To each their own, but I'm with Kano, as long as slaying is challenging, fun and there's a chance of rare lewt, I'd much rather do that than quest.
Id go with that, as long as it doesnt mean clearing the equivalent of Karnors Castle first room for hours on end (with the next room over taken by another group). That was only challenging if you were in a bad pickup group. There has to be more than just sitting there waiting for the next spawn to pop up.
To each their own, but I'm with Kano, as long as slaying is challenging, fun and there's a chance of rare lewt, I'd much rather do that than quest.
Id go with that, as long as it doesnt mean clearing the equivalent of Karnors Castle first room for hours on end (with the next room over taken by another group). That was only challenging if you were in a bad pickup group. There has to be more than just sitting there waiting for the next spawn to pop up.
I actually had a lot of fun in KC, I didn't do the front room much, did some room down stairs that had shaman boots I think a lot. The threat of massive trains and such always kept you on your toes. I am fine with it being more than that too, but I can't say I didn't have fun with the threat of trains in dungeons and the sight of like 20-50 mobs running around like crazy after people in dungeons.
Well, thinking about it, the main reason I was never ever interested into WoW was really just first impression of these silly graphics. I was pretty fine with Manga style, an aesthetic idealized comic look, like it was in Lineage 2 - but silly ugly western comic style with flashy colors is where I draw the line. For example riddiculously oversized shoulder armor etc that just not what puts me in the mood for playing a game, no matter how good it is otherwise. Give me realistic or give me aesthetic, but dont give me silly. I want to enjoy looking at my character.
After that, of course, soon came the whole attitude of the company behind. Everything was streamlined, mainstreamed, simplified until there was no actual game world anymore, such as the heavy instancing, the big focus on raids, the absurd stats on raided gear etc. The challenge was gone.
Vanguard, in comparison, had quite realistic looking character. Also for example almost no instancing(1) and focused on stuff like realistic viewing distances. Sadly they wont make a return in Pantheon, but they really added to the experience of actually being in a world with other people. And Vanguard kept being challenging until the end - though I fear thats partly that was because not many devs that worked on the game. On the other hand, the classes only became better, more balanced, over time.
I dont oppose mainstreaming per se and I dont oppose cutting fat from a game per se. I just dont want this to be the only focus and a game streamlined until its free of surprise, challenge, and unpredictability, and I want the core experience of a game - to me, thats involves having a challenge, developing an own unique character and "living" in the game world with other players - to remain intact.
Make it as simple as possible, but not even simpler, is what Einstein said. The "not even simpler" part is very important, too.
For example I definitely want a complex character creation and involved leveling. One of the things that amazed me about Vanguard was how I could still come up with new ways to play my character even after playing it for years. That never happened to me in any other game.
(1) The raid dungeon Ancient Port Warehouse had 6 identical instances. One had to explicity choose which copy one wanted to enter. No copy could really handle more than two full raid forces, so players would look for a copy that had none or only one other raid force in them.
The quest in EQ was your every adventure, not some npc sanctioned task.
No.
The devs were correct. There were tons of Quests in EverQuest. The problem is that the game was not set up to alert users to where they were, they didn't give XP, and the rewards were not worth the massive amount of time you had to spend finding and doing them. You basically had to run around and hail every NPC, and some of them didn't offer quests unless you directed specific text at them. The system was just terrible. It's a lot better now than it used to be, though.
There were quests everywhere. They were just largely worthless.
In WoW the quests facilitated the leveling experience. In Classic you still had to grind a bit, but not nearly as much as in EQ, because the quests there largely didn't give XP (I don't think most of the earlier quests gave much - and certainly not enough to care, when they did).
The difference between Quests in WoW Classic and EQ Classic was fairly "fundamental." The quests in WoW served a different, and more foundational, purpose in the leveling and story-telling process.
I actually think this hurt EQ, as it really short-changed the excellent lore and back story the game had. In WoW, you are force-fed this information with the quests, dialogs, and cinematics.. But, because most people skipped the quests in EQ, they tended to remain relatively ignorant of what was going on in the game, why, how things arrived at certain points.
This made WoW a lot more interesting to play from a story-telling standpoint than EQ, which is probably why people continue to sub at expansion and major patch launches to play through the content. Blizzard has made the content interesting, and they've made people take note of it.
The quest in EQ was your every adventure, not some npc sanctioned task.
No.
The devs were correct. There were tons of Quests in EverQuest. The problem is that the game was not set up to alert users to where they were, they didn't give XP, and the rewards were not worth the massive amount of time you had to spend finding and doing them. You basically had to run around and hail every NPC, and some of them didn't offer quests unless you directed specific text at them. The system was just terrible. It's a lot better now than it used to be, though.
There were quests everywhere. They were just largely worthless.
In WoW the quests facilitated the leveling experience. In Classic you still had to grind a bit, but not nearly as much as in EQ, because the quests there largely didn't give XP (I don't think most of the earlier quests gave much - and certainly not enough to care, when they did).
The difference between Quests in WoW Classic and EQ Classic was fairly "fundamental." The quests in WoW served a different, and more foundational, purpose in the leveling and story-telling process.
I actually think this hurt EQ, as it really short-changed the excellent lore and back story the game had. In WoW, you are force-fed this information with the quests, dialogs, and cinematics.. But, because most people skipped the quests in EQ, they tended to remain relatively ignorant of what was going on in the game, why, how things arrived at certain points.
This made WoW a lot more interesting to play from a story-telling standpoint than EQ, which is probably why people continue to sub at expansion and major patch launches to play through the content. Blizzard has made the content interesting, and they've made people take note of it.
Verant/SOE never really did that.
Yes, there were plenty of quests. No, the Quest in EverQuest was not in reference to questing as we know it now.
Also, yes questing was the vehicle for progression in WoW. No, they were not high quality, nor had they anything to do with why the vast majority played the game. If anything, it was the opposite: WoW made us hate something we enjoyed in previous games. As someone who actually read all my quests, they were occasionally humorous, but not spectacular writing. As such, most people did not even bother reading them.
I'd put up the real meat and potatoes storyline quests in the EQ epics and progression quests (vp key, sleepers key) against any of WoW's best.
WoW Classic and what pantheon will be are two completely different beasts. Furthermore WoW classic will be nothing more than a brief nostalgia trip for people. It's just like progression servers on EQ, the first was full and quickly flat lined and each subsequent progression server they launch is less and less populated. Probably for a couple of reasons including EQ progression servers, just like WoW Classic likely will be a far cry from the true original game because of all the changes to the core code and because P99 is a more authentic experience.
But I digress. By the time Pantheon comes out, WoW Classic will be a shell of launch consisting mostly of hardcore WoWers who would be playing private servers if they didn't launch this money grab.
Actually the progression servers are doing good in EQ, each one get more popular and poular as they are released. The earlier ones do lose people but they lose them to the newer ones. Agnaar is doing well right now but we are only in the Velious expansion atm. Most of these servers loose a good bit of peeps after Gates of Discord. Agnarr will never go beyond LDON.
As for WOW classic I dont think it will be a progression server, and unlike EQ it will be seperate from the live servers...meaning that current way the game runs will not dictate the older version. I think WOW Classic will have lots of peeps for a long time.
MMOS are to easy these days and there is a desire for a harder game. In EQ on the progression servers, we do get people that have never played EQ and they love it and stay.
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
Pantheon core players will be playing regardless of what else is out there. Certainly not classic WoW
Classic WoW was still following a trail of stupid yellow "!"
Pantheon players don't want any of that shit on-rails questing
Meh it's all kill, collect, escort or deliver. There's not a whole lot of creative stuff going on in most quests. I'm betting we will be killing 10 rats, etc, in Pantheon just like the many, many kill quests in WoW.
The difference is Pantheon leveling up wont consists of just doing an endless chain of ! to max level.
WoW replaced mob grind for XP with ! grind for XP.
I abhor questing so Id rather grind than interact with dumb NPCs.
Sure there will be the same type of quests but they will be few and far between and NPCs wont have ! above their heads.
DMKano has hit the nail on the head. The people hyped for Pantheon want to go back to the old school gameplay of forming a group, establishing an XP camp, and staying there for a few hours getting currency, crafting mats, items, and making friends.
The "!" system literally destroyed the entire MMO genre. People no longer needed groups and, instead, just followed the glowing trail on the map to the area where the quest mobs were standing just waiting to be one-shot. The only time people EVER communicated was when they were getting ready for a dungeon or raid...then Blizzard nuked that with the cross-server dungeon finder. Now you never had to interact with another player for the entirety of your time in the game. Log on, click a button, get added to a group of randoms, teleported to a dungeon that was so watered down you could defeat it blindfolded, rinse, repeat.
Yes you guys got it dead right,Blizzard made the anti mmo the anti rpg and just because so many played that,it was considered a great game,a standard...the best ...sigh.
I am not looking for any labeled game,i am simply looking for something that represents 3 things,plausible realism within the type of game presented,something that represents a MMO and a RPG.
chasing "!" around all game removes the need to even have npc's,it is not even remotely realistic and does not represent role playing.Now it COULD be possible to still represent a MMO but since every one of these designs are designed to SOLO,they do not represent a MMO either.
I tire of always having to compare to Blizzard but it is Blizzard who gets in everyone's face,they use mass marketing and for some god unknown reason have a huge fanbase,so naturally we will constantly be comparing to Blizzard games.
The easiest way i compare is Blizzard uses SIMPLE gimmicks ,like most of their games are about "pedestals""ranking" "Esports",i believe Pantheon is TRYING to represent a MMO and a RPG and NOTHING of which Blizzard tries to achieve in it's games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
WoW Classic and what pantheon will be are two completely different beasts. Furthermore WoW classic will be nothing more than a brief nostalgia trip for people. It's just like progression servers on EQ, the first was full and quickly flat lined and each subsequent progression server they launch is less and less populated. Probably for a couple of reasons including EQ progression servers, just like WoW Classic likely will be a far cry from the true original game because of all the changes to the core code and because P99 is a more authentic experience.
But I digress. By the time Pantheon comes out, WoW Classic will be a shell of launch consisting mostly of hardcore WoWers who would be playing private servers if they didn't launch this money grab.
Actually the progression servers are doing good in EQ, each one get more popular and poular as they are released. The earlier ones do lose people but they lose them to the newer ones. Agnaar is doing well right now but we are only in the Velious expansion atm. Most of these servers loose a good bit of peeps after Gates of Discord. Agnarr will never go beyond LDON.
As for WOW classic I dont think it will be a progression server, and unlike EQ it will be seperate from the live servers...meaning that current way the game runs will not dictate the older version. I think WOW Classic will have lots of peeps for a long time.
MMOS are to easy these days and there is a desire for a harder game. In EQ on the progression servers, we do get people that have never played EQ and they love it and stay.
I think LDON was when I was really getting tired of instances, I don't think I lasted too much longer after that. I remember running some instance 60+ times and my wife ran it 100+ times trying to get some boots for a SK in our guild... I hated those instances. It was easier to get loot, it was random, but I liked open world dungeons a lot more. I did like when they started to have the named mobs spawn randomly, with multiple place holders (I think the mechanic added to the bosses your 'camp' could see, and it made it harder for say 1 group to monopolize something).
As far as the obvious differences between wow and what we think pantheon will be like the somewhat linear questing and such, wow classic will be a very engaging mmo for a few reasons imo.
-very appealing animations still today and game play, really hate the armor / wep graphics but it fits the world -wow was many players 1st love of an mmo and that alone will be a huge draw even if said player prefers a eq / pantheon type game like myself.
I'm sure there is more good examples but if even a few folks have somewhat likewise game styles or cravings as myself we will jump in and get sucked up in the old game we loved. I for one never got to get into alot of the old content classic offered so that is yet another incentive.
This excitement is coming from a huge eqoa fan and extremely looking forward to playing pantheon but wow classic also is very appealing to me as well, so looking forward to the epic AV battles and grouping even if it is instance based.
I dunno, I always felt that when somebody complaints about a game that it has "bad animations" thats because they dont have anything else to say and just dont like the game. Likewise with "good animations", people just want to praise a game and cant think of anything else.
Nobody plays a game because it has good animations. Nobody avoids one because it has bad ones. Its just not relevant enough.
WoW Classic and what pantheon will be are two completely different beasts. Furthermore WoW classic will be nothing more than a brief nostalgia trip for people. It's just like progression servers on EQ, the first was full and quickly flat lined and each subsequent progression server they launch is less and less populated. Probably for a couple of reasons including EQ progression servers, just like WoW Classic likely will be a far cry from the true original game because of all the changes to the core code and because P99 is a more authentic experience.
But I digress. By the time Pantheon comes out, WoW Classic will be a shell of launch consisting mostly of hardcore WoWers who would be playing private servers if they didn't launch this money grab.
Actually the progression servers are doing good in EQ, each one get more popular and poular as they are released. The earlier ones do lose people but they lose them to the newer ones. Agnaar is doing well right now but we are only in the Velious expansion atm. Most of these servers loose a good bit of peeps after Gates of Discord. Agnarr will never go beyond LDON.
As for WOW classic I dont think it will be a progression server, and unlike EQ it will be seperate from the live servers...meaning that current way the game runs will not dictate the older version. I think WOW Classic will have lots of peeps for a long time.
MMOS are to easy these days and there is a desire for a harder game. In EQ on the progression servers, we do get people that have never played EQ and they love it and stay.
The issue with progression servers is that they are like Seasons in Diablo or Leagues in Path of Exile. They are great when they open, but it's a huge leveling/gear/content race and then the servers tend to die out a bit, until the next one is released. There is really no continuity on those servers. They are drive-by expeditions for people to race through old content over and over again.
This is great from a business perspective, but players who want consistent community and decent gameplay pace simply don't like that.
Progression Servers in games always turn into this, which is why every game that has gone this route has inevitably fallen into the trap where they are basically forced to keep releasing more and more progression servers, and then merge the old ones into other servers due to the server community's lifecycle being so short.
WoW Classic and what pantheon will be are two completely different beasts. Furthermore WoW classic will be nothing more than a brief nostalgia trip for people. It's just like progression servers on EQ, the first was full and quickly flat lined and each subsequent progression server they launch is less and less populated. Probably for a couple of reasons including EQ progression servers, just like WoW Classic likely will be a far cry from the true original game because of all the changes to the core code and because P99 is a more authentic experience.
But I digress. By the time Pantheon comes out, WoW Classic will be a shell of launch consisting mostly of hardcore WoWers who would be playing private servers if they didn't launch this money grab.
Actually the progression servers are doing good in EQ, each one get more popular and poular as they are released. The earlier ones do lose people but they lose them to the newer ones. Agnaar is doing well right now but we are only in the Velious expansion atm. Most of these servers loose a good bit of peeps after Gates of Discord. Agnarr will never go beyond LDON.
As for WOW classic I dont think it will be a progression server, and unlike EQ it will be seperate from the live servers...meaning that current way the game runs will not dictate the older version. I think WOW Classic will have lots of peeps for a long time.
MMOS are to easy these days and there is a desire for a harder game. In EQ on the progression servers, we do get people that have never played EQ and they love it and stay.
I think LDON was when I was really getting tired of instances, I don't think I lasted too much longer after that. I remember running some instance 60+ times and my wife ran it 100+ times trying to get some boots for a SK in our guild... I hated those instances. It was easier to get loot, it was random, but I liked open world dungeons a lot more. I did like when they started to have the named mobs spawn randomly, with multiple place holders (I think the mechanic added to the bosses your 'camp' could see, and it made it harder for say 1 group to monopolize something).
LDoN was fine except by that point, a sort of elitism had already crept into the game. There was a sort of "Meta" to running LDoN instances, as well, and the desert instances were pretty much preferred over everything else. If you needed spells from the Vampire Instances, then this was a bit of a problem as almost no one was running those. People basically farmed all of there stuff immediately, which left half of the LDoN pseudo-abandoned. This meant that most people were relegated to chain-running the desert instances.
On the flip side, LDoN was really useful in that it decreased player power between raiders and casuals. SOE put things like Vex Thal focus effects on LDoN Augments, which allowed casuals access to things like Pet Focus that they otherwise would never have gotten (at least until later expansions).
Some expansions following LDoN (i.e. Legacy of Ykesha), weren't all that great, either, which kind of forced people to utilize LDoN instances even longer/more than they probably anticipated, and people got tired of it (burn out, maybe).
The LDoN instances were more monotonous than the instances introduced in Expansions like Gates of Discord or Omens of War, for example.
I never had an issue with EQ instances. The game still had a lot of open space, and the way MOBs were camped in that game really demanded instancing... No one wants to have to compete with someone who pulls all nighters camping one spot, when you are forbidden to train them out of it because of the "Play Nice Policy."
I think people are forgetting the culture of EverQuest, and why instances were pretty much the only way to go.
It was not like Lineage II, where you wanted a spot and could just train or simply PK someone out of it. You were expected to play nice, be considerate, and not cause any disruption or ruin anyone's fun. If you did, then you could be warned, suspended, or banned pretty much on the spot. Guides and GMs used to appear within minutes of someone putting in a petition. They were very much on top of this.
This created a specific type of culture in that game, which really gave them little room to work with when it came to content design. As the player base got increasingly top heavy, there were increasing amounts of pressure on MOB spawns, so the only way to make room for those players was to instance the content. Without instances, you'd just end up with massive zones that become massive resource hogs when the content isn't current and/or there is barely anyone in them.
Instancing is not only a good solution from a player-diplomacy standpoint, but it's a more efficient use of system resources. Server resources and computing power is not a free commodity.
I dunno, I always felt that when somebody complaints about a game that it has "bad animations" thats because they dont have anything else to say and just dont like the game. Likewise with "good animations", people just want to praise a game and cant think of anything else.
Nobody plays a game because it has good animations. Nobody avoids one because it has bad ones. Its just not relevant enough.
Many people avoid games because of bad animations and graphics. It just looks terrible. There's a reason why most people new to MMORPGs will avoid EQ - because of the graphics and animations being terrible. If SOE were to upgrade EQ's graphics to be comparable to WoW's, then I'd be playing that all day and night, but I cannot stomach them at this point...
Pantheon's environmental graphics look nice, but it's character models (from what I've seen) and animations (ditto) didn't. It looked quite EQ, and that's hard to look at when you play a game for hours on end, several days (if not every day) a week.
If what you said was true, then Pantheon would have 0 reason to exist, because players could simply just play EQ right now. The only reason why people are excited about this game, is because it's basically EverQuest with a graphics overhaul. It really doesn't have any more than that to offer players, from what we've seen. It's purely a nostalgia play. The developers are pretty transparent about that.
There is a certain level of polish people expect in a game, particularly if it requires a subscription and when they've bought better computing hardware to run the games on.
To claim that "Nobody does this or that"... You really are outside of your jurisdiction :-P
In the real world, outside of forums where you an band together with others who agree with you (in defense of some game in development, etc.), many people will reject a game for those every reasons you state NOBODY would consider.
I imagine WoW classic will be out well before Pantheon, and like someone said, the classic servers that have expansions that launch, they lose people as it goes in the direction that you know it will go, and people will leave after the initial novelty wears off too.
I never liked WoW myself, but given the current mmos, it is probably more like something I want to play, but I only played WoW beta, and I don't plan on playing it personally. I will just wait, I am playing Archeage right now, but it is going in a direction I hate, as each patch comes along. IT is just super factions (player nations). I have good gear (8k), but I think it has ruined the game. Anyone that doesn't wish to play in the nations can't do much (You have to play with people that have 3-5k gear scores that don't buff, so you have no chance), the original factions are trivialized imo. They make no pve content for the most part, so it is nation or bust...So I just sit around making gold for probably no reason lol.
I hope they stick to sub game and no p2w shop (think they said no cash shop, but if it will truly be nothing but cosmetic, I can live with that, if pay for convenience is even in, then it may as well be p2w imo, as that's where that usually goes and very badly).
So I am waiting, not sure I want in on alpha/beta stuff, as I don't want to ruin the game, and be playing it for like 6-12 months, and then when it does release it is kind of older and not fresh. Having some input (super minor) in direction, is appealing, as I clearly have things I do not like that make/break a game for me.
how much money did you spend to get 8k gear?
I spent money on subs in the beginning, and some deco items like the hot tub thing, but I broke all the gear from then, and got my gear to around 8k and my wives to 7.5 without paying anything, for the last 1.5-2 years. I actually made a big mistake with 3.5, I bought us both a bunch of new gear/weapons right before it hit (probably 400-500k gold), and if I would of waited till after 3.5, instead of epic buffs and legendary weapons, I could of had legendary buff and a mythic myself, and her probably still her legendary. We both have like 5 accounts, we don't run packs anymore, and we have a ton of land in EU Shatigon (hatora area in Arcum Iris). I have had 200 APEX stocked up before there to pay for the accounts. When they have the limited sales on items (expansion scrolls and land certs), I buy hundreds up with the APEX and get a effective return of about 1300-1400 per APEX back on the NA server. I usually buy about 50-80 APEX worth when they have the sales. It is a lot of work, I am kind of tired of it, and I hate the player nation game it has become, I think it has killed the west/east. I am just making gold again, got probably about 200k in NA again, and over 100 APEX in EU atm, after renewing 3 months of subs a couple weeks ago. I spend probably 30-60 minutes a day in EU doing my land (ran out of mines recently, still got 100ish of the majestic trees still). I am having to shift my money making now, I would regularly have 15-20 of the big mines up, couple trees and then sell the stuff from them, and sell crafted stuff. Packs take up too much time, I do have a full time job already lol (and a 2nd it feels like sometimes). I probably have 15-16 upgraded thatched, alchemy house, 20ish 16s, and 2 candy houses, and a bungalow that I use to make money between me and the wives 10-12 accounts (she has had more sometimes, when people quit in the guild, they let her use the accounts for labor). We do daily quests on the guys for the gold/gilda... I mean nothing super secret, to make the gold.
When I had the 500kish gold and 200 APEX, I was thinking Archeage is crazy, the p2w/cash shop stuff, I mean that's $2000 people spent on those APEX, and $5-6000 worth of gold, if people spent money on APEX to sell. Its mind boggling, I tried to stay away from cash shop games, and it is my first one that is so p2w like this. I will not miss this stuff.
wow, sounds like a 2nd job indeed. How the heck was it practical to have so many houses, is it possible to pop enough labor pots to pay all the taxes on those not to mention farm them? Er wait 10-12 accounts lol... just keeping track of the account names would be too much hassle for me.
Ya i never understood running packs unless you had a guild willing to constantly take boatloads for you it did not seem a worthy use of time.
If what you said was true, then Pantheon would have 0 reason to exist, because players could simply just play EQ right now. The only reason why people are excited about this game, is because it's basically EverQuest with a graphics overhaul. It really doesn't have any more than that to offer players, from what we've seen. It's purely a nostalgia play. The developers are pretty transparent about that.
This is not the case. Nostalgia is a much abused and overused term, especially in the realm of video games. While it plays a part, it is not the primary purpose of the game nor the reason people will be playing it.
The objective is to recreate the gameplay EQ offered, because it's more enjoyable to a lot of people. It has nothing to do with warm fuzzy feelings. It has everything to do with a more cooperative, rewarding, and immersive fantasy experience in what resembles a virtual world more than merely a video game. That is what the developers have communicated they are creating, while the word nostalgia doesn't even appear in their stated tenets or features.
Wow beat eq for one reason - quests. At the time eq was known as neverquest. There is no way pantheon copies that classic mentality of constant camping no questing.
I am good with some quests, but I REALLY hope they do not make a quest hub mmorpg. I really liked Vanguard, but it was a little too quest hubby, but it did have a lot of good exploration also. We will see, but I hope they find maybe a middle ground or something. EQ did have a lot of quests, it wasn't a quest hub, and you actually had to talk to npcs without symbols to find the quests, but they were a little underwhelming in rewards sometimes.
I rarely did quests in Vanguard.
As long as one can become geared without quests or it's not a requirement to do anything.
I can see class related quests or lore related quests for games that are really trying for that angle.
But, for example, in Black Desert I can't just buy a compass. I have to do a "quest". Ridiculous.
I did both in Vanguard. There were plenty of quests( the armour series in that elf town for lvl 30's plus was a lot of fun ). But you could also just form xp groups, sit and pull at the Ant mound, or go wandering in Trengel keep for e.g.
What I am so looking forward to is a game without group lobbies. I understand why this is done, but for me I find it immersion breaking and just leads to groups going hard out to see how fast they can get through there dailies etc( I found this very boring ).
It was actually a lot of fun in some cases getting to the entrance of a dungeon, there could be heroic mobs loitering nearby etc.
One of my fondest memories at the start of Vanguard was out exploring near some forest. My two friends and I saw something large moving in the forest. We moved closer to see what it was. Well we did and the two story high giant saw us at the same time. My friends took off and I did a bit later( was busy thinking this was cool for a few secs ). Well I was to slow and the giant caught up and killed me with one kick. Fun times, I want more memories like this.
With the recent news of blizzard opening classic servers how do ya'll think this will effect numbers player wise if the games are released in somewhat close proximity of each other? There is a huge demand for classic wow obviously, hell I'm even looking forward to reliving it again.
Could this slightly sway VR to adjust there game play somewhat with the new possible competition? I know there to completely different games but classic did offer much more social aspect back in the day.
Thanks for your replies
Isn't Pantheon targeting the Classic MMO audience? If so, then Classic WoW isn't in the same league as Pantheon. The community on this site, and for good reason, shunned WoW when it released in 2004. It completely dumbed down the genre, opened the flood gates for non-MMO gamers to influence the direction of the MMO genre, and here we are now over a decade later and we were right.
So I don't think Pantheon has anything to worry about regarding "classic" WoW servers.
With the recent news of blizzard opening classic servers how do ya'll think this will effect numbers player wise if the games are released in somewhat close proximity of each other? There is a huge demand for classic wow obviously, hell I'm even looking forward to reliving it again.
Could this slightly sway VR to adjust there game play somewhat with the new possible competition? I know there to completely different games but classic did offer much more social aspect back in the day.
Thanks for your replies
Isn't Pantheon targeting the Classic MMO audience? If so, then Classic WoW isn't in the same league as Pantheon. The community on this site, and for good reason, shunned WoW when it released in 2004. It completely dumbed down the genre, opened the flood gates for non-MMO gamers to influence the direction of the MMO genre, and here we are now over a decade later and we were right.
So I don't think Pantheon has anything to worry about regarding "classic" WoW servers.
I think VR has plenty of reason to worry about WoW in any form. Basically, it punked EQ1 (and EQ2) and took their customers. There's plenty to be concerned about if Pantheon only ends up as an 'EQ1 with modern graphics'. If there's nothing more than nostalgia attracting the potential Pantheon customer, what's stopping a WoW re-release from taking more of Brad's customers?
I'm pretty sure that VR doesn't want to put in years and years of work only to be out of business at Launch Day + 1 year.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
With the recent news of blizzard opening classic servers how do ya'll think this will effect numbers player wise if the games are released in somewhat close proximity of each other? There is a huge demand for classic wow obviously, hell I'm even looking forward to reliving it again.
Could this slightly sway VR to adjust there game play somewhat with the new possible competition? I know there to completely different games but classic did offer much more social aspect back in the day.
Thanks for your replies
Isn't Pantheon targeting the Classic MMO audience? If so, then Classic WoW isn't in the same league as Pantheon. The community on this site, and for good reason, shunned WoW when it released in 2004. It completely dumbed down the genre, opened the flood gates for non-MMO gamers to influence the direction of the MMO genre, and here we are now over a decade later and we were right.
So I don't think Pantheon has anything to worry about regarding "classic" WoW servers.
I think VR has plenty of reason to worry about WoW in any form. Basically, it punked EQ1 (and EQ2) and took their customers. There's plenty to be concerned about if Pantheon only ends up as an 'EQ1 with modern graphics'. If there's nothing more than nostalgia attracting the potential Pantheon customer, what's stopping a WoW re-release from taking more of Brad's customers?
I'm pretty sure that VR doesn't want to put in years and years of work only to be out of business at Launch Day + 1 year.
But you have to take it a step further.
As long as they are aiming at the customers who "didn't go to World of Warcraft" then they are golden.
I mean "heck" I have a friend who was an Everquest player. He then went to Everquest 2 and then dropped it like a stone. He wanted a better Everquest not what Everquest 2 was offering.
The people who played Everquest and then went to World of Warcraft were not really "into" the Everquest experience.
As long as they are clear in their advertising as to what Pantheon is about they will gather people who "want" that experience.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Isn't Pantheon targeting the Classic MMO audience? If so, then Classic WoW isn't in the same league as Pantheon. The community on this site, and for good reason, shunned WoW when it released in 2004. It completely dumbed down the genre, opened the flood gates for non-MMO gamers to influence the direction of the MMO genre, and here we are now over a decade later and we were right.
So I don't think Pantheon has anything to worry about regarding "classic" WoW servers.
I don't think most people shunned WoW early on. The purists like myself regretted some aspects of it like the linear nature and weak death penalty, but otherwise, it wasn't that different from EQ circa 2005.
WoW classic will be good for Pantheon if the time is right. It would undoubtedly take potential players if the two launched simultaneously, but should WoW classic come out at least a few months prior, it would increase demand for a more traditional mmo experience. Pantheon would become the most comparable offering.
Comments
I actually had a lot of fun in KC, I didn't do the front room much, did some room down stairs that had shaman boots I think a lot. The threat of massive trains and such always kept you on your toes. I am fine with it being more than that too, but I can't say I didn't have fun with the threat of trains in dungeons and the sight of like 20-50 mobs running around like crazy after people in dungeons.
After that, of course, soon came the whole attitude of the company behind. Everything was streamlined, mainstreamed, simplified until there was no actual game world anymore, such as the heavy instancing, the big focus on raids, the absurd stats on raided gear etc. The challenge was gone.
Vanguard, in comparison, had quite realistic looking character. Also for example almost no instancing(1) and focused on stuff like realistic viewing distances. Sadly they wont make a return in Pantheon, but they really added to the experience of actually being in a world with other people. And Vanguard kept being challenging until the end - though I fear thats partly that was because not many devs that worked on the game. On the other hand, the classes only became better, more balanced, over time.
I dont oppose mainstreaming per se and I dont oppose cutting fat from a game per se. I just dont want this to be the only focus and a game streamlined until its free of surprise, challenge, and unpredictability, and I want the core experience of a game - to me, thats involves having a challenge, developing an own unique character and "living" in the game world with other players - to remain intact.
Make it as simple as possible, but not even simpler, is what Einstein said. The "not even simpler" part is very important, too.
For example I definitely want a complex character creation and involved leveling. One of the things that amazed me about Vanguard was how I could still come up with new ways to play my character even after playing it for years. That never happened to me in any other game.
(1) The raid dungeon Ancient Port Warehouse had 6 identical instances. One had to explicity choose which copy one wanted to enter. No copy could really handle more than two full raid forces, so players would look for a copy that had none or only one other raid force in them.
No.
The devs were correct. There were tons of Quests in EverQuest. The problem is that the game was not set up to alert users to where they were, they didn't give XP, and the rewards were not worth the massive amount of time you had to spend finding and doing them. You basically had to run around and hail every NPC, and some of them didn't offer quests unless you directed specific text at them. The system was just terrible. It's a lot better now than it used to be, though.
There were quests everywhere. They were just largely worthless.
In WoW the quests facilitated the leveling experience. In Classic you still had to grind a bit, but not nearly as much as in EQ, because the quests there largely didn't give XP (I don't think most of the earlier quests gave much - and certainly not enough to care, when they did).
The difference between Quests in WoW Classic and EQ Classic was fairly "fundamental." The quests in WoW served a different, and more foundational, purpose in the leveling and story-telling process.
I actually think this hurt EQ, as it really short-changed the excellent lore and back story the game had. In WoW, you are force-fed this information with the quests, dialogs, and cinematics.. But, because most people skipped the quests in EQ, they tended to remain relatively ignorant of what was going on in the game, why, how things arrived at certain points.
This made WoW a lot more interesting to play from a story-telling standpoint than EQ, which is probably why people continue to sub at expansion and major patch launches to play through the content. Blizzard has made the content interesting, and they've made people take note of it.
Verant/SOE never really did that.
Pantheon
New world, new experiences!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
Also, yes questing was the vehicle for progression in WoW. No, they were not high quality, nor had they anything to do with why the vast majority played the game. If anything, it was the opposite: WoW made us hate something we enjoyed in previous games. As someone who actually read all my quests, they were occasionally humorous, but not spectacular writing. As such, most people did not even bother reading them.
I'd put up the real meat and potatoes storyline quests in the EQ epics and progression quests (vp key, sleepers key) against any of WoW's best.
As for WOW classic I dont think it will be a progression server, and unlike EQ it will be seperate from the live servers...meaning that current way the game runs will not dictate the older version. I think WOW Classic will have lots of peeps for a long time.
MMOS are to easy these days and there is a desire for a harder game. In EQ on the progression servers, we do get people that have never played EQ and they love it and stay.
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
The "!" system literally destroyed the entire MMO genre. People no longer needed groups and, instead, just followed the glowing trail on the map to the area where the quest mobs were standing just waiting to be one-shot. The only time people EVER communicated was when they were getting ready for a dungeon or raid...then Blizzard nuked that with the cross-server dungeon finder. Now you never had to interact with another player for the entirety of your time in the game. Log on, click a button, get added to a group of randoms, teleported to a dungeon that was so watered down you could defeat it blindfolded, rinse, repeat.
I am not looking for any labeled game,i am simply looking for something that represents 3 things,plausible realism within the type of game presented,something that represents a MMO and a RPG.
chasing "!" around all game removes the need to even have npc's,it is not even remotely realistic and does not represent role playing.Now it COULD be possible to still represent a MMO but since every one of these designs are designed to SOLO,they do not represent a MMO either.
I tire of always having to compare to Blizzard but it is Blizzard who gets in everyone's face,they use mass marketing and for some god unknown reason have a huge fanbase,so naturally we will constantly be comparing to Blizzard games.
The easiest way i compare is Blizzard uses SIMPLE gimmicks ,like most of their games are about "pedestals""ranking" "Esports",i believe Pantheon is TRYING to represent a MMO and a RPG and NOTHING of which Blizzard tries to achieve in it's games.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think LDON was when I was really getting tired of instances, I don't think I lasted too much longer after that. I remember running some instance 60+ times and my wife ran it 100+ times trying to get some boots for a SK in our guild... I hated those instances. It was easier to get loot, it was random, but I liked open world dungeons a lot more. I did like when they started to have the named mobs spawn randomly, with multiple place holders (I think the mechanic added to the bosses your 'camp' could see, and it made it harder for say 1 group to monopolize something).
-very appealing animations still today and game play, really hate the armor / wep graphics but it fits the world
-wow was many players 1st love of an mmo and that alone will be a huge draw even if said player prefers a eq / pantheon type game like myself.
I'm sure there is more good examples but if even a few folks have somewhat likewise game styles or cravings as myself we will jump in and get sucked up in the old game we loved. I for one never got to get into alot of the old content classic offered so that is yet another incentive.
This excitement is coming from a huge eqoa fan and extremely looking forward to playing pantheon but wow classic also is very appealing to me as well, so looking forward to the epic AV battles and grouping even if it is instance based.
Nobody plays a game because it has good animations. Nobody avoids one because it has bad ones. Its just not relevant enough.
The issue with progression servers is that they are like Seasons in Diablo or Leagues in Path of Exile. They are great when they open, but it's a huge leveling/gear/content race and then the servers tend to die out a bit, until the next one is released. There is really no continuity on those servers. They are drive-by expeditions for people to race through old content over and over again.
This is great from a business perspective, but players who want consistent community and decent gameplay pace simply don't like that.
Progression Servers in games always turn into this, which is why every game that has gone this route has inevitably fallen into the trap where they are basically forced to keep releasing more and more progression servers, and then merge the old ones into other servers due to the server community's lifecycle being so short.
LDoN was fine except by that point, a sort of elitism had already crept into the game. There was a sort of "Meta" to running LDoN instances, as well, and the desert instances were pretty much preferred over everything else. If you needed spells from the Vampire Instances, then this was a bit of a problem as almost no one was running those. People basically farmed all of there stuff immediately, which left half of the LDoN pseudo-abandoned. This meant that most people were relegated to chain-running the desert instances.
On the flip side, LDoN was really useful in that it decreased player power between raiders and casuals. SOE put things like Vex Thal focus effects on LDoN Augments, which allowed casuals access to things like Pet Focus that they otherwise would never have gotten (at least until later expansions).
Some expansions following LDoN (i.e. Legacy of Ykesha), weren't all that great, either, which kind of forced people to utilize LDoN instances even longer/more than they probably anticipated, and people got tired of it (burn out, maybe).
The LDoN instances were more monotonous than the instances introduced in Expansions like Gates of Discord or Omens of War, for example.
I never had an issue with EQ instances. The game still had a lot of open space, and the way MOBs were camped in that game really demanded instancing... No one wants to have to compete with someone who pulls all nighters camping one spot, when you are forbidden to train them out of it because of the "Play Nice Policy."
I think people are forgetting the culture of EverQuest, and why instances were pretty much the only way to go.
It was not like Lineage II, where you wanted a spot and could just train or simply PK someone out of it. You were expected to play nice, be considerate, and not cause any disruption or ruin anyone's fun. If you did, then you could be warned, suspended, or banned pretty much on the spot. Guides and GMs used to appear within minutes of someone putting in a petition. They were very much on top of this.
This created a specific type of culture in that game, which really gave them little room to work with when it came to content design. As the player base got increasingly top heavy, there were increasing amounts of pressure on MOB spawns, so the only way to make room for those players was to instance the content. Without instances, you'd just end up with massive zones that become massive resource hogs when the content isn't current and/or there is barely anyone in them.
Instancing is not only a good solution from a player-diplomacy standpoint, but it's a more efficient use of system resources. Server resources and computing power is not a free commodity.
Many people avoid games because of bad animations and graphics. It just looks terrible. There's a reason why most people new to MMORPGs will avoid EQ - because of the graphics and animations being terrible. If SOE were to upgrade EQ's graphics to be comparable to WoW's, then I'd be playing that all day and night, but I cannot stomach them at this point...
Pantheon's environmental graphics look nice, but it's character models (from what I've seen) and animations (ditto) didn't. It looked quite EQ, and that's hard to look at when you play a game for hours on end, several days (if not every day) a week.
If what you said was true, then Pantheon would have 0 reason to exist, because players could simply just play EQ right now. The only reason why people are excited about this game, is because it's basically EverQuest with a graphics overhaul. It really doesn't have any more than that to offer players, from what we've seen. It's purely a nostalgia play. The developers are pretty transparent about that.
There is a certain level of polish people expect in a game, particularly if it requires a subscription and when they've bought better computing hardware to run the games on.
To claim that "Nobody does this or that"... You really are outside of your jurisdiction :-P
In the real world, outside of forums where you an band together with others who agree with you (in defense of some game in development, etc.), many people will reject a game for those every reasons you state NOBODY would consider.
Ya i never understood running packs unless you had a guild willing to constantly take boatloads for you it did not seem a worthy use of time.
The objective is to recreate the gameplay EQ offered, because it's more enjoyable to a lot of people. It has nothing to do with warm fuzzy feelings. It has everything to do with a more cooperative, rewarding, and immersive fantasy experience in what resembles a virtual world more than merely a video game. That is what the developers have communicated they are creating, while the word nostalgia doesn't even appear in their stated tenets or features.
But I am not intending to play Pantheon to be nostalgic. I mean to play it because it looks like the kind of game I like to play.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
What I am so looking forward to is a game without group lobbies. I understand why this is done, but for me I find it immersion breaking and just leads to groups going hard out to see how fast they can get through there dailies etc( I found this very boring ).
It was actually a lot of fun in some cases getting to the entrance of a dungeon, there could be heroic mobs loitering nearby etc.
One of my fondest memories at the start of Vanguard was out exploring near some forest. My two friends and I saw something large moving in the forest. We moved closer to see what it was. Well we did and the two story high giant saw us at the same time. My friends took off and I did a bit later( was busy thinking this was cool for a few secs ). Well I was to slow and the giant caught up and killed me with one kick. Fun times, I want more memories like this.
So I don't think Pantheon has anything to worry about regarding "classic" WoW servers.
I'm pretty sure that VR doesn't want to put in years and years of work only to be out of business at Launch Day + 1 year.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
As long as they are aiming at the customers who "didn't go to World of Warcraft" then they are golden.
I mean "heck" I have a friend who was an Everquest player. He then went to Everquest 2 and then dropped it like a stone. He wanted a better Everquest not what Everquest 2 was offering.
The people who played Everquest and then went to World of Warcraft were not really "into" the Everquest experience.
As long as they are clear in their advertising as to what Pantheon is about they will gather people who "want" that experience.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
WoW classic will be good for Pantheon if the time is right. It would undoubtedly take potential players if the two launched simultaneously, but should WoW classic come out at least a few months prior, it would increase demand for a more traditional mmo experience. Pantheon would become the most comparable offering.