That's good that they are being serious about not allowing any cheating in their game but discord and overlays should be allowed every game I play on PC has no issues with those.
Edit: I play D2 on PS4 and in pvp this guy was lagging so bad and it was on purpose very hard to kill him yet he was killing everyone, I was teamed up with a friend he saw same thing as me we reported his ass.
Yep, the actual problem with D2 will begin to show itself soon enough. That problem being Peer to Peer hosting. Even with their alleged "technical innovations" there will always be an issue when someone has super shit internet but is also the match host. They will always see you first, and they will lag all over. Even if they aren't host, they will still be teleporting all over the place.
Same problem with D1, and many other fps games that decide dedicated servers aren't worth the cost.
Wait....this game uses peer2peer instead of a traditional server? Lolz game gonna have issues for sure.....
As to all the people saying all those that got banned are cheating liars..... please buy a vowel and get a clue there's no way they are checking people one by one for cheating.
It's clear they have some kind of program or code checking and it's pitching up false positives unless you all you clever people are going to argue false positives are an impossibility?
I mean seriously how many times have we all had to stick a game in our antivirus exception list etc etc? I would not even be surprised if some people are coping a ban for using particular hardware that has macro ability etc....I have seen it before in other games.
Geez as if companies do not lie through their teeth if they deem it cost effective...
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
It's not a shame at all. I have no problems filing a chargeback in cases like this. I don't feel companies that act like this way should be supported and as a prudent consumer, I vote with my wallet. It also means I won't be buying my kids the game for christmas so that's an easy 200$ off the top they won't be getting plus + whatever I might have paid in microtrans for myself and the kids. I'm a huge Warframe fan. The only reason I bought the game for myself was a few friends are hardcore Destiny fans and wanted me to get in on it with them when I had the time.
People need to quit enabling companies like Bungie and people like yourself need to realize there are a lot of people out there who do play as intended and get caught up in bullshit triggers often enough to not be outright mocked. That's probably the real shame. Oh, and also that Bungie is going to continue to see events like this because D2 is nothing more than a lightly updated/reskinned D1. They have screwed the pooch royally, and as usual have tried to lie, and play down the actual cause/events.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
It's not a shame at all. I have no problems filing a chargeback in cases like this. I don't feel companies that act like this way should be supported and as a prudent consumer, I vote with my wallet. It also means I won't be buying my kids the game for christmas so that's an easy 200$ off the top they won't be getting plus + whatever I might have paid in microtrans for myself and the kids. I'm a huge Warframe fan. The only reason I bought the game for myself was a few friends are hardcore Destiny fans and wanted me to get in on it with them when I had the time.
People need to quit enabling companies like Bungie and people like yourself need to realize there are a lot of people out there who do play as intended and get caught up in bullshit triggers often enough to not be outright mocked. That's probably the real shame. Oh, and also that Bungie is going to continue to see events like this because D2 is nothing more than a lightly updated/reskinned D1. They have screwed the pooch royally, and as usual have tried to lie, and play down the actual cause/events.
Either that, or maybe they were concerned that the myriad of chargebacks and refunds would put them over the threshold of their processor, which would cause their right to process credit cards to be revoked.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
I predict this saga with be forgotten shortly and outside of a few people, most people don't give two forks.
Nice spin you've put on this from your initial statements.
"lolol you're dirty liars who don't deserve to be listened to, history proves that banned people are all liars"
"lololol in a few weeks no one will even remember this utter screwup"
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
I predict this saga with be forgotten shortly and outside of a few people, most people don't give two forks.
Nice spin you've put on this from your initial statements.
"lolol you're dirty liars who don't deserve to be listened to, history proves that banned people are all liars"
"lololol in a few weeks no one will even remember this utter screwup"
To be fair, Bungie's error might only be that they didn't wait long enough to establish a patterned behavior. You could very well be a cheater, but they simply can't prove that because they didn't establish that this was something you were engaging in willingly and often (since their data sample was so small).
Confirmed banned for having afterburner running (literally the only outside program running at the time of play). I have discord but a) it wasnt running at the time I had D2 open and b) I dont run the overlay anyways, so afterburner is the only other potential culprit. Already filed a chargeback with Visa. Absolutely trash.
Im running afterburner and can confirm I havent been banned.
People that actually cheat and got banned will lie their asses off. They will jump on this bandwagon and claim they werent running anything shady. Only afterburner or the nvidia overlay or discord. They will tell you that they forced a chargeback and they will say Bungie is shit.
And there you have it. Misinformation and the sad stupidity that a random internet person can be trusted more than a company representative.
If that makes you feel smart, then I feel sad for you.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
That's funny, I don't remember anyone in these games labeled "P2W" being banned without reason.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
I predict this saga with be forgotten shortly and outside of a few people, most people don't give two forks.
Nice spin you've put on this from your initial statements.
"lolol you're dirty liars who don't deserve to be listened to, history proves that banned people are all liars"
"lololol in a few weeks no one will even remember this utter screwup"
To be fair, Bungie's error might only be that they didn't wait long enough to establish a patterned behavior. You could very well be a cheater, but they simply can't prove that because they didn't establish that this was something you were engaging in willingly and often (since their data sample was so small).
You're right, at lvl 3 I was cheating my happy butt off. No, the reality is they screwed up and now we have a bunch of rabid fan boys slightly tweaking their stories from you're a dirty liar to, whatever is easier to go with now. It's as pathetic as the new developer craze of pushing out halfway finished games. Either way, I'm done having said my piece, having gotten my money back, and have no further interest in Bungie or D2. You guys enjoy living in your little worlds where Bungie does no wrong.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
That's funny, I don't remember anyone in these games labeled "P2W" being banned without reason.
Maybe your statement is a red herring?
No more so than your argument from experience, or in this case lack of. You reiterating the lack of impact cheating has had on you is meant to persuade others that cheating isn't an issue because you've not experienced it. It's a fallacy and the only worthy comeback is another fallacy. At least he had the class not to go nuclear with the ad hominem right out of the gate.
There's a entirely different burden of proof of effect when you're talking about banning paying customers from using your product without valid reason.
And you're also claiming a red herring, Torval. I never said that cheating isn't an issue, I said it isn't a big enough issue, from my experience in well over a decade of gaming, to justify banning folks who aren't engaging in the behavior as acceptable collateral damage.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
I predict this saga with be forgotten shortly and outside of a few people, most people don't give two forks.
Nice spin you've put on this from your initial statements.
"lolol you're dirty liars who don't deserve to be listened to, history proves that banned people are all liars"
"lololol in a few weeks no one will even remember this utter screwup"
To be fair, Bungie's error might only be that they didn't wait long enough to establish a patterned behavior. You could very well be a cheater, but they simply can't prove that because they didn't establish that this was something you were engaging in willingly and often (since their data sample was so small).
You're right, at lvl 3 I was cheating my happy butt off. No, the reality is they screwed up and now we have a bunch of rabid fan boys slightly tweaking their stories from you're a dirty liar to, whatever is easier to go with now. It's as pathetic as the new developer craze of pushing out halfway finished games. Either way, I'm done having said my piece, having gotten my money back, and have no further interest in Bungie or D2. You guys enjoy living in your little worlds where Bungie does no wrong.
Oh, I have no doubt that they screwed up. What I was saying is that these systems are generally developed based on machine learning, like how your email detects spam. The problem is that they obviously didn't do enough work on the LEARNING part. So they can't say you were cheating and they can't say you weren't. That's not because they were wrong in all cases, but they just don't have enough information to make an actual definitive assertion. I am confident that they have a broken system, though. I think that's obvious. However, the fact that they unbanned people also doesn't mean those people weren't cheating, it simply means that they had a flawed system to begin with.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
That's funny, I don't remember anyone in these games labeled "P2W" being banned without reason.
Maybe your statement is a red herring?
No more so than your argument from experience, or in this case lack of. You reiterating the lack of impact cheating has had on you is meant to persuade others that cheating isn't an issue because you've not experienced it. It's a fallacy and the only worthy comeback is another fallacy. At least he had the class not to go nuclear with the ad hominem right out of the gate.
There's a entirely different burden of proof of effect when you're talking about banning paying customers from using your product without valid reason.
Don't most of these EULAs pretty much say they can deny access to their game at any time for almost any reason?
You might be able to to secure some sort of refund but ultimately you can't force your way in.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've never done a credit card chargeback in my life. But if I spent $60+ on a product that was immediately taken away from me with no reason. And the company told me, "Sorry, we don't do reviews of bans, all bans are final", you better believe I'd be on the phone with the CC company in a flash.
I understand and agree however as I mentioned I thought it might have been in error and I would have sat tight for a bit to see how things played out.
Patience is something I have in abundance and I've come to see many don't, perhaps it's just an age related thing.
As for chargebacks never done one, perhaps I might if I was sure my relationship was completely over with a particular vendor, but Activision / Blizzard is one that I'd give pause to even though I've not purchased any of their titles since WOW Cata.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
That's funny, I don't remember anyone in these games labeled "P2W" being banned without reason.
Maybe your statement is a red herring?
No more so than your argument from experience, or in this case lack of. You reiterating the lack of impact cheating has had on you is meant to persuade others that cheating isn't an issue because you've not experienced it. It's a fallacy and the only worthy comeback is another fallacy. At least he had the class not to go nuclear with the ad hominem right out of the gate.
There's a entirely different burden of proof of effect when you're talking about banning paying customers from using your product without valid reason.
Don't most of these EULAs pretty much say they can deny access to their game at any time for almost any reason?
You might be able to to secure some sort of refund but ultimately you can't force your way in.
Of course they can. Only, they don't, because that's PR suicide. It's really not relevant to the original argument to which I responded that collateral damage didn't seem reasonable considering the impact I've experienced from the targeted behavior.
And you're also claiming a red herring, Torval. I never said that cheating isn't an issue, I said it isn't a big enough issue, from my experience in well over a decade of gaming, to justify banning folks who aren't engaging in the behavior as acceptable collateral damage.
So you never said that cheating isn't an issue, but that it's not a big enough issue based on your experience. That makes the argument from experience all the more valid, oh not it doesn't (that's sarcasm).
Cheating is an issue on the PC with shooters. They banned a few hundred people. The few false positives are less than 15 one thousandth of a percent. That is less than .00015 of the playerbase. That is an acceptable margin of error and worth it. Not doing anything is worse and would sack the game for the other 2.5M people playing.
It's not an either/or. I highly doubt Bungie would've said "well, if it's banning folks who aren't engaging in behavior, there's just nothing else we can do about cheating in general!" C'mon, check your attitude at the door.
And sack what experience, exactly? Destiny is not a PvP-centered experience. If someone cheats, the worst effect it has on your PvE experience is that it makes whatever content you're playing alongside them trivial for that specific run.
If I'm not mistaken, there's not even a peer2peer economy system to exploit by farming. Has that changed from when I played the previous title?
If this were Halo, which is revered just as much for its PvP experience as it is for its PvE narrative experience, I'd send more credence to the idea. As it stands, you still have only proven that your morality policing is the real issue here, not some proven degradation of your experience. Unless, of course, you were eagerly awaiting Destiny 2 for its PvP content. From the posts I've seen from you talking about your Destiny 2 experience, I find that's not the case.
I've never done a credit card chargeback in my life. But if I spent $60+ on a product that was immediately taken away from me with no reason. And the company told me, "Sorry, we don't do reviews of bans, all bans are final", you better believe I'd be on the phone with the CC company in a flash.
I understand and agree however as I mentioned I thought it might have been in error and I would have sat tight for a bit to see how things played out.
Patience is something I have in abundance and I've come to see many don't, perhaps it's just an age related thing.
As for chargebacks never done one, perhaps I might if I was sure my relationship was completely over with a particular vendor, but Activision / Blizzard is one that I'd give pause to even though I've not purchased any of their titles since WOW Cata.
I'm 40, and my patience is legendary among my friends and family, to the point where they've likened it to the formation of a glacier. But in this situation, I probably would have jumped on the chargeback just as hastily as Bungie issued the bans. People reported that they contacted the source where they purchased the game from and were informed of Bungie's policy of no reversal on bans. At that point, I likely wouldn't have waited to reverse the charges.
I've never done a credit card chargeback in my life. But if I spent $60+ on a product that was immediately taken away from me with no reason. And the company told me, "Sorry, we don't do reviews of bans, all bans are final", you better believe I'd be on the phone with the CC company in a flash.
I understand and agree however as I mentioned I thought it might have been in error and I would have sat tight for a bit to see how things played out.
Patience is something I have in abundance and I've come to see many don't, perhaps it's just an age related thing.
As for chargebacks never done one, perhaps I might if I was sure my relationship was completely over with a particular vendor, but Activision / Blizzard is one that I'd give pause to even though I've not purchased any of their titles since WOW Cata.
I'm 40, and my patience is legendary among my friends and family, to the point where they've likened it to the formation of a glacier. But in this situation, I probably would have jumped on the chargeback just as hastily as Bungie issued the bans. People reported that they contacted the source where they purchased the game from and were informed of Bungie's policy of no reversal on bans. At that point, I likely wouldn't have waited to reverse the charges.
My patience might be EPIC level then as I no longer purchase games until 6 months to a year post final release, usually have most of the issues worked through by then.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
That's funny, I don't remember anyone in these games labeled "P2W" being banned without reason.
Maybe your statement is a red herring?
Not at all, I'm suggesting that maybe it's a problem, maybe it isn't. Like you, cheating has never impacted me at all. Now! If Destiny actually plans to be an eSport, then I suppose that it's much more important to ensure it isn't something that is lax on the ban hammer. So I guess it's heavily dependent on the context, too.
Well my PC account was unbanned as of an hour ago. I didn't file anything with them, and they didn't email me any notifications. Quite a few people are reporting they have been unbanned as well. Bungie updated their post to go from '4 people' to a 'small group' and last I count there were 53 of us who have been unbanned at this point.
So yea, all the pompous attitudes in this forum can choke on some crow and realize that bungie is still the same shit company they have always been.
Oh and you already filed your chargeback. That's a shame.
A shame perhaps, but not exactly unexpected, gaining goodwill is difficult, but to garner animosity from players who feel they have been unfairly treated is ridiculously easy, this is why companies have to move quickly when they are perceived to be at fault and damage done is difficult to undo. I suspect this is just the beginning of this particular saga regarding Bungie/Blizzard and Destiny 2.
If what you say is true Electronic Arts would never be able to sell a game, yet millions still flock to them regularly.
Even if Bungie pisses off 100K people its acceptable losses in a game which could easily sell 5M copies.
For some reason customer good will isn't as necessary in gaming as in some other industries. (Especially when the company counts customers in the millions. )
Here's another scenario. There are a few hundred pissed off people and millions of happier players because Bungie takes cheating seriously. Of those few hundred bans how many were false positives? Even if it were all (say it's 400 and they've sold 2.5M copies) that is sixteen one thousandth of a percent of the total players that got banned. In a non-vital system like this that is an acceptable margin of error.
More likely the outrage is from people who do cheat a little or from opportunists who like muck rake. We have an abundance of both in the online gaming community.
So Bungie has restored the few false positives and sent a signal they'll hammer anyone cheating. That's great and exactly the position I want my shooter developer to take.
I do feel bad for the few innocent people who have had to hassle through account restoration. I've not had a ban, but I've had an MMO publisher treat me unfairly before. I'm glad they're getting their accounts restored.
Felt the need to reiterate here: I've never had my gameplay experience degraded by a cheater to the point that I can support the idea that a number of paying gamers who weren't participating in the behavior being banned seems acceptable to me.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
That's funny, I don't remember anyone in these games labeled "P2W" being banned without reason.
Maybe your statement is a red herring?
Not at all, I'm suggesting that maybe it's a problem, maybe it isn't. Like you, cheating has never impacted me at all. Now! If Destiny actually plans to be an eSport, then I suppose that it's much more important to ensure it isn't something that is lax on the ban hammer. So I guess it's heavily dependent on the context, too.
I agree with that. I don't recall anyone submitting they were going for that, but I'm not a close follower of Bungie, either.
My point was precisely that we're not talking about some essential liberty for gamers to be ensured a cheat-free experience, and that the hubbub about unsupported bans seems to be more about a rabid torch-and-pitchfork posturing regarding cheating and how it will destroy the experience for EVERYONE else as a way to support an assertion that really comes off as "hey, it's not ME who was banned for no reason, so no sweat off my back! Fuck 'em."
None of that seems grounded in the reality of the situation, and especially not in a PvE-centered, cooperative shooter.
MOBAs get more leeway with a strict banmmer, in my opinion, because the entire experience is centered around providing a level playing field for a competitive game. Even so, they should take efforts to ensure unsupported bans do not stand. That's just good business etiquette for your customers.
Anyone who has played a competitive online game has likely been impacted by cheaters at some point. As far as shooters go, I remember running into cheaters 16 years ago in Return to Castle Wolfenstein. They found a way to make themselves completely invincible. Aimbots were a big thing going at least as far back as the first CoD in 2003. I'm sure they were around well before then.
Comments
As to all the people saying all those that got banned are cheating liars..... please buy a vowel and get a clue there's no way they are checking people one by one for cheating.
It's clear they have some kind of program or code checking and it's pitching up false positives unless you all you clever people are going to argue false positives are an impossibility?
I mean seriously how many times have we all had to stick a game in our antivirus exception list etc etc? I would not even be surprised if some people are coping a ban for using particular hardware that has macro ability etc....I have seen it before in other games.
Geez as if companies do not lie through their teeth if they deem it cost effective...
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
People need to quit enabling companies like Bungie and people like yourself need to realize there are a lot of people out there who do play as intended and get caught up in bullshit triggers often enough to not be outright mocked. That's probably the real shame. Oh, and also that Bungie is going to continue to see events like this because D2 is nothing more than a lightly updated/reskinned D1. They have screwed the pooch royally, and as usual have tried to lie, and play down the actual cause/events.
Either that, or maybe they were concerned that the myriad of chargebacks and refunds would put them over the threshold of their processor, which would cause their right to process credit cards to be revoked.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"lolol you're dirty liars who don't deserve to be listened to, history proves that banned people are all liars"
"lololol in a few weeks no one will even remember this utter screwup"
To be fair, Bungie's error might only be that they didn't wait long enough to establish a patterned behavior. You could very well be a cheater, but they simply can't prove that because they didn't establish that this was something you were engaging in willingly and often (since their data sample was so small).
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Im running afterburner and can confirm I havent been banned.
And there you have it. Misinformation and the sad stupidity that a random internet person can be trusted more than a company representative.
If that makes you feel smart, then I feel sad for you.
Maybe I'm INCREDIBLY lucky, or maybe the morality policing needs to be toned down a bit.
I could say the same about P2W mechanics, but that seems like something that's also killing the industry (without any evidence of such).
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Maybe your statement is a red herring?
Oh, I have no doubt that they screwed up. What I was saying is that these systems are generally developed based on machine learning, like how your email detects spam. The problem is that they obviously didn't do enough work on the LEARNING part. So they can't say you were cheating and they can't say you weren't. That's not because they were wrong in all cases, but they just don't have enough information to make an actual definitive assertion. I am confident that they have a broken system, though. I think that's obvious. However, the fact that they unbanned people also doesn't mean those people weren't cheating, it simply means that they had a flawed system to begin with.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
You might be able to to secure some sort of refund but ultimately you can't force your way in.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Patience is something I have in abundance and I've come to see many don't, perhaps it's just an age related thing.
As for chargebacks never done one, perhaps I might if I was sure my relationship was completely over with a particular vendor, but Activision / Blizzard is one that I'd give pause to even though I've not purchased any of their titles since WOW Cata.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And sack what experience, exactly? Destiny is not a PvP-centered experience. If someone cheats, the worst effect it has on your PvE experience is that it makes whatever content you're playing alongside them trivial for that specific run.
If I'm not mistaken, there's not even a peer2peer economy system to exploit by farming. Has that changed from when I played the previous title?
If this were Halo, which is revered just as much for its PvP experience as it is for its PvE narrative experience, I'd send more credence to the idea. As it stands, you still have only proven that your morality policing is the real issue here, not some proven degradation of your experience. Unless, of course, you were eagerly awaiting Destiny 2 for its PvP content. From the posts I've seen from you talking about your Destiny 2 experience, I find that's not the case.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not at all, I'm suggesting that maybe it's a problem, maybe it isn't. Like you, cheating has never impacted me at all. Now! If Destiny actually plans to be an eSport, then I suppose that it's much more important to ensure it isn't something that is lax on the ban hammer. So I guess it's heavily dependent on the context, too.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
My point was precisely that we're not talking about some essential liberty for gamers to be ensured a cheat-free experience, and that the hubbub about unsupported bans seems to be more about a rabid torch-and-pitchfork posturing regarding cheating and how it will destroy the experience for EVERYONE else as a way to support an assertion that really comes off as "hey, it's not ME who was banned for no reason, so no sweat off my back! Fuck 'em."
None of that seems grounded in the reality of the situation, and especially not in a PvE-centered, cooperative shooter.
MOBAs get more leeway with a strict banmmer, in my opinion, because the entire experience is centered around providing a level playing field for a competitive game. Even so, they should take efforts to ensure unsupported bans do not stand. That's just good business etiquette for your customers.