Why don't more sandbox/open world MMOs like Ashes of Creation add PVE servers?

TheScavenger

WoW is a themepark...it mostly focuses on PVE...but it has PvP servers. next update/expansion you'll be able to toggle pvp on/off on every server type.

Why does every sandbox/open world MMO however, like ashes of creation, force pvp on everyone therefor driving off a huge massive population of PVErs that are in MMOs? EVE Online is pvp focused, but it was even said that most people stay in high-sec and almost barely of the population goes to nullsec. That works too, but most pvp only sandbox/open world MMOs don't even do that...and none of them are as successful as EVE...coincidence? Don't think so.

WoW didn't change any mechanics for PvP, so nothing needs to change for PVE only. Heck, BDO is a PVP game and the most requested "feature" are PVE servers...but they are all ignored. A lot of PVPers hate the idea of optional PvP because they actually just want to gank people and not do true skill based PvP...but those are carebear PVPers like there are carebear PVErs.

True pvpers that want a challenge and want to fight others who also want to fight them should have no problem with pvping those who want to pvp, and let PVErs have their own space to do their own thing. Yet no sandbox/open world MMO allows that...there is Ryzom, and I think Ryzom is the single only one. SWG too had optional PvP, and the somewhat large group of people did PVE only, but it had PvP for the somewhat large group who wanted to do that too.

So why not give PvP an option like it is in SWG, or VERY safe areas like in EVE? Why force pvp to those who don't want it? Sure EVE PvP can happen anywhere, but its far safer and that works too where danger is everywhere. I only ever got pvped when I left high sec to go to nullsec (which btw, nullsec in EVE is the safest areas in the game funny enough, low-sec is very dangerous, but barely anyone in nullsec when I played)

TheScavenger

to add. PvPers lose nothing if there are PVE servers. Carebear pvpers do lose innocent victims (ganking) and people who only want to PVE. But otherwise nothing else is lost. Then PVErs get their own space to play in, and the two can coincide on their own servers. PvPers get to play with people who love/like PvP, and (carebear) PVErs their own thing.

TheScavenger

Also to add (final)...

There is literally only one PVE sandbox MMO, Ryzom

Dozens of PvP sandbox MMOs.

There are dozens of PvE themepark MMOs

Most of those PvP sucks I admit, but many do give option of PVE servers and are actually rather decent.

So why don't more sandbox games give an OPTION of PvE...like many themeparks give the option of PvP for those who want that? Why can't sandbox MMOs do the same? It can be decent PvE, not the best PVE, but on the other side, pvP in themeparks is decent and not the best.

As someone who vastly prefers sandbox MMOs or open world games like ashes of creation...I literally only have two choices..... Ryzom. SWG Emu.

That is it...

Wingclip

wurm online does what you want and is about as sandbox as they come.

ConstantineMerus

TheScavenger said:

to add. PvPers lose nothing if there are PVE servers. Carebear pvpers do lose innocent victims (ganking) and people who only want to PVE. But otherwise nothing else is lost. Then PVErs get their own space to play in, and the two can coincide on their own servers. PvPers get to play with people who love/like PvP, and (carebear) PVErs their own thing.

In some sense, you are saying removing a huge chunk of the food-chain wouldn't affect predators at all. 

Zergy

I still don't understand why more sandbox MMOs don't use a flagging system similar to SWG's.

shetlandslarsen

Well i agree with the op. I think it is strange.

TheScavenger

ConstantineMerus said:

TheScavenger said:

to add. PvPers lose nothing if there are PVE servers. Carebear pvpers do lose innocent victims (ganking) and people who only want to PVE. But otherwise nothing else is lost. Then PVErs get their own space to play in, and the two can coincide on their own servers. PvPers get to play with people who love/like PvP, and (carebear) PVErs their own thing.

In some sense, you are saying removing a huge chunk of the food-chain wouldn't affect predators at all. 

If you are going by real life terms, there are TONS of consequences for being a predator. Prison time (20+ years for the really bad crimes), and all kinds of consequences to even being forced to be secluded in living with communities with people just like themselves (like pedophiles generally live in small communities where only they are welcome because they are all the same and they aren't welcome anywhere else for good reason).

PvP in mmos have almost NO consequence. Sure losing items I suppose, but most gankers don't care about that because they easily replace what is lost or hide behind alts where people don't know who they are and have dozens of characters...and you don't lose your entirely lively hood and spend tons of time in "prison" for it or any other harsh consequence. In real life, going to prison you lose FAR more than some items that take an hour or less to replace.

(edit: fixed a wording issue. It could have been read the wrong way, but I re-worded it)

TheScavenger

Zergy said:

I still don't understand why more sandbox MMOs don't use a flagging system similar to SWG's.

yeah, that worked really well. I know SWG had a large pvp population, but it was for those who really enjoy pvp in MMOs. Many also did PvE only. And both communities as far as I remember were happy for most part (ignoring NGE and shit)...they both had the choice to pve or pvp OR do both.

Asheron's Call had something kinda similar. It had darktide a pvp only server. it also had "normal" servers and you could swear fealty to baelzharon (I think, its been a long time) and turn into what they called a "red" which was a pvper and it was always on once you swore fealty to the god/demon baelzharon. I think you could do a quest to change back, but it was a harder quest (which makes sense)than going to pvp.

TheScavenger

ConstantineMerus said:

TheScavenger said:

to add. PvPers lose nothing if there are PVE servers. Carebear pvpers do lose innocent victims (ganking) and people who only want to PVE. But otherwise nothing else is lost. Then PVErs get their own space to play in, and the two can coincide on their own servers. PvPers get to play with people who love/like PvP, and (carebear) PVErs their own thing.

In some sense, you are saying removing a huge chunk of the food-chain wouldn't affect predators at all. 

Also to add. PvPers lose nothing from people only playing on PVE servers. 

You know why?

a large amount of PVE only players (or what pvpers call carebears) would never play a pvp forced game

So pvpers still lose nothing

Gdemami

The way EVE world is structured into small zones and being space ship game, gives it unparalleled advantage in aggression mechanics that aren't really transferable to other settings.

imo, it is very difficult find a balance between PVP and PVE using 'conventional' methods.

aliven

Gdemami said:

The way EVE world is structured into small zones and being space ship game, gives it unparalleled advantage in aggression mechanics that aren't really transferable to other settings.

imo, it is very difficult find a balance between PVP and PVE using 'conventional' methods.

Sandbox mmo are about ganking and being a dick, not about equall footing pvp. 

MrMelGibson

My guess is that most of these crowdfunded sandbox pvp mmos might not have enough pve content to satisfy PVEers.  MMOs are about retention, so they probably don't want an empty server a month after launch.  PVP to them is the content.  If that's not happening, there might not be enough game left.  After all, most are not working with the standard funds usually required/used to build a PVE/PVP mmo. This is just my opinion.

Shinobe

MrMelGibson said:

My guess is that most of these crowdfunded sandbox pvp mmos might not have enough pve content to satisfy PVEers.  MMOs are about retention, so they probably don't want an empty server a month after launch.  PVP to them is the content.  If that's not happening, there might not be enough game left.  After all, most are not working with the standard funds usually required/used to build a PVE/PVP mmo. This is just my opinion.

This and it does not just apply to crowdfunding MMOs. I would also love PVE BDO Server and do Node Wars when i want to. But as Mel said, they have to produce a shiat lot of content for PVE which takes too much time. Problem is that PVE ppl dont want hard content anymore, just a small number is doing hardest dungeons/raids. TBH Blizzard did it perfectly with scaling raids.

Phry

Shinobe said:

MrMelGibson said:

My guess is that most of these crowdfunded sandbox pvp mmos might not have enough pve content to satisfy PVEers.  MMOs are about retention, so they probably don't want an empty server a month after launch.  PVP to them is the content.  If that's not happening, there might not be enough game left.  After all, most are not working with the standard funds usually required/used to build a PVE/PVP mmo. This is just my opinion.

This and it does not just apply to crowdfunding MMOs. I would also love PVE BDO Server and do Node Wars when i want to. But as Mel said, they have to produce a shiat lot of content for PVE which takes too much time. Problem is that PVE ppl dont want hard content anymore, just a small number is doing hardest dungeons/raids. TBH Blizzard did it perfectly with scaling raids.

BDO may have PVP but it doesn't penalise PVE'rs, it even imposes penalties on PVP'ers who attack PVE'ers after all, its probably one of the reasons why although there is PVP in the game, its still a mostly PVE game, there is really no need to create a PVE server for BDO, though there is a PVP server now, which as you may have probably guessed is not all that popular.
As for Raids in WoW, only a very small fraction of players actually took part in those, i think the figures were well under 10%, a smaller group than even takes part in WoW's PVP, not to be confused with Dungeon runs at all though, one of the reasons Blizzard introduced LFR was because there was a lot of content that players just never experienced and it was implemented to try and encourage players to actually join in on Raids, jury is still out on whether or not that really worked, so while PVP'ers might not be as numerous as PVE'ers, Raiders are even less so than PVP'ers and represent an extremely small percentage of the PVE playerbase, it might even be that if Raiding was cut from WoW completely that the impact would not be all that noticeable.

NorseGod

TheScavenger said:

WoW is a themepark...it mostly focuses on PVE...but it has PvP servers. next update/expansion you'll be able to toggle pvp on/off on every server type.

Why does every sandbox/open world MMO however, like ashes of creation, force pvp on everyone therefor driving off a huge massive population of PVErs that are in MMOs? EVE Online is pvp focused, but it was even said that most people stay in high-sec and almost barely of the population goes to nullsec. That works too, but most pvp only sandbox/open world MMOs don't even do that...and none of them are as successful as EVE...coincidence? Don't think so.

WoW didn't change any mechanics for PvP, so nothing needs to change for PVE only. Heck, BDO is a PVP game and the most requested "feature" are PVE servers...but they are all ignored. A lot of PVPers hate the idea of optional PvP because they actually just want to gank people and not do true skill based PvP...but those are carebear PVPers like there are carebear PVErs.

True pvpers that want a challenge and want to fight others who also want to fight them should have no problem with pvping those who want to pvp, and let PVErs have their own space to do their own thing. Yet no sandbox/open world MMO allows that...there is Ryzom, and I think Ryzom is the single only one. SWG too had optional PvP, and the somewhat large group of people did PVE only, but it had PvP for the somewhat large group who wanted to do that too.

So why not give PvP an option like it is in SWG, or VERY safe areas like in EVE? Why force pvp to those who don't want it? Sure EVE PvP can happen anywhere, but its far safer and that works too where danger is everywhere. I only ever got pvped when I left high sec to go to nullsec (which btw, nullsec in EVE is the safest areas in the game funny enough, low-sec is very dangerous, but barely anyone in nullsec when I played)

You are entitled to nothing.

Nobody is forcing you to play, so stop using emotional words to gain sympathy.

"True Pvpers" rely on a pre-determined map, with a countdown, know who your are fighting, swap skills and gear around accordingly, and then, usea macro to do the fighting for them.

The rest of us are just carebear open world pvpers... 

Dixi01

Dev's do not create PvE servers because:

1. Most PvP'ers are actually griefers gankes and donators. They are coming to a game not for fair PvP but to enjoy killing defenseless players. Same time they do bring good income via in game shop, since they usually too lazy to play normal PvE part of a game.
If dev's will split those groups of players to different servers, they afraid to loose a lot of PvP gankers. Why they do not consider that for each ganker lost they might gain several PvE players - I dunno.

2. Majority of PvE players usually likes to play the game "normal way" without buying game currency or cool stuff in a shop, since it spoils fun of in game progress. So they pay subscription only, and might buy some cosmetic items, while PvPers like to toss a lot of cash to be "1st and overpowered".

3. PvE servers usually require more content. For PvP dev's can create basic environment, some typical stupid "go fetch or kill 10 rats" quest line, with quests that leads to PvP confrontation soon, and says that the game is ready.

Jakdstripper

Like MrMelGibson said, pvp is a "content self generator". Having to continuously generate pve end game content is a huge money sink. With pvp, people will fight over the same node forever. Very little new content needed. 

k61977

As many others have stated throughout the many post about things just like this it is mostly content related.  PVE games require a massive amount of content to keep people happy, especially the content locust of today.  PVP games tend to have a lot less content or quest related things to do in them as the focus is and should be killing each other. 

It would take people away from the core designed game to run two separate types of code in reality.  Every time you did an update you would have to ensure that it didn't effect the other type of server in a way you didn't want.  

The thing I don't understand myself is why a good portion of gamers/devs think every game has to be for everyone.  If a game is made for PVP let that be the focus of the entire game and give those players the best you can give them.  If a game is made for PVE do that instead.  This trying to find the middle ground and make a game for everyone is what normally kills MMO's today.  The games end up failing on both ends because neither was done the best it could be. 

With that said I am all for games that have flagging systems in place that make sense.  I don't expect a PVP based game though to give me those raids or instanced dungeons though like a PVE based game because to be honest they really don't have a true place in a PVP based game. 

bcbully

The reason is PvP is not just an activity in these games, it a part of the word. From the economy to guilds to player relationships. 

You might as well ask why doesnt earth have an alternate PvE server.

rojoArcueid

Because they think Sandbox only means they get to give an empty game for the players to fill it up.

They excuse themselves from not adding content by saying its a sandbox so the only thing players can do is pvp.

Eff that.

Theocritus

rojoArcueid said:

Because they think Sandbox only means they get to give an empty game for the players to fill it up.

They excuse themselves from not adding content by saying its a sandbox so the only thing players can do is pvp.

Eff that.

I think you nailed it...Most PVP games dont have much content other than "go kill each other"

Kyleran

bcbully said:

The reason is PvP is not just an activity in these games, it a part of the word. From the economy to guilds to player relationships. 

You might as well ask why doesnt earth have an alternate PvP server.

Or an alternate one with no perma-death....

TheScavenger

bcbully said:

The reason is PvP is not just an activity in these games, it a part of the word. From the economy to guilds to player relationships. 

You might as well ask why doesnt earth have an alternate PvP server.

So you want Ashes of Creation to copy earth "PvP" mechanics? You did bring up earth. I'd be down for that

Have a judge and jury and any PvPer found guilty of killing someone gets 20+ years in prison for each count of murder. Then he gets to sit in prison for 20 game years as punishment.

That would mean PvPers would try their best not to get caught, probably not able to enter any city. And if they do, like Kyleran said sorta...it be pretty much perma death cause they'd need to make a new character if they want to play the game again.

I assume that is kinda what you have in mind, since that is how it is like on Earth (at least in the US).

They could live in rogue/bandit/pvper camps and maybe even have an entire bandit city (I imagine it being ramshackles and pretty poor). That could be like "nullsec" areas of EVE Online. Maybe even have pirate towns scattered around. They'd make their own laws, but outside of that, if they were to get caught or raided, that is when they get sentenced to their fate...but only if caught of course.

Even some cities could be unsafe (nullsec) areas, where its heavily criminilized, especially if the local city guards don't take care of the problem in time and let the problem build up.

That would work as a nullsec area, and also be sorta like how it is on Earth. Earth has entire areas even in major cities you'd never want to go. And if an entire city guards and what not don't take care of the crime, over time the city can turn into "nullsec" and be unsafe for most people.

bcbully

TheScavenger said:

bcbully said:

The reason is PvP is not just an activity in these games, it a part of the word. From the economy to guilds to player relationships. 

You might as well ask why doesnt earth have an alternate PvP server.

So you want Ashes of Creation to copy earth "PvP" mechanics? You did bring up earth. I'd be down for that

Have a judge and jury and any PvPer found guilty of killing someone gets 20+ years in prison for each count of murder. Then he gets to sit in prison for 20 game years as punishment.

That would mean PvPers would try their best not to get caught, probably not able to enter any city. And if they do, like Kyleran said sorta...it be pretty much perma death cause they'd need to make a new character if they want to play the game again.

I assume that is kinda what you have in mind, since that is how it is like on Earth (at least in the US).

They could live in rogue/bandit/pvper camps and maybe even have an entire bandit city (I imagine it being ramshackles and pretty poor). That could be like "nullsec" areas of EVE Online. Maybe even have pirate towns scattered around. They'd make their own laws, but outside of that, if they were to get caught or raided, that is when they get sentenced to their fate...but only if caught of course.

Even some cities could be unsafe (nullsec) areas, where its heavily criminilized, especially if the local city guards don't take care of the problem in time and let the problem build up.

That would work as a nullsec area, and also be sorta like how it is on Earth. Earth has entire areas even in major cities you'd never want to go. And if an entire city guards and what not don't take care of the crime, over time the city can turn into "nullsec" and be unsafe for most people.

Judge, jury, jail, prison, sure. Bribes, deals, jail breaks sure. In age of Wushu you could spen as much as 5 hour in jail and till new the next day for prison.

Renoaku

Because Sandbox MMORPG needs to be open to both PVE, and PVP, like Crow Fall / Ashes OF Creation, there is no sense in having full PVE or PVP on a sandbox, Dark Fall for example to date because none of the other MMORPG has been released yet Dark Fall still one of the best MMORPG games that are Sandbox due to open world, PVE, and PVP / Full Loot.

Arche Age & Albion are examples of failures of the Genre massive failures, Arche Age as we know has the big argument of pay 2 win, but they took a PVE game that was full PVE except for certain events and turned it into a game of griefing where you could declare war on the same faction and force PVP during trade runs and such with no countdown warning, and dictatorship of hero made me quit the game they lost over $1000 a year from me alone, and a lot of people started leaving around the time of this.

Ashes OF Creation, and Crow Fall seem to be doing it right though, but obviously, I won't know until launch, I just know the concepts look very good for both games, but developers could always take the wrong path.

https://discordapp.com/invite/ashesofcreation  If any are interested in Ashes OF Creation.