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Hawaii's Sean Quinlan on Loot Boxes - 'It's Best for the Industry to Self-Regulate' - General News

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  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Member UncommonPosts: 447
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

    And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?
    That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

    Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.
    So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

    Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?


    If you don't own those game why are you even in the conversation?

    If it has no impact on you as you claim then why would you care if others wanted them removed from games you don't play.

    I have already shown you are not an island unaffected by this but you choose to ignore it. Well, continue on ignoring and leave the conversation if it doesn't impact you.
    Gdemami
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,150
    For it to constitute as gambling it should be possible to resell the items gained through lootboxes. Otherwise I find it better that the odds for different outcomes through lootboxes should be known to the public.

    I personally detest microtransactions and lootboxes but instead of thinking that govt should regulate it I will just spew acid over companies that do those things. If you buy games made by EA and get hit by these shit mechanics its no-one's fault but your own.


    Distopia
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited December 2017
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

    And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?
    That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

    Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.
    So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

    Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?


    Only, the progress is already quite obvious where it's heading, ignoring that is just sticking your head in the sand.

    Tell me how you plan on deducing whether or not Activision's next title utilizes the algorithm they patented?  Don't worry; I'll wait.  They're already showing signs of moving to predatory algorithms that can't be deduced by a simple redditor with too much time on their hands.  
    Gdemami

    image
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    Shaigh said:
    For it to constitute as gambling it should be possible to resell the items gained through lootboxes. Otherwise I find it better that the odds for different outcomes through lootboxes should be known to the public.

    I personally detest microtransactions and lootboxes but instead of thinking that govt should regulate it I will just spew acid over companies that do those things. If you buy games made by EA and get hit by these shit mechanics its no-one's fault but your own.


    This whole thing could have been avoided.

    Offer the contents of the loot boxes for individual purchase. That way those that want to gamble can and those that don't want to gamble can get what they want.

    But it isn't what they did, they chose to use rngesus to get more money out of customers than they would by direct purchase.
    BruceYeeGdemami
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

    And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?
    That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

    Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.
    So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

    Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?


    If you don't own those game why are you even in the conversation?

    If it has no impact on you as you claim then why would you care if others wanted them removed from games you don't play.

    I have already shown you are not an island unaffected by this but you choose to ignore it. Well, continue on ignoring and leave the conversation if it doesn't impact you.
    I don't care about people wanting them removed, I do not like the idea of calls for regulation without hard proof it's needed, because that's a slippery slope that could go anywhere. 

    Look at it this way, if they determine there's a public hazard in selling digital items ( because it's addictive), how long before someone calls for regulation on gaming habits as a whole? Because games themselves can be highly addictive... one could argue much more addictive than a loot box because the dopamine release is more frequent. 


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AvarixAvarix Member RarePosts: 665
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    Gdemami
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited December 2017
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    ConstantineMerus

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    That's the issue with society in things like this: we wanna wait til a Trainwreck happens to check the tracks.

    When that happens, reactive as everyone is, we go overboard with ham-fisted regulation.  Right now, simple independent oversight into algorithms and practices use relating to loot boxes and other microtransactions would keep the problem from progressing.  Waiting until shit hits the fan and we, say, find out that producers have been using hidden algorithms to prey on customers, and you won't get slim and trim regulation.  It'll be heavy-handed and the issue will become a political point instead of a consumer advocacy one.
    Gdemami

    image
  • AvarixAvarix Member RarePosts: 665
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    So, we should stop thinking about the children, why? Because you're tired of trying to argue against it? It's a valid argument.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

    And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?
    That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

    Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.
    So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

    Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?


    If you don't own those game why are you even in the conversation?

    If it has no impact on you as you claim then why would you care if others wanted them removed from games you don't play.

    I have already shown you are not an island unaffected by this but you choose to ignore it. Well, continue on ignoring and leave the conversation if it doesn't impact you.
    I don't care about people wanting them removed, I do not like the idea of calls for regulation without hard proof it's needed, because that's a slippery slope that could go anywhere. 

    Look at it this way, if they determine there's a public hazard in selling digital items ( because it's addictive), how long before someone calls for regulation on gaming habits as a whole? Because games themselves can be highly addictive... one could argue much more addictive than a loot box because the dopamine release is more frequent. 


    Lots of proof of the costs associated with gambling addiction. All you have to do is research it yourself.

    The issues is not about a vague sentence like "selling digital items (because its addictive)". Its specifically about using gambling aka loot boxes in games to get more money then they would if they offered each item for direct purchase. And specifically its being used in games and targeted at kids.

    Based on the "selling digital items" comment its obvious you don't understand the issue period.


    Gdemami
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    As I said in another topic on this I'd have to see hard evidence of kids being the main partaker in this practice before I'd buy into that. Sure it works as a good sympathy angle to heighten the argument... but outside of that...

    Kids don't have disposable income in most cases, I can't imagine most parents give their kids unsupervised access to spending on the net, especially in games. An isolated case here and there isn't proof of that. And if the parents are okay with it, who is anyone else to step in there?


    [Deleted User]

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    So, we should stop thinking about the children, why? Because you're tired of trying to argue against it? It's a valid argument.
    we should stop thinking about the childern and start being more honest.

    I dont believe for a second anyone making these arguements about 'think about the childern' actually give a damn about that. They want all paid lootboxes gone, peroid, by any means. they dont give a fuck about the kids...lets get real here, MMORPG posters are not a bunch of concern moms,...give me a fucking break
    DistopiaGdemamiConstantineMerusinfomatz

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,150
    Shaigh said:
    For it to constitute as gambling it should be possible to resell the items gained through lootboxes. Otherwise I find it better that the odds for different outcomes through lootboxes should be known to the public.

    I personally detest microtransactions and lootboxes but instead of thinking that govt should regulate it I will just spew acid over companies that do those things. If you buy games made by EA and get hit by these shit mechanics its no-one's fault but your own.


    This whole thing could have been avoided.

    Offer the contents of the loot boxes for individual purchase. That way those that want to gamble can and those that don't want to gamble can get what they want.

    But it isn't what they did, they chose to use rngesus to get more money out of customers than they would by direct purchase.
    That would have been a more sensible approach and the game probably sold a lot worse because of this approach. I hope customers remember how shitty EA were the next time but they never do learn

     EA has their customer first approach, its about grabbing customers wallet more than thinking about customer happiness.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited December 2017
    Shaigh said:
    Shaigh said:
    For it to constitute as gambling it should be possible to resell the items gained through lootboxes. Otherwise I find it better that the odds for different outcomes through lootboxes should be known to the public.

    I personally detest microtransactions and lootboxes but instead of thinking that govt should regulate it I will just spew acid over companies that do those things. If you buy games made by EA and get hit by these shit mechanics its no-one's fault but your own.


    This whole thing could have been avoided.

    Offer the contents of the loot boxes for individual purchase. That way those that want to gamble can and those that don't want to gamble can get what they want.

    But it isn't what they did, they chose to use rngesus to get more money out of customers than they would by direct purchase.
    That would have been a more sensible approach and the game probably sold a lot worse because of this approach. I hope customers remember how shitty EA were the next time but they never do learn

     EA has their customer first approach, its about grabbing customers wallet more than thinking about customer happiness.
    EA has been making shitty games for 10 years.

    They marketing they do however has most people by the balls thinking they are so called AAA and THAT is the heart of the scam

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • AvarixAvarix Member RarePosts: 665
    Distopia said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    As I said in another topic on this I'd have to see hard evidence of kids being the main partaker in this practice before I'd buy into that. Sure it works as a good sympathy angle to heighten the argument... but outside of that...

    Kids don't have disposable income in most cases, I can't imagine most parents give their kids unsupervised access to spending on the net, especially in games. An isolated case here and there isn't proof of that. And if the parents are okay with it, who is anyone else to step in there?


    We have all kinds of laws and regulations protecting children, despite the parents wishes. Why should this be different?
    BruceYeeGdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Torval said:
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

    And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?
    That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

    Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.
    So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

    Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?


    If you don't own those game why are you even in the conversation?

    If it has no impact on you as you claim then why would you care if others wanted them removed from games you don't play.

    I have already shown you are not an island unaffected by this but you choose to ignore it. Well, continue on ignoring and leave the conversation if it doesn't impact you.
    I don't care about people wanting them removed, I do not like the idea of calls for regulation without hard proof it's needed, because that's a slippery slope that could go anywhere. 

    Look at it this way, if they determine there's a public hazard in selling digital items ( because it's addictive), how long before someone calls for regulation on gaming habits as a whole? Because games themselves can be highly addictive... one could argue much more addictive than a loot box because the dopamine release is more frequent. 


    I'm currently subscribed to WoW and will be subscribing to LotRO in mid December for Winter Festival. After that I plan on subbing to ESO.

    The RNG loot pinatas are addictive especially how they're hidden behind a mini clicker game of "fight the mob", just like a slot machine or casino game. I don't want to subscribe but RNG rewards they dangle have addicted me. Now I can't help but subscribe to an MMO. It's been years and I can't stop.

    I need the government to come in and regulate addictive subscription MMOs and other addictive gaming practices like DLC and expansions that keep the progression treadmill going. There are so many  aspects of online gaming that need regulated. :no_mouth: :innocent:
    Paying for access time or additional content to spend time playing through =/= equal paying to skip playing and just be handed the item you would otherwise enjoy receiving in due course of spending time playing the hobby.

    Excuse me while I head to the local grocery store seafood section; I got some deep-sea fishing to do!
    obiiIselin

    image
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:
    Distopia said:

    What business practice isn't predatory? Companies are pushing people to buy anything and everything. 

    And what is the current reality, not the one formed by your opinion, but based on facts and hard evidence?
    That's not accurate; equating, say, selling a product for a discounted price if you buy 3 at a time is not the same as locking all progression behind a loot box and throwing up the Star Cards purchased by the player who just killed you every time you die in Battlefront 2.  Those aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

    Activision's patent, Battlefront 2, Bungie's hidden XP scaling....  Its hard for me to fathom how anyone thinks self-regulation is possible with what we've been witnessing over the last year.  All of those items would've never been changed or identified by the publishers themselves.
    So in other words you have no hard evidence just an opinion on how companies make their money. You see that's not how legislation is done, before you fix a problem you need to evaluate it fully. You need multiple cases all showing the same underlying result,  people spending more money on goods than you think they should, or companies making money off things you don't wanna pay for, aren't evidence of a real problem the government should step in on. 

    Do you own those games? I don't... IF you don't you already self regulated. If you quit them due to that you self regulated. What do you mean self regulation is not possible?


    If you don't own those game why are you even in the conversation?

    If it has no impact on you as you claim then why would you care if others wanted them removed from games you don't play.

    I have already shown you are not an island unaffected by this but you choose to ignore it. Well, continue on ignoring and leave the conversation if it doesn't impact you.
    I don't care about people wanting them removed, I do not like the idea of calls for regulation without hard proof it's needed, because that's a slippery slope that could go anywhere. 

    Look at it this way, if they determine there's a public hazard in selling digital items ( because it's addictive), how long before someone calls for regulation on gaming habits as a whole? Because games themselves can be highly addictive... one could argue much more addictive than a loot box because the dopamine release is more frequent. 


    Lots of proof of the costs associated with gambling addiction. All you have to do is research it yourself.

    The issues is not about a vague sentence like "selling digital items (because its addictive)". Its specifically about using gambling aka loot boxes in games to get more money then they would if they offered each item for direct purchase. And specifically its being used in games and targeted at kids.

    Based on the "selling digital items" comment its obvious you don't understand the issue period.


    I don't really agree that it's like gambling..... I also I have hard time believing it's kids that fall into this issue, most kids don't have disposable income to use on such things.... 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AvarixAvarix Member RarePosts: 665
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    So, we should stop thinking about the children, why? Because you're tired of trying to argue against it? It's a valid argument.
    we should stop thinking about the childern and start being more honest.

    I dont believe for a second anyone making these arguements about 'think about the childern' actually give a damn about that. They want all paid lootboxes gone, peroid, by any means. they dont give a fuck about the kids...lets get real here, MMORPG posters are not a bunch of concern moms,...give me a fucking break
    That's tragic. You can't even imagine the possibility of someone thinking about the impact something has on kids without it having a selfish motivation. I assure you, that's my sole thought with that argument. Loot boxes impact me very little. I don't buy them, and if I have an urge to it's extremely fleeting.
    BruceYeeGdemamichronoss2015
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited December 2017
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    So, we should stop thinking about the children, why? Because you're tired of trying to argue against it? It's a valid argument.
    we should stop thinking about the childern and start being more honest.

    I dont believe for a second anyone making these arguements about 'think about the childern' actually give a damn about that. They want all paid lootboxes gone, peroid, by any means. they dont give a fuck about the kids...lets get real here, MMORPG posters are not a bunch of concern moms,...give me a fucking break
    That's tragic. You can't even imagine the possibility of someone thinking about the impact something has on kids without it having a selfish motivation. I assure you, that's my sole thought with that argument. Loot boxes impact me very little. I don't buy them, and if I have an urge to it's extremely fleeting.
    I absolutlybelieve 'the possibility of someone'

    just not people here on this topic..including you.

    the tell? your choice of evasive phrase 'the...possiblity....of...someone'


    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited December 2017
    Avarix said:

    We have all kinds of laws and regulations protecting children, despite the parents wishes. Why should this be different?
    That's because those areas have been proven to be problematic, as well as unsuitable for children. That said it's unlikely any kind of game would be deemed that, at most they'd be just like every other entertainment product, a recommended age range yet up to the discretion of the parent, not a law against kids partaking at all.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Distopia said:
    Avarix said:

    We have all kinds of laws and regulations protecting children, despite the parents wishes. Why should this be different?
    That's because those areas have been proven to be problematic, as well as unsuitable for children. That said it's unlikely any kind of game would be deemed that, at most they'd be just like every other entertainment product, a recommended age range yet up to the discretion of the parent, not a law against kids partaking at all.
    I dont agree that its been proven.

    Just because its a law written mostly run by political asshats who dont have a fucking clue doesnt mean its been proven.


    WORK has been described as addictive people.....come on.
    Aeander

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • AvarixAvarix Member RarePosts: 665
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    So, we should stop thinking about the children, why? Because you're tired of trying to argue against it? It's a valid argument.
    we should stop thinking about the childern and start being more honest.

    I dont believe for a second anyone making these arguements about 'think about the childern' actually give a damn about that. They want all paid lootboxes gone, peroid, by any means. they dont give a fuck about the kids...lets get real here, MMORPG posters are not a bunch of concern moms,...give me a fucking break
    That's tragic. You can't even imagine the possibility of someone thinking about the impact something has on kids without it having a selfish motivation. I assure you, that's my sole thought with that argument. Loot boxes impact me very little. I don't buy them, and if I have an urge to it's extremely fleeting.
    I absolutlybelieve 'the possibility of someone'

    just not people here on this topic..including you.

    the tell? your choice of evasive phrase 'the...possiblity....of...someone'


    Not sure what to tell you. We clearly see the world in vastly different ways. I don't see us coming to any sort of agreement on the issue. I stand by my view, and I understand that your experiences have you seeing it in a different way.
  • alivenaliven Member UncommonPosts: 346
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Avarix said:
    Distopia said:
    At no point in human history where something has been asked to be self regulated, has it ever happened.  Can you imagine a meeting where the CEO has to tell his employees to stop it, they are making too much money...lol.
    Making too much money isn't a crime or a problem in itself. Our government (in the US) isn't in the habit of stepping in unless there is hard evidence they need to, not in the area of corporate profits, or free enterprise anyway. 

    When the government says self regulate, what they're really saying is take responsibility for your own life decisions. As well as take responsibility for your own problems (if you have a problem own it, and seek help, if a loved one does help them by convincing them to seek help).

     It's highly improbable that stance will change unless real evidence is presented that this is a widespread problem, reddit threads and the like are not hard evidence. It's mostly sensationalizing TBH. 




    You're saying this (bolded part) as though these practices are not targeting a vulnerable population, children. This isn't a matter of simply gaining some self-control. This is a population that, for a majority, is not yet equipped to handle the predatory marketing being thrown at them.


    marketing and gambling is not the same thing though and that is where people are getting confused.

    The physical act of gambling is likely just fine, but the manipulation in advertising on the other hand is a different ball game.

    Having said all that, I really wish people would STOP using the kids as an excuse to make an argument for something they themselves want to impose on everyone. The whole 'think about the childern' meme is old and lame
    So, we should stop thinking about the children, why? Because you're tired of trying to argue against it? It's a valid argument.
    we should stop thinking about the childern and start being more honest.

    I dont believe for a second anyone making these arguements about 'think about the childern' actually give a damn about that. They want all paid lootboxes gone, peroid, by any means. they dont give a fuck about the kids...lets get real here, MMORPG posters are not a bunch of concern moms,...give me a fucking break
    You see i actually give a shit about children and those with unhealthy spending habits because of addiction inducing practices.

    Why?

    Because personally this problem is not mine. I dont buy lootboxes and i detest them. They should never be introduced. Because of that they are designed to prey on people and manipulate them to throw money at the company at the unhealthy ratios. Because they muddled the game progression.

    Sure, children is not the ONLY concern but not everyone is such a tough macho as you on the net. Be a little more self absorbed k? 
    genclaymoreAeander
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