Loot Mechanics

Amathe

In EQ, after a kill the group members typed roll 1-100 (or something like that) and the winner then looted the item from the corpse. The group or raid members would ideally have agreed in advance on who was eligible for what type of loot. If they didn't, a "discussion" often ensued.

WoW and games after WoW added some features like Need before Greed and so on, which in EQ was not a mechanic but rather a social expectation by your group mates that you won't roll on things that are not an upgrade for you when someone else needs it.

Later, Wow added more mechanics to where loot just shows up in your bag when it's yours. There are also probably some raid level exceptions I am skipping over.

So my question is, in the interests of preserving as much of the spirit of EQ and games like it, are we returning to straight up roll 1 100? I confess as heated as they sometimes were, I kind of miss the drama that system brought about.

If you want to get people to socially interact, having them speak up on loot distribution will definitely serve that objective.  

svann

When EQ added loot mechanics recently it was a great improvement.   The consensus became if its something you want then click need.  Vendor loot: need, stuff to sell to players: need, stuff you would wear: obvious need.  Then if there is something one would wear and another would sell then it can be dicussed.  Made everything simpler.  Also, mass killing for tradeskill mats became 1000x easier because you no longer have to dig through a pile of corpses one by one.

Dullahan

I wouldn't mind if it was all done manually, but I seriously doubt that will be the case. Probably group leaders will have a group menu to select looting modes. Hopefully the default doesn't have us rolling on every item that drops, because that's annoying.

Personally I think the less interaction with menus and windows in an mmo, the better.

Zuljan

The good old magic dye rolls in PUGs..." 1 = re roll (because everyone was superstitious lol) 2 = Amathe 3 = Svann 4 = Dulla, 5 = re roll..." ahhh..now that I reflect, it did add so much suspense while you waited for the roll lol...I'll never forget when I got my Rotting Fist off of the Bertoxxulus PUG. Convinced my parents to let me skip the movie in the living room to go on this raid. It felt better than any gift I'd ever gotten on Christmas when I won that roll against 6 or so other people (I must've been 14ish). Good times.

Amathe

And of course there is the moment when the item of your dreams finally drops and you roll a 1. 

Kumapon

Amathe said:

And of course there is the moment when the item of your dreams finally drops and you roll a 1. 

That always happened to me, each and every time. I swear I have no luck. 

Adamantine

Yikes.

I would NOT want such a primitive system. What a megahassle !

Need/Greed/Pass system please. Defaulting on Pass. If everyone presses pass, the item is freely lootable.

P.s.: Oh and if you cannot use the item, you cannot "need" it.

P.p.s.: For raids we had a master looter and a point system. If you wanted an item, you would make bids until the highest bid won.

SavageHorizon

I think need or greed but I wouldn't mind the 1-100 again lol. 

Mendel

Nice one, @Amathe.  'Discussions'.  'Discussions' became the majority of the time spent in raids, in my experience.

Loot is going to be an issue in Pantheon.  It has been in every multiplayer game that drops items. It will be a problem in PUGs and in Guild Groups and in Guild raids.  I really hope that VR doesn't actually doesn't go totally old-school on this.  Coins can be autosplit, but items cause grief.  I'd rather keep items off of mobs only dropping coins, with the option for members of the victorious group to 'harvest' natural items from the corpse (no drop no trade, of course).

Since the no items thing probably won't fly (with either this crowd or VR), there can still be improvements.  Rather than leave all the guild points schemes and whatnot to external mechanisms, I'd like to see guilds have a feature to automatically record points (attendance at various points -- triggered by raid leader) and an automatic bid system (individual players spend their points).  This could eliminate those 'I had X points' type 'discussions' that always flair up.  It's a computer.  Capture the data automatically instead of leaving a guild leader to manually transpose the numbers from logs and screen captures.   Maybe even develop several common systems for guilds.  Simply have the guild creator choose the method at creation time.

Nightbringe1

The problem with Need before Greed these days is too many people use the reasoning, "I Need the money"

They need some kind of system to not only block people from hitting need on something they cannot use or have already collected, but to also block them from hitting Need on items that are inferior to what they already own (not necessarily are wearing at that moment).

Amathe

Nightbringe1 said:

The problem with Need before Greed these days is too many people use the reasoning, "I Need the money"

That is not a new problem. It's an old problem.  I can remember people arguing "but I NEED the money" back in early EQ. Of course, I tended not to group with such people thereafter.

Kyleran

Amathe said:

Nightbringe1 said:

The problem with Need before Greed these days is too many people use the reasoning, "I Need the money"

That is not a new problem. It's an old problem.  I can remember people arguing "but I NEED the money" back in early EQ. Of course, I tended not to group with such people thereafter.

Sometimes it's a matter of upbringing. My first MMORPG was NA Lineage 1, loot was auto distributed and the rule there was if the game gave you the drop, you kept it.

Everything could be sold for adena and every one needed a truckload of cash to buy spells, gear or enchanted. Rarely did anyone give anything of real value, even if a clan mate needed it at best you might sell it at the low end of the going price. 

So me and a friend leave and try DAOC, and we're grouped with some others in our first low level dungeon.

This game also auto distributes the loot and before long my friend gets a drop his class can't use. (Keep in mind, we are both impoversed noobs)

One of the other group members stuns both of us by asking for the item.  The rest of the group stuns us again by explaining the "need" concept to loot distribution.

Our thoughts were exactly as you said, we "need " the money. Well we eventually finished the run after agreeing to this new system, but all the while my friend was bitching to me in private tells that he's sure we are getting scammed. (Sure,  and how much for the dungeon elevator pass again? )

Was all just trash gear but when you are fighting in rags every copper counts.  

centkin

Personally I think loot should be a 1 bid auctioning thing.  Item drops -- people bid whatever amount they want on the item -- item goes to the high bidder and the coins bid are split among everyone else.

You can then go on hunts where there really isn't anything you need (or a very limited number of items you care about) and you get gold out of it from the other people who do need the stuff.

Optionally you would be able to set a maximum bid amount per item to prevent rich people from monopolizing the very best items.  So you could set say 2,000 gold as the maximum and then the raid level breastplate would be a random among everyone who bid 2,000.

----

If you wanted only 5 levels of "need/want" you could have it set up as say 1% 5% 20% 50% and 100% of the maxbid...  So in the above example some craftable drops..  You can choose pass, 20, 100, 400, 1000, or 2000.  It is randomed among whoever went for the highest category and the money is split among everyone who didn't win.

Wizardry

bidding,are you trying to encourage rmt and unfair practices...shame shame.

If they want the most fair way to do it,there are a few options.Obviously unknown drops will be tough but there is still a way but i'll focus on known drops.

A pre order to looting,so that person and so on get specific choice weather to take or pass to the next.This works because if you head out a s group targeting a specific mob,then you are likely doing it for someone or two people.

Already seen in almost every game the rng betting rolls.

An order that gives related class first dibs.If nobody or certain people don't want that drop,then use the random rng process,in which case the related class player/s would pass and allow the random rng to work.

centkin

Wizardry said:

bidding,are you trying to encourage rmt and unfair practices...shame shame.

If they want the most fair way to do it,there are a few options.Obviously unknown drops will be tough but there is still a way but i'll focus on known drops.

A pre order to looting,so that person and so on get specific choice weather to take or pass to the next.This works because if you head out a s group targeting a specific mob,then you are likely doing it for someone or two people.

Already seen in almost every game the rng betting rolls.

An order that gives related class first dibs.If nobody or certain people don't want that drop,then use the random rng process,in which case the related class player/s would pass and allow the random rng to work.

How does this encourage RMT?  It just makes it so you need to have some skin in the game to get an item as opposed to someone just doing need all the time.  It also gives something to the people who do not win, as well as make it more worthwhile for people to go on raids and runs that are less likely to specifically benefit them. 

In your world, you end up with say 2 people getting the item they want at the final boss out of 20 and the rest of the people getting nothing.  In mine 2 people got the item and lost 2000 coins and the rest of the people on the raid gained 222 coins.  I think the latter is far nicer.

Iamkriil

There should definitely be some sort of structured loot system built in to the game.  Looting has caused so much grief - even to the point where guilds fractured.

I understand that to progress the entire guild to harder content you need to focus on gearing your main tank (and other 'core' members) but that seemed to lead to certain people getting all the good stuff first and then the core group never wanted to go back and do the easier content to get everyone good gear.  

Some sort of built-in guild-wide loot rules and DKP system would be great.  Participating in raids and really working through content as a guild should be the norm and I don't mind if that is enforced by the game itself.

As for normal grouping, the EQ Live system (https://www.everquest.com/news/advanced-looting-system) is pretty cool, if somewhat confusing, but has TONS of options and still provides the opportunity for people to talk about looting.

Albatroes

Yeah...lets go with structured looting and even the dumbed down wow version that makes it so you can only need for your class/spec/etc. I dont miss the days of ninja lots tbh.

Theocritus

Looting has been a big reason why many don't like grouping anymore...Unless you are with a group that you have played with several times, often one or two players make off with the majority of the loot....Thats kinda why no drop was nice, but even it had issues as some players accidentally looted items.

rygard49

The old loot system promotes negative interaction. It's in everyone's best interest to argue for their own personal right to loot, whether it be for money or upgrades. Even if you have a group that's 100% amicable, there will eventually be a disagreement over loot rights because... humans on the interweb.

I say personal loot all the way. Take the arguments and the bickering out of the equation, and just let the computer decide whether you feast or starve. Then if something sweet drops for you that your group member could use, here comes a positive interaction as you guys discuss a beneficial trade, or a saintly act of benevolence.

Dullahan

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

svann

Dullahan said:

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

I remember plenty of times when people gamed those mechanics.  Such as 5 guildies all rolling on it then giving it to the one that needs it - leaving you with a 1:6 chance of winning anything because they always all roll against you.  And what chance is there of any consequence then?  Not much unless the server is willing to blackball an entire guild.  Not likely.  I often hear about consequences but in my experience that was a rarity.

Dullahan

svann said:

Dullahan said:

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

I remember plenty of times when people gamed those mechanics.  Such as 5 guildies all rolling on it then giving it to the one that needs it - leaving you with a 1:6 chance of winning anything because they always all roll against you.  And what chance is there of any consequence then?  Not much unless the server is willing to blackball an entire guild.  Not likely.  I often hear about consequences but in my experience that was a rarity.

Did you play EQ? I never saw anything like that, but when guilds did cross others, they paid for it. Guilds like that would struggle to get players, and every guild relied on randoms for groups. That reputation would guarantee that nobody outside of your guild grouped with you again.

Kefo

svann said:

Dullahan said:

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

I remember plenty of times when people gamed those mechanics.  Such as 5 guildies all rolling on it then giving it to the one that needs it - leaving you with a 1:6 chance of winning anything because they always all roll against you.  And what chance is there of any consequence then?  Not much unless the server is willing to blackball an entire guild.  Not likely.  I often hear about consequences but in my experience that was a rarity.

That scenario doesn't change your odds even if everyone was still rolling for themselves. You still have a 1 in 6 chance of winning the item. If guildmates all want to roll and the winner pass the loot onto the person that needed it most who cares? they won it so they can do with it as they please.

The FBSS camp comes to mind. Everyone came to agreement that while it was better for some classes (think monk over enchanter) everyone has a fair roll at the FBSS when it dropped otherwise why would that chanter stick around? or the cleric? You would agree to the rule before getting invited or you didn't get into the camp. A 1 in 6 chance is better then no chance in my mind.

If someone broke the rules either in a group or a raid then they were blackballed and we did blackball entire guilds on our server. It was amazing how fast guild rivalries would be put aside to make sure every single raid target was killed before the black balled guild could even amass a force large enough to attempt it. Eventually they would disband because no one would invite them to group with that guild tag and they weren't raiding because there was no raid targets.

Zuljan

Kefo said:

svann said:

Dullahan said:

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

I remember plenty of times when people gamed those mechanics.  Such as 5 guildies all rolling on it then giving it to the one that needs it - leaving you with a 1:6 chance of winning anything because they always all roll against you.  And what chance is there of any consequence then?  Not much unless the server is willing to blackball an entire guild.  Not likely.  I often hear about consequences but in my experience that was a rarity.

That scenario doesn't change your odds even if everyone was still rolling for themselves. You still have a 1 in 6 chance of winning the item. If guildmates all want to roll and the winner pass the loot onto the person that needed it most who cares? they won it so they can do with it as they please.

The FBSS camp comes to mind. Everyone came to agreement that while it was better for some classes (think monk over enchanter) everyone has a fair roll at the FBSS when it dropped otherwise why would that chanter stick around? or the cleric? You would agree to the rule before getting invited or you didn't get into the camp. A 1 in 6 chance is better then no chance in my mind.

If someone broke the rules either in a group or a raid then they were blackballed and we did blackball entire guilds on our server. It was amazing how fast guild rivalries would be put aside to make sure every single raid target was killed before the black balled guild could even amass a force large enough to attempt it. Eventually they would disband because no one would invite them to group with that guild tag and they weren't raiding because there was no raid targets.

Can't wait for the large scale guild competition/alliances to return. We'd save the corpse loot for a main tank, dps, etc of an allied guild (we'd sometimes physically call them and have them log in and come get the free upgrades since it inevitably helped us in the end). 

Having a strong guild or friends is really important to bypass all of the randomness in PUG rolling. By the time we hit "FBSS" level in Pantheon (that was the first high value/impact, low-level item everyone would go after apart from twink items), we will be able to make it to all of our friends etc, so that people playing alone at early levels aren't denied content. They also mentioned a mechanism to make it easier to group with people (he said it was part of the low level beginner tips/tutorial I believe).

svann

Kefo said:

svann said:

Dullahan said:

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

I remember plenty of times when people gamed those mechanics.  Such as 5 guildies all rolling on it then giving it to the one that needs it - leaving you with a 1:6 chance of winning anything because they always all roll against you.  And what chance is there of any consequence then?  Not much unless the server is willing to blackball an entire guild.  Not likely.  I often hear about consequences but in my experience that was a rarity.

That scenario doesn't change your odds even if everyone was still rolling for themselves. You still have a 1 in 6 chance of winning the item.

No, if only 1 other person needed it I should have had a 50% chance.  1 in 6 is much worse.

Or look at it this way:
If everyone, including me, has a 33% chance of actually needing the next drop but they all roll on it anyway then for the next drop I have a (33%)(17%) = 6% chance of getting an item.  If people only rolled need on what they really needed then Id have a (33%)(50%)= 17% chance.  The odds absolutely do change.

Kefo

svann said:

Kefo said:

svann said:

Dullahan said:

Never had a problem with old loot systems. In a heavily cooperative game, being a dick comes with consequences. Automating the process just removes one more reason for interaction.

I remember plenty of times when people gamed those mechanics.  Such as 5 guildies all rolling on it then giving it to the one that needs it - leaving you with a 1:6 chance of winning anything because they always all roll against you.  And what chance is there of any consequence then?  Not much unless the server is willing to blackball an entire guild.  Not likely.  I often hear about consequences but in my experience that was a rarity.

That scenario doesn't change your odds even if everyone was still rolling for themselves. You still have a 1 in 6 chance of winning the item.

No, if only 1 other person needed it I should have had a 50% chance.  1 in 6 is much worse.

Or look at it this way:
If everyone, including me, has a 33% chance of actually needing the next drop but they all roll on it anyway then for the next drop I have a (33%)(17%) = 6% chance of getting an item.  If people only rolled need on what they really needed then Id have a (33%)(50%)= 17% chance.  The odds absolutely do change.

If everyone except 2 people already won the item then they shouldn't be rolling and that should be explicitly stated in the group rules otherwise too bad. 

If no one has the item and you are rolling for yourself and the other 5 are rolling for 1 person your odds don't improve.

Again though you are thinking need over greed which works fine in a group of friends or guild mates but in a pug in EQ everyone was entitled for a chance at the loot unless you already had that exact same item otherwise what would be their incentive? 

Yeah it might take you longer to get the FBSS but you also made some friends and you'd probably get an invite to a group that had a really nice caster drop and you would be allowed to roll on it as well as a melee.

Its things like that that ensured whenever I logged onto my monk I always had a tell asking if I wanted to come join some people at a specific camp because I played my class well but I also wasn't a dick that assumed I was entitled to a drop over everyone else in the group because it was better for me.