I remember when I pledged $1000 on this game and about 24-72 hours later promptly requested a refund because of the official forum toxicity.
Oh and I still remember one of the developers snarky remark towards non hardcore PvPers. Something along the lines of... "Learn to play" was it? I'll just claim to be paraphrasing.
So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop. This is why I steer clear of PvP MMOs now. They LOVE that P2W microtransaction crap.
You are seriously misinformed and spreading your false information. There is nothing from the cash shop that can give you any advantage over another player. Everything is crafted in game, nothing is PtW. You steer clear of PvP mmos because you like playing against a predictable AI rather than unpredictable humans, period. Humans are even less predictable with emotions, thus forums that have politics and what you call "toxicity" which in reality is just cheap boasting by loud mouths...
I think perhaps you should read slower. I clearly stated "So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop."
I never said the cash shop was P2W, I said it will be. Even if it's all fluff and cosmetic now, I promise you, just like Kakao promised us that BDO wouldn't be P2W, and not even 2 weeks after the game launched, they already started adding P2W items. I don't know a lot of PvP focused games with a cash shop that didn't fall prey to the P2W monetization. Just wait until the game launches and I'm sure it will happen.
BDO is a completely different beast. It is an Asian mmo that had p2w elements in it from the get go in Korea, and the western version was a toning down of that to cater to the audience here (wasn't particularly p2w anyway). Its also much more focused on pve than pvp anyway; it works n a completely different paradigm than what Crowfall is based on.
On the other hand, ESO and GW2 are games that have a cash shop and have not "fallen prey" to p2w monetization. They also have a hell of a lot more pvp in them than BDO. Just wait until launch, I am sure the monetization scheme will look very similar to what it does now.
No. GW1 Is not an MMO. It was never an MMO. No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO. These are opinions / assertions backed by tangible facts from official sources with actual links versus head cannon from third party sources and rhetoric. You're welcome to have the opinion that it is. Just as people are welcome to give an apple the award for best tasting orange. People are welcome to believe that it is an MMO since there were so many people fooled by their "no subscription" (see # 3) marketing tactic to get more noticed in an industry that just saw WoW get released in a still growing online market.
The article you provided is from before the game launched. Only "in the know" beta players like yourself were saying it wasn't an MMO but the vast majority were calling it an MMO after launch. I wonder why NCSoft decided to lean towards MMO after launch and not CORPG in a time when MMO's were insanely popular and CORPG's not so much? Probably because they benefited from being considered an MMO and not an CORPG to the general public.
Here is the Amazon link. See "From The Manufacturer" directly below "Product Description"
Again, this is what it says "Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively
multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based
design that eliminates the tedium of those games" No mention of CORPG.
If what you are saying here "No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO" is true then people who run this site don't know what they are talking about?
See page 5 - "This year, Guild Wars has managed to distinguish itself by releasing not one, but two stand-alone follow-ups to their popular MMORPG"
I'm not saying it isn't a CORPG, I agree 100% that it is now possibly more similar to CORPG than MMO but back then it was in award competitions with DAOC, Asherons Call and another MMO I can no longer remember. What I'm saying is that originally NCSoft cashed in on being an MMO by NOT saying "We aren't an MMO" they just rolled with it to double dip and won awards for it that are cited on the Wikipedia page but have been removed for unknown reasons from the Guild Wars website https://www.guildwars.com/en/events/press/awards/
Also, you still didn't explain why after 10+ years they have not corrected that it isn't an MMO on sites like Wikipedia, Amazon or the dozens of Youtube videos or websites or magazine articles.
I remember when I pledged $1000 on this game and about 24-72 hours later promptly requested a refund because of the official forum toxicity.
Oh and I still remember one of the developers snarky remark towards non hardcore PvPers. Something along the lines of... "Learn to play" was it? I'll just claim to be paraphrasing.
So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop. This is why I steer clear of PvP MMOs now. They LOVE that P2W microtransaction crap.
You are seriously misinformed and spreading your false information. There is nothing from the cash shop that can give you any advantage over another player. Everything is crafted in game, nothing is PtW. You steer clear of PvP mmos because you like playing against a predictable AI rather than unpredictable humans, period. Humans are even less predictable with emotions, thus forums that have politics and what you call "toxicity" which in reality is just cheap boasting by loud mouths...
I think perhaps you should read slower. I clearly stated "So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop."
I never said the cash shop was P2W, I said it will be. Even if it's all fluff and cosmetic now, I promise you, just like Kakao promised us that BDO wouldn't be P2W, and not even 2 weeks after the game launched, they already started adding P2W items. I don't know a lot of PvP focused games with a cash shop that didn't fall prey to the P2W monetization. Just wait until the game launches and I'm sure it will happen.
BDO is a completely different beast. It is an Asian mmo that had p2w elements in it from the get go in Korea, and the western version was a toning down of that to cater to the audience here (wasn't particularly p2w anyway). Its also much more focused on pve than pvp anyway; it works n a completely different paradigm than what Crowfall is based on.
On the other hand, ESO and GW2 are games that have a cash shop and have not "fallen prey" to p2w monetization. They also have a hell of a lot more pvp in them than BDO. Just wait until launch, I am sure the monetization scheme will look very similar to what it does now.
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken? They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
Where did that 6m they got recently come from? was it private investors or crowdfunded again? If it's from private investors who knows what kind of requirements they put on that money or what AC will be required to do to keep those funds so saying P2W will never happen can really only be confrmed by them. Investors usually want to make good returns on their investments is all I'm saying.
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken?
Yes, you are mistaken - and very much so: currently only some 20% of their total comes from pledges.
They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
That money is not free, it came with lots of obligations; furthermore it's almost spent (and IMO very well); based on publicly available information, their yearly expenses should be ~4M, which will likely increase as the team grows.
On "...going to keep charging more to the SAME people...", this nonsense really doesn't deserve any comment. You have lots of negative (and, oh by the way, wrong) prejudices about Crowfall.
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken?
Yes, you are mistaken - and very much so: currently only some 20% of their total comes from pledges.
They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
That money is not free, it came with lots of obligations; furthermore it's almost spent (and IMO very well); based on publicly available information, their yearly expenses should be ~4M, which will likely increase as the team grows.
On "...going to keep charging more to the SAME people...", this nonsense really doesn't deserve any comment. You have lots of negative (and, oh by the way, wrong) prejudices about Crowfall.
Ok, thanks for clearing up the 20% part. Where did the other 80% come from? and do you know where the recent 6m came from?
I remember when I pledged $1000 on this game and about 24-72 hours later promptly requested a refund because of the official forum toxicity.
Oh and I still remember one of the developers snarky remark towards non hardcore PvPers. Something along the lines of... "Learn to play" was it? I'll just claim to be paraphrasing.
So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop. This is why I steer clear of PvP MMOs now. They LOVE that P2W microtransaction crap.
You are seriously misinformed and spreading your false information. There is nothing from the cash shop that can give you any advantage over another player. Everything is crafted in game, nothing is PtW. You steer clear of PvP mmos because you like playing against a predictable AI rather than unpredictable humans, period. Humans are even less predictable with emotions, thus forums that have politics and what you call "toxicity" which in reality is just cheap boasting by loud mouths...
I think perhaps you should read slower. I clearly stated "So how does one "learn to play" in what is now an obvious detrimental approach to what my guess will be is a P2W cash shop."
I never said the cash shop was P2W, I said it will be. Even if it's all fluff and cosmetic now, I promise you, just like Kakao promised us that BDO wouldn't be P2W, and not even 2 weeks after the game launched, they already started adding P2W items. I don't know a lot of PvP focused games with a cash shop that didn't fall prey to the P2W monetization. Just wait until the game launches and I'm sure it will happen.
BDO is a completely different beast. It is an Asian mmo that had p2w elements in it from the get go in Korea, and the western version was a toning down of that to cater to the audience here (wasn't particularly p2w anyway). Its also much more focused on pve than pvp anyway; it works n a completely different paradigm than what Crowfall is based on.
On the other hand, ESO and GW2 are games that have a cash shop and have not "fallen prey" to p2w monetization. They also have a hell of a lot more pvp in them than BDO. Just wait until launch, I am sure the monetization scheme will look very similar to what it does now.
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken? They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
Where did that 6m they got recently come from? was it private investors or crowdfunded again? If it's from private investors who knows what kind of requirements they put on that money or what AC will be required to do to keep those funds so saying P2W will never happen can really only be confrmed by them. Investors usually want to make good returns on their investments is all I'm saying.
I am not sure, but all of the funds from ESO etc came from private investors (the companies backing them) so I am not sure how this is a bad thing. Indeed, it seems that many of the crowdfunded mmos are prone to be built on p2w mechanics even before the game is finished (SC, CoE, etc).
I only get worried when a company spells out some form of blatant p2w system and then tries to play word games to claim that its not p2w (SC, CoE, etc). I don't see that here, and claiming that its "possible" that it could go p2w seems kind of silly since the same could be said for any game.
Btw, my comment above that "I am sure the monetization scheme will look very similar to what it does now" was just tongue in cheek - I was satirising the guy who claimed to be "sure" that the game will change to be p2w on launch. Truth is we can only wait and see, but at least they haven't implemented any p2w elements at this point, or given any indication that they plan to do so.
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken?
Yes, you are mistaken - and very much so: currently only some 20% of their total comes from pledges.
They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
That money is not free, it came with lots of obligations; furthermore it's almost spent (and IMO very well); based on publicly available information, their yearly expenses should be ~4M, which will likely increase as the team grows.
On "...going to keep charging more to the SAME people...", this nonsense really doesn't deserve any comment. You have lots of negative (and, oh by the way, wrong) prejudices about Crowfall.
Ok, thanks for clearing up the 20% part. Where did the other 80% come from? and do you know where the recent 6m came from?
Speaking of extra $6M, it's some form of equity - I am not sure about details:
"After a lot of discussion over the summer, we decided to do a larger
raise to expand our game content, cover all launch expenses and to have
enough funds to drive a respectable marketing campaign at launch.
We
believe this is the right approach, so we pitched it to our investors.
They agreed. We are delighted to announce that on December 1st, we
closed another financing round for an additional $6 million. This money
will be used to fund the completion, launch and marketing of Crowfall."
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken?
Yes, you are mistaken - and very much so: currently only some 20% of their total comes from pledges.
They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
That money is not free, it came with lots of obligations; furthermore it's almost spent (and IMO very well); based on publicly available information, their yearly expenses should be ~4M, which will likely increase as the team grows.
On "...going to keep charging more to the SAME people...", this nonsense really doesn't deserve any comment. You have lots of negative (and, oh by the way, wrong) prejudices about Crowfall.
Ok, thanks for clearing up the 20% part. Where did the other 80% come from? and do you know where the recent 6m came from?
Speaking of extra $6M, it's some form of equity - I am not sure about details:
"After a lot of discussion over the summer, we decided to do a larger
raise to expand our game content, cover all launch expenses and to have
enough funds to drive a respectable marketing campaign at launch.
We
believe this is the right approach, so we pitched it to our investors.
They agreed. We are delighted to announce that on December 1st, we
closed another financing round for an additional $6 million. This money
will be used to fund the completion, launch and marketing of Crowfall."
From the wording there it looks like independent investors. 4mil from backers 22mil'ish from investors. Even if they "only" put in 4mil I still think all those 36k backers should get lifetime VIP and possibly extras but that's just my opinion.
Unfortunately, it's "only" some 20ish total, the extra 6 is already counted in.
They might get even more equity and couple more licences (China/Oceanic/ex-USSR?) but I expect the "pledge" part, which would be game purchase/cash shop/VIP i.e. optional sub, to start rising much more quickly as the launch approaches.
The site was making it so I couldn't write outside of the quotes. So I wrote inside and made it apparent.
The article you provided is from before the game launched. Only "in the know" beta players like yourself were saying it wasn't an MMO but the vast majority were calling it an MMO after launch. I wonder why NCSoft decided to lean towards MMO after launch and not CORPG in a time when MMO's were insanely popular and CORPG's not so much? Probably because they benefited from being considered an MMO and not an CORPG to the general public.
1) Third Party:
Here is the Amazon link. See "From The Manufacturer" directly below "Product Description"
Again, this is what it says "Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively
multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based
design that eliminates the tedium of those games" No mention of CORPG.
(Links were here, snipped for text limit)
2) Third Party:
Here is another link on Amazon for Guild Wars Trilogy that has this under "Product Description"
"All three games allow for free online gaming in a classic MMORPG environment."
3) Third Party:
If what you are saying here "No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO" is true then people who run this site don't know what they are talking about?
See page 5 - "This year, Guild Wars has managed to distinguish itself by releasing not one, but two stand-alone follow-ups to their popular MMORPG"
Relevant Point:
4) I'm not saying it isn't a CORPG, I agree 100% that it is now possibly more similar to CORPG than MMO but back then it was in award competitions with DAOC, Asherons Call and another MMO I can no longer remember. What I'm saying is that originally NCSoft cashed in on being an MMO by NOT saying "We aren't an MMO" they just rolled with it to double dip and won awards for it that are cited on the Wikipedia page but have been removed for unknown reasons from the Guild Wars website https://www.guildwars.com/en/events/press/awards/
Also, you still didn't explain why after 10+ years they have not corrected that it isn't an MMO on sites like Wikipedia, Amazon or the dozens of Youtube videos or websites or magazine articles.
---
Response
Now, I'm going to be as ruthless as my mentors were when I gave abstract garbage as evidence:
Responses to Third Party Sources and the deconstruction thereof:
Concrete Evidence Value: Zero
1) "Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively
multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based
design that eliminates the tedium of those games" No mention of CORPG.
Deconstruction: "Elements of", pertaining to anything that could resemble -- such as combat, world creations, etc. No mention of it being a MMO. Which makes a worthless third party source -- when compared to official sources especially -- even more obscure.
2) Third party source: Concrete Evidence Value: Zero. Retailer. Known for writing their own descriptions and setting their own release dates when not given official guidance ("12/31/xx") for the purpose of selling products.
3) Third Party Source: Concrete Evidence Value: Zero
Writers of a fairly new MMO site at the time. Written as an award for "their opinion" (that is, the opinion of a third party, which is absolute in its worthlessness in this situation) of an award. When you take a lot at what they did, they gave an 8 player Stand Alone game, with Stand Alone Expansions a game of the year award in the genre they were named after. Which immediately should raise red flags in of its own, facts and first party sources notwithstanding.
---
Just because "someone else says" doesn't mean it isn't abstract rhetoric and opinionated pieces of an obscure nature. It just means someone doesn't have an argument when it comes to the topic at hand. Oft trying to then change the entire discussion to fit their meaning. You can say that "people said this" all you want. Facts are fact. You can change the discussion to "what basically boils down to" or perhaps "It was a lie that was believed, and therefore the people thought this" all you want. If we were originally discussing the nature of fact vs. myth, then you would be correct. Though I covered this already in a previous post.
4) We already discussed (in one of my previous posts) that the marketing strategy of saying there was no Subscriptions directly helped the game and that this could have made people incorrectly think it was an MMO and propagate that. Though even modern official sites, pre-launch official sites and launch sites directly go about this. The latter will be disclosed as well, which will also provide evidence for the deconstructed # 1 while stating that they directly prefer -- that is, they do and history has shown they have -- call it a CORPG. This does imply that people may call an apple and orange, if they wish. As the gravy train that WoW was providing was no doubt to tantalizing for the marketing team, as well as the "lack of subscription" for their 8 player game that had the same network developers as Diablo II (as shown in my previous post, with even the evidence of my evidence being concrete proof).
The website from 2004 too long for you? Let's look at what they added on April 20, 2005 (one week before launch):
Guild Wars has some similarities (as deconstructed above) to existing MMORPGs, but it also has
some key differences... (they go onto state similarities and differences)
Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a
CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game)...(Then explain intent / networking)
---
If you stick with the stance that they wanted the marketing exposure and so they never outright denied people who didn't look things up for themselves, then sure. There is a history of third party people calling it an MMO. But in honor of this debate, I will now refer to apples as oranges whenever I talk about them in the forum. The apple industry won't correct me or make a general statement because it's silly -- and Anet stood to profit by just shrugging their shoulders.
Some people believe vs. What is. Secondary source vs. Primary. I wouldn't argue with a Flat Earther theorist simply because I don't know as I only get my information from school and books. But this is pretty cut and dry as far as a debate and concrete evidence is concerned.
Post edited by Yaevindusk on
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
The big difference between ESO, GW2, BDO and Crowfall is Crowfall until their recent 6m extra funding was mostly/almost entirely crowdfunded unless I'm mistaken?
Yes, you are mistaken - and very much so: currently only some 20% of their total comes from pledges.
They have been able to fully create a business from other people's money that can possibly fund their lives for the next decade(if they don't screw it up) but are going to keep charging more to the SAME people that gave them free money.
That money is not free, it came with lots of obligations; furthermore it's almost spent (and IMO very well); based on publicly available information, their yearly expenses should be ~4M, which will likely increase as the team grows.
On "...going to keep charging more to the SAME people...", this nonsense really doesn't deserve any comment. You have lots of negative (and, oh by the way, wrong) prejudices about Crowfall.
Quoting this for the $4,000,000 per year costs. That is with an indie level of amount of employees, without reliable income (since it hasn't released), etc. This is also mostly without the marketing that will happen prior to its launch. They will likely purchase new servers and hardware when finding any problems as tests ramp up, make development easier or get more ideas to put in.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I'm unaware of how their current cash shop works, unless it's the one where you buy plots of land etc.
If they're announcing it now, then it's going to be different than it currently is, and my experience with PvP-centric MMOs is it's going to be a mix of Cosmetics and character enhancing items.
Where can we draw the line with MTs? I don't think the old models of paying for a sub and the expansions can quite cut it anymore in the world of MMORPGs, as I'm pretty sure everything has a cash shop now. They have to incentivise players to purchase whilst trying to keep it fair. Can a game really run off a cash shop filled with cosmetics?
Any opinions on what can be done and what models people should look toward?
I'm unaware of how their current cash shop works, unless it's the one where you buy plots of land etc.
If they're announcing it now, then it's going to be different than it currently is, and my experience with PvP-centric MMOs is it's going to be a mix of Cosmetics and character enhancing items.
Where can we draw the line with MTs? I don't think the old models of paying for a sub and the expansions can quite cut it anymore in the world of MMORPGs, as I'm pretty sure everything has a cash shop now. They have to incentivise players to purchase whilst trying to keep it fair. Can a game really run off a cash shop filled with cosmetics?
Any opinions on what can be done and what models people should look toward?
The financial model for CF is well documented...
B2P client sales... need 400K client sales to break into black... currently have 225k accounts (not sure how many have bought the presale, at least 50k)
Subscriptions (VIP)... expecting 20% of player accounts to finance server maintenance and game upgrades/expansions.
Cash shop... most sales are account bundled packages and part of the B2P client sales above, t-shirts, coffee mugs, cosmetics.
I can fully guarantee to all the posters here that Crowfall will not directly sell combat enhancing items (P2W). We, as ArtCraft investors have been assured of this although the VIP is trade-able and has not yet been pinned down as a possible in game token. (I would be against this as it makes VIP token a currency that can be bought, ACE is very aware of players opinions on pay-to-win issues)
Comments
On the other hand, ESO and GW2 are games that have a cash shop and have not "fallen prey" to p2w monetization. They also have a hell of a lot more pvp in them than BDO. Just wait until launch, I am sure the monetization scheme will look very similar to what it does now.
A lesson in priorities and expectations.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Here is the Amazon link. See "From The Manufacturer" directly below "Product Description"
Again, this is what it says "Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates the tedium of those games" No mention of CORPG.
https://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-Game-Year-PC/dp/B0002BJQDY/ref=pd_cp_63_4?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0002BJQDY&pd_rd_r=TY680J32GC2EHJM5DBXD&pd_rd_w=aXhS0&pd_rd_wg=F6OD0&psc=1&refRID=TY680J32GC2EHJM5DBXD
Here is another link on Amazon for Guild Wars Trilogy that has this under "Product Description"
"All three games allow for free online gaming in a classic MMORPG environment."
https://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-Trilogy-PC/dp/B001DI6O6C/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1513911764&sr=8-6&keywords=guild+wars
If what you are saying here "No one who knew what they were saying ever called it an MMO" is true then people who run this site don't know what they are talking about?
See page 5 - "This year, Guild Wars has managed to distinguish itself by releasing not one, but two stand-alone follow-ups to their popular MMORPG"
https://www.mmorpg.com/awards/editors-choice-awards-1000001078/page/5
I'm not saying it isn't a CORPG, I agree 100% that it is now possibly more similar to CORPG than MMO but back then it was in award competitions with DAOC, Asherons Call and another MMO I can no longer remember. What I'm saying is that originally NCSoft cashed in on being an MMO by NOT saying "We aren't an MMO" they just rolled with it to double dip and won awards for it that are cited on the Wikipedia page but have been removed for unknown reasons from the Guild Wars website https://www.guildwars.com/en/events/press/awards/
Also, you still didn't explain why after 10+ years they have not corrected that it isn't an MMO on sites like Wikipedia, Amazon or the dozens of Youtube videos or websites or magazine articles.
Where did that 6m they got recently come from? was it private investors or crowdfunded again?
If it's from private investors who knows what kind of requirements they put on that money or what AC will be required to do to keep those funds so saying P2W will never happen can really only be confrmed by them. Investors usually want to make good returns on their investments is all I'm saying.
That money is not free, it came with lots of obligations; furthermore it's almost spent (and IMO very well); based on publicly available information, their yearly expenses should be ~4M, which will likely increase as the team grows.
On "...going to keep charging more to the SAME people...", this nonsense really doesn't deserve any comment. You have lots of negative (and, oh by the way, wrong) prejudices about Crowfall.
I only get worried when a company spells out some form of blatant p2w system and then tries to play word games to claim that its not p2w (SC, CoE, etc). I don't see that here, and claiming that its "possible" that it could go p2w seems kind of silly since the same could be said for any game.
Btw, my comment above that "I am sure the monetization scheme will look very similar to what it does now" was just tongue in cheek - I was satirising the guy who claimed to be "sure" that the game will change to be p2w on launch. Truth is we can only wait and see, but at least they haven't implemented any p2w elements at this point, or given any indication that they plan to do so.
Speaking of extra $6M, it's some form of equity - I am not sure about details:
"After a lot of discussion over the summer, we decided to do a larger raise to expand our game content, cover all launch expenses and to have enough funds to drive a respectable marketing campaign at launch.
We believe this is the right approach, so we pitched it to our investors. They agreed. We are delighted to announce that on December 1st, we closed another financing round for an additional $6 million. This money will be used to fund the completion, launch and marketing of Crowfall."
They might get even more equity and couple more licences (China/Oceanic/ex-USSR?) but I expect the "pledge" part, which would be game purchase/cash shop/VIP i.e. optional sub, to start rising much more quickly as the launch approaches.
Quoting this for the $4,000,000 per year costs. That is with an indie level of amount of employees, without reliable income (since it hasn't released), etc. This is also mostly without the marketing that will happen prior to its launch. They will likely purchase new servers and hardware when finding any problems as tests ramp up, make development easier or get more ideas to put in.
If they're announcing it now, then it's going to be different than it currently is, and my experience with PvP-centric MMOs is it's going to be a mix of Cosmetics and character enhancing items.
Where can we draw the line with MTs? I don't think the old models of paying for a sub and the expansions can quite cut it anymore in the world of MMORPGs, as I'm pretty sure everything has a cash shop now. They have to incentivise players to purchase whilst trying to keep it fair. Can a game really run off a cash shop filled with cosmetics?
Any opinions on what can be done and what models people should look toward?
B2P client sales... need 400K client sales to break into black... currently have 225k accounts (not sure how many have bought the presale, at least 50k)
Subscriptions (VIP)... expecting 20% of player accounts to finance server maintenance and game upgrades/expansions.
Cash shop... most sales are account bundled packages and part of the B2P client sales above, t-shirts, coffee mugs, cosmetics.
I can fully guarantee to all the posters here that Crowfall will not directly sell combat enhancing items (P2W). We, as ArtCraft investors have been assured of this although the VIP is trade-able and has not yet been pinned down as a possible in game token. (I would be against this as it makes VIP token a currency that can be bought, ACE is very aware of players opinions on pay-to-win issues)