'd like to think there would be none of the convenience features of that sort (because it never truly improves the game or player retention), it will probably exist in some forms to some degree. Still, from what they've said, it will be minimal.
From Brads last few blogs, he seems to be considering some changes which he admits may anger some and appear to.go against the stated core philosophy.
He asks for their patience while they work through everything.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, I think a mistake that people make on here is believing that basically only old EQ players are interested in playing. I think people will find there is a higher number of people wanting to play from vanguard and ffxi then they think. Also delete5230 may have a point about the old being like the new to many out there.
I think a bigger mistake might be in assuming Pantheon will actually end up that much like EQ.
Maybe you missed the streams, but it's currently very similar conceptually. Don't know what you saw that made you think they were going to change. Completely open world/no instancing, no fast travel, high risk vs high reward, highly cooperative/limited soloing. The only known systems which may run contrary to that philosophy would be caravans and mentoring.
While I'd like to think there would be none of the convenience features of that sort (because it never truly improves the game or player retention), it will probably exist in some forms to some degree. Still, from what they've said, it will be minimal.
From Brads last few blogs, he seems to be considering some changes which he admits may anger some and appear to.go against the stated core philosophy.
He asks for their patience while they work through everything.
I'm not up on any blogs, it's too early in development for me to go deep. However I consider him a genius when it comes to creating mmos. So if he is making changes I believe in him and his ability to make mmos. But I guess I could understand the feelings on the original player base wanting exact nostalgia.
To this day he is unmatched on character development. This is where he seems to focus everything in all his games. This to me is the key to the universe.
I'm 100% for group content...100% ... But in reality the game better have a good percentage of solo content.
Ten percent, twenty percent, it's hard to put a number on it. But this is a must for this game to survive. To me this is just a cold hard fact. It's human nature for people to run off and do their own thing now and then.
I'm completely confident Brad will make us a great mmo, I'm only concerned with the coding and will it play !
Yeah, I think a mistake that people make on here is believing that basically only old EQ players are interested in playing. I think people will find there is a higher number of people wanting to play from vanguard and ffxi then they think. Also delete5230 may have a point about the old being like the new to many out there.
I think a bigger mistake might be in assuming Pantheon will actually end up that much like EQ.
Maybe you missed the streams, but it's currently very similar conceptually. Don't know what you saw that made you think they were going to change. Completely open world/no instancing, no fast travel, high risk vs high reward, highly cooperative/limited soloing. The only known systems which may run contrary to that philosophy would be caravans and mentoring.
While I'd like to think there would be none of the convenience features of that sort (because it never truly improves the game or player retention), it will probably exist in some forms to some degree. Still, from what they've said, it will be minimal.
From Brads last few blogs, he seems to be considering some changes which he admits may anger some and appear to.go against the stated core philosophy.
He asks for their patience while they work through everything.
I'm not up on any blogs, it's too early in development for me to go deep. However I consider him a genius when it comes to creating mmos. So if he is making changes I believe in him and his ability to make mmos. But I guess I could understand the feelings on the original player base wanting exact nostalgia.
To this day he is unmatched on character development. This is where he seems to focus everything in all his games. This to me is the key to the universe.
I'm 100% for group content...100% ... But in reality the game better have a good percentage of solo content.
Ten percent, twenty percent, it's hard to put a number on it. But this is a must for this game to survive. To me this is just a cold hard fact. It's human nature for people to run off and do their own thing now and then.
I'm completely confident Brad will make us a great mmo, I'm only concerned with the coding and will it play !
Check this one out, I think it hints strongly of changes to come.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Do those MUDs charge you $14.99/mo. to play? And what are the system requirements?
I think this is a pretty awful comparison, and "circumstantial proof" of nothing, really....
Games of this type are extremely niche. There's probably a reason why they aren't being developed outside of Asia - where games are made grindy [intentionally] to profit off of the business model of selling game play time, not simply game "Access" used in some countries (like Korea).
The games are ported to here from Asia, but they tend to plateau easily and lose subscribers over time, as people get burned out on the grinding and huge time sinks.
Also, while social gaming is great... There is a thin line between loving to play a group-based game and paying to play a game that you require other people you can't thoroughly rely on to derive any entertainment from...
On one side of that line, you're having fun. On the other side of that line, you're wasting money (and being frustrated).
Playing on an EQ progression server is not the same as playing EQ when the content was current and being released.
It's about 10x faster, which is why you see people getting to level 50 in days when the progression server opens. A lot of the changes they've made to the game are still on the progression server. They don't have a way to properly filter it out and introduce it in the same way it was introduced organically over the game's life.
People go to the Progression Servers to race to the end, and then they pretty much die out to a fair/large extent.
Same thing happens in EQ2.
Same thing happens in all older games that open progression servers.
And the amount of people playing EQ is borderline ignorable in the grand scheme of things (in this large market), anywyas.
EQ only ever peaked at around 250k players or so, and they'd lost half of those by 2005 or so - before WoW was ever released.
No one is doubting that there are people who enjoy this type of game.
I'm just doubting that it's as many people as some here seem to insinuate. There is a reason why VR stated they were "okay with being niche."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
How can it be unique, when you can just play the other game it's cloning right now... before the clone is even on the market.
Do you know what unique actually means, or are you attempting to redefine it?
It's your opinion that EQ evolved for the better. I wholly disagree. I think around the LDON/GOD era the evolution of EQ finally killed a large percentage of what made the game great to begin with and people started looking for alternatives. (I actually think the decline started with PoP/Luclin but...) It so happens that GOD coincides with (roughly) with the release of WoW, and WoW did take a lot of those subs. I wouldnt argue that proves WoW is a better game, or that it doubled-down on things EQ was evolving toward in a necessary way. I would instead argue that it was new, different, and people were sick of what EQ was becoming and looking for any alternative. If they were going to get less appealing mechanics they might as well get it from a new, modern game with a massive budget based on a beloved backstory, than get the same less appealing mechanics in a game that was aged and modified nearly beyond recognition of its former glory.
Retaining MMO players is definately the key to the longevity of a game. Ironically you seem to hold WoW as a paragon of these ideal, but I find myself renewing my sub on WoW just long enough to blast to the new max level, run enough dungeons in a very short period to get the best gear that non-raid content can provide, maybe doing a little pvp, and ending my sub again within 2 month's span. I'm not alone in this, I know.
-Feyshtey-
ps. EQ topped out at over half a million players around the turn of the century, a time when most people still didn't even have internet. It would not be hard for them to attract a sizeable audience in 2017 with a game based on the proposed model. It was extremely fun, addicting, social and different from anything currently offered.
Hitting half a million players and keeping a consistent population was huge. Few online games have hit those number 15 years later.
Around 2004 I decided to buy World of Warcraft, I had no one to talk to about it. I went to EBGames and the guy talked me out of it. I'm like why ?.... You don't have the hardware, he told me. But here is some kind of shooter that will play. At home it still wouldn't play. Took it back bought World of Warcraft and spent a lot of money just get it running.
Even the fellow nerds thought I was crazy for paying all that money for a video card and ram.
I am slightly sad that Pantheon wont have a seamless world and realistic viewing distances, like Vanguard did, but oh well.
Its certainly not at the place at which it will be at release.
That obviously depends upon how successful it will be. If we get millions of players it WILL (or SHOULD) get a polish like an AAA game.
Improved Internet access of course, but also so many more gaming choices today vs 2000, entirely new platforms such as mobile, VR, AR and more.
EQs success 19 years ago is no predictor of Pantheon today, especially as Brads most recent posts appear to suggest a realignment of the game's design to something a bit further from EQ than some fans may care for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just really think there's not enough known about this 2020 player base to be comfortable with even an estimation of 25,000 players.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Good point about the Unknown 2020 player base.
I always say this "old school only" thing is a bunch of crap. New players will be coming on board like crazy...... Why ?...... Because it's new again !
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I'd like to think there would be none of the convenience features of that sort (because it never truly improves the game or player retention), it will probably exist in some forms to some degree. Still, from what they've said, it will be minimal.
EQ didn't really require a GPU of any decency to play until around 2004 or so, (after Planes of Power) when they upgraded the graphics Engine for DX9. Until then, I was playing on an old Voodoo3 graphics card on a P3. I put EQ on my older laptop with an AMD A10-5745M APU, and it was laggy as all hell, because GPU almost doesn't matter to EQ. It's all about the CPU. EQ2 has the same issues (it has terrible GPU usage, and high CPU requirements). There are games released in 2010-2014 which play better on that laptop than EverQuest.
Also, EQ topped off at half a million "players," but by that time a lot of those "players" were boxed toons. I don't know any other progression raider who didn't have 2 accounts - one with their main and another with a raid alt they kept decently-fully geared up. EQ saw a lot of account trading as well, so many people would buy accounts, quit and resale them (causing all sorts of issues for guilds when accounts would get recalled or locked).
EQ died pretty quickly - during the Gates of Discord expansion it lost a lot of its top guilds to WoW Beta, etc. in a fairly short span of time. It never really recovered, and it never really saw the same kind of "bump" that WoW sees at Expansion launches for Omens of War, DoDH, PoR, etc.
I think this was the case because a lot of EQ players played with the same people for years, and it was the primary thing keeping them on the game. That's why guilds tended to quit en masse, and never return. No one wanted to start over building relationships that - to them - were as legitimate as any other RL friendship. A lot of EQ Guilds used to do IRL meet-ups, go to SOE's annual event together, etc.
I actually met a few people from EQ in WoW, because I use the same character name in all the other MMORPGs that I play. It was quite cool that they remembered me after a decade, just from my character name, and I remembered them from theirs.
I think people are putting a little too much stock in EQ's gameplay... Back then, it was slim pickings for MMORPGs, and either you put up or shut up. Once the "modern" wave of MMORPGs hit the market (or were about to), EQ quickly faded into irrelevance.
I don't think that's merely coincidental.
In any case, no one is trying to convince anyone here NOT to play Pantheon. It's your money to spend how you wish. We just don't feel the need to censor our different opinions on certain matters.
I love how it's gone from "It's like EQ" to "Well, it's like EQ... but Early EQ... cause of course the expansions that made EQ "easier" is what drove players away... Not the antique gameplay and Korean-style grinding."
EDIT: ^- Seems to be a common theme I'm noticing on various Pantheon forums and Reddit. It's as if they've prepared the talking points, and are quick to jot them down every time someone mentions these things.
Yes, it's new.
But, the game doesn't play itself.
Many new MMORPGs have been released since EQ. Almost as many have utterly failed in the market, because hype only gets you the initial sales. It doesn't keep people subscribed month after month.
You could technically play the game without a video card, but if you didn't want 5fps when someone casted a spell or there were a lot of people around, you needed one. There weren't any sliders early on to turn settings down or off.
EQ didn't "evolve", it changed. Some liked what it became, some merely enjoyed it because there was nothing comparable until WoW. Many of us did not care for it at all and have hoped someone would make something like it since.
He asks for their patience while they work through everything.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not up on any blogs, it's too early in development for me to go deep. However I consider him a genius when it comes to creating mmos. So if he is making changes I believe in him and his ability to make mmos. But I guess I could understand the feelings on the original player base wanting exact nostalgia.
To this day he is unmatched on character development. This is where he seems to focus everything in all his games. This to me is the key to the universe.
I'm 100% for group content...100% ... But in reality the game better have a good percentage of solo content.
Ten percent, twenty percent, it's hard to put a number on it. But this is a must for this game to survive. To me this is just a cold hard fact. It's human nature for people to run off and do their own thing now and then.
I'm completely confident Brad will make us a great mmo, I'm only concerned with the coding and will it play !
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/183/matchmaking-systems-what-we-re-up-to-and-why-part-1
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon