Poll: Hunger and Thirst Bars in an MMORPG?

4507

This seems to be a rather controversial issue in the MMORPG community - some people say they add to immersion, some people say they're annoying and unnecessary. Personally, I'm of the former group, but I'd like to hear some other thoughts on the matter.

So, hunger and thirst bars in an mmorpg, yes or no?

4507

Unsurprisingly with whatever new system this site uses for polls, the first option can't be voted for on the poll and it doesn't let you edit polls. I can't even delete and re-add a new poll...

So, please use the second option ("No, I like them in survival games but they don't belong in MMORPGs") as a catch-all no vote, and then specify your reasoning in a comment.

Kyleran

Still haven't fixed the polling feature I see.

I wouldn't want them in every MMORPG, but in an oversized survival/MMO title, sure.

MMORPGs are about progression for me, these two ideas focus the gameplay more towards making sure they are always full above all else.

laserit

They already kind of exist in MMORPG's but instead of dying without them you get a perk for using them.

Amaranthar

I voted "other".
I do believe in immersion, but to me there's a more important reason for a Sandbox World.
(And if you're not talking about a Sandbox then forget it and stick with play-by-numbers.)

Food and water can add a lot to game play by using it for faster recovery (regeneration of stamina and magical points/mana). Treat them like potions of recovery.
You can also have a long term effect, where a properly fed character can grow faster in skills and stats based on the diet. This would be something that you only have to do once in a longer while, like once per 5 hours played.
The same can be done for pets, and even hirelings if the game has them.

This would add to the economic game pla...
...what's with all the blank stares?

Loke666

I don't think hunger and thirst should be a huge matter in most MMORPGs unless you go for something where the players constantly fight to survive the enviroment. You could have it matter in specific places, like you needing water if you want to enter a desert zone just like you could have warm clothes to survive the glacier. In a regular MMO you don't want to overuse that but having a couple of zones take takes a bit of gear before entering can make the world feel more real.

It is excellent for healing in a low fantasy or historical MMORPG though. When your French musketeer need to regain HP and stamina after a fight you take a quick bite and a bottle of wine to be ready for combat again. That is rather useless if you have magical healers, constantly ticking health just because you eaten doesn't add anything to the game or make it feel realistic. 

Just use food instead of health potions out of combat.

Octagon7711

I only like them as buffs in any kind if games.

ConstantineMerus

If anyone brings punching the fucking bushes to other genres............... Man, this is how ideas for slasher movies are born. 

SirAgravaine

Hunger and thirst are rulesets in real life than can have an entertaining impact on the ruleset of a game environment. Not having hunger and thirst does not detract from immersion, but having it actually can depending on the UI and implementation. So far the intuitive trend in most games is to satiate the desire for hunger/food in a game world by making it restore a commonly used resource like health, stamina, or mana. 

My personal take is that hunger/food is at it's best when it seamlessly integrates into the game world in a way that doesn't feel forced or like a system meant to slow you down or make the game world more difficult, unless that is the mood the game is trying to convey (survival genre). 

Food as enhancement is actually one of my favorite takes on a food/water system, most recently seen in Zelda: Breath of the Wild, where the diversity, utility, and seamless integration of the food system really sold it to me a as a player.

If I were to implement a food system in an MMORPG it would be in concert with a unique take on health, stamina/energy, and damage using an all-in-one system of character status. The toughest part to get right in a food/water system is timing. Most games increase their time scale from Earth's so that players can experience day/night cycles in a typical play session (1-2 hours), which forces the food/water cycle to be proportionally increased (24 hrs = 1.5 hrs, so 4 hours = 15 minutes, for instance). When you increase the rate of food/water to 15 minutes from 4 hours, you are making the case that food/water is a core system of gameplay and it forces the gameplay in that direction.

I also like the idea of Food/Water system having some sort of quality or rating system, where players and NPCs can have opinions (intrinsic to the system) of the food quality. Another addition that would make food/water systems more enjoyable and immersive is NPC preferences, that could encourage interesting dialogue. (i.e. in a Naruto MMORPG: bring Naruto a bowl of Ramen and he might give you a special mission).

Ultimately, food is at the heart of cultures and humanity for a reason, it is essential for life and it speaks to our individuality and environment. For that reason, I think food/water should always play some role in an MMORPG, but whether or not a game needs dedicated "meters" depends entirely on the mood and method of storytelling that the MMORPG is attempting to capture.

Loke666

SirAgravaine said:

Hunger and thirst are rulesets in real life than can have an entertaining impact on the ruleset of a game environment. Not having hunger and thirst does not detract from immersion, but having it actually can depending on the UI and implementation. So far the intuitive trend in most games is to satiate the desire for hunger/food in a game world by making it restore a commonly used resource like health, stamina, or mana. 

My personal take is that hunger/food is at it's best when it seamlessly integrates into the game world in a way that doesn't feel forced or like a system meant to slow you down or make the game world more difficult, unless that is the mood the game is trying to convey (survival genre). 

Food as enhancement is actually one of my favorite takes on a food/water system, most recently seen in Zelda: Breath of the Wild, where the diversity, utility, and seamless integration of the food system really sold it to me a as a player.

If I were to implement a food system in an MMORPG it would be in concert with a unique take on health, stamina/energy, and damage using an all-in-one system of character status. The toughest part to get right in a food/water system is timing. Most games increase their time scale from Earth's so that players can experience day/night cycles in a typical play session (1-2 hours), which forces the food/water cycle to be proportionally increased (24 hrs = 1.5 hrs, so 4 hours = 15 minutes, for instance). When you increase the rate of food/water to 15 minutes from 4 hours, you are making the case that food/water is a core system of gameplay and it forces the gameplay in that direction.

I also like the idea of Food/Water system having some sort of quality or rating system, where players and NPCs can have opinions (intrinsic to the system) of the food quality. Another addition that would make food/water systems more enjoyable and immersive is NPC preferences, that could encourage interesting dialogue. (i.e. in a Naruto MMORPG: bring Naruto a bowl of Ramen and he might give you a special mission).

Ultimately, food is at the heart of cultures and humanity for a reason, it is essential for life and it speaks to our individuality and environment. For that reason, I think food/water should always play some role in an MMORPG, but whether or not a game needs dedicated "meters" depends entirely on the mood and method of storytelling that the MMORPG is attempting to capture.

I dunno, while you could add all body functions to a MMO I don't think that is wise. 

The old health/mana or similar buffs doesn't actually make the game more fun. If you really want people to keep looking for food (because let's face it, realism and carrying weeks of food on you don't go hand in hand, it spoils and weights a lot) that certainly could be interesting.

In that case I think I would go for a hunger meteer that debuffs you when you are hungry instead and a spoil system that makes you need to find that food when you need to eat. Eating advanced crafted food is fine in town but in the wilderness you should find fresh stuff to eat (and maybe cook over a campfire).

Also, having a 2 hour daycycle is annoying for any semi realistic food system. Since day and night doesn't actually have any impact on modern games (I think early EQ2 was the last that really did that) you can use a 5 hour system instead, that will also shift so that if you only log in a specific time you will still see both day and night after a week of playing.

That does work best in a more survival based MMO then Wow or similar games though, you would need to find something to eat every 90 minutes or so then. But having people just stack huge piles of it in the inventory turns the system into a meaningless moneysink.

As I said above, it works best for healing in none magic games but at least this could make an interesting system if you want more realism. Just how long time at average it should take to find food and water in another matter, in a light MMO it should probably be easy except in a desert or at sea and maybe take a minute while in a survival MMO it should be harder and take at least 5 minutes of work.

Amaranthar

Loke666 said:

SirAgravaine said:

Hunger and thirst are rulesets in real life than can have an entertaining impact on the ruleset of a game environment. Not having hunger and thirst does not detract from immersion, but having it actually can depending on the UI and implementation. So far the intuitive trend in most games is to satiate the desire for hunger/food in a game world by making it restore a commonly used resource like health, stamina, or mana. 

My personal take is that hunger/food is at it's best when it seamlessly integrates into the game world in a way that doesn't feel forced or like a system meant to slow you down or make the game world more difficult, unless that is the mood the game is trying to convey (survival genre). 

Food as enhancement is actually one of my favorite takes on a food/water system, most recently seen in Zelda: Breath of the Wild, where the diversity, utility, and seamless integration of the food system really sold it to me a as a player.

If I were to implement a food system in an MMORPG it would be in concert with a unique take on health, stamina/energy, and damage using an all-in-one system of character status. The toughest part to get right in a food/water system is timing. Most games increase their time scale from Earth's so that players can experience day/night cycles in a typical play session (1-2 hours), which forces the food/water cycle to be proportionally increased (24 hrs = 1.5 hrs, so 4 hours = 15 minutes, for instance). When you increase the rate of food/water to 15 minutes from 4 hours, you are making the case that food/water is a core system of gameplay and it forces the gameplay in that direction.

I also like the idea of Food/Water system having some sort of quality or rating system, where players and NPCs can have opinions (intrinsic to the system) of the food quality. Another addition that would make food/water systems more enjoyable and immersive is NPC preferences, that could encourage interesting dialogue. (i.e. in a Naruto MMORPG: bring Naruto a bowl of Ramen and he might give you a special mission).

Ultimately, food is at the heart of cultures and humanity for a reason, it is essential for life and it speaks to our individuality and environment. For that reason, I think food/water should always play some role in an MMORPG, but whether or not a game needs dedicated "meters" depends entirely on the mood and method of storytelling that the MMORPG is attempting to capture.

I dunno, while you could add all body functions to a MMO I don't think that is wise. 

The old health/mana or similar buffs doesn't actually make the game more fun. If you really want people to keep looking for food (because let's face it, realism and carrying weeks of food on you don't go hand in hand, it spoils and weights a lot) that certainly could be interesting.

In that case I think I would go for a hunger meteer that debuffs you when you are hungry instead and a spoil system that makes you need to find that food when you need to eat. Eating advanced crafted food is fine in town but in the wilderness you should find fresh stuff to eat (and maybe cook over a campfire).

Also, having a 2 hour daycycle is annoying for any semi realistic food system. Since day and night doesn't actually have any impact on modern games (I think early EQ2 was the last that really did that) you can use a 5 hour system instead, that will also shift so that if you only log in a specific time you will still see both day and night after a week of playing.

That does work best in a more survival based MMO then Wow or similar games though, you would need to find something to eat every 90 minutes or so then. But having people just stack huge piles of it in the inventory turns the system into a meaningless moneysink.

As I said above, it works best for healing in none magic games but at least this could make an interesting system if you want more realism. Just how long time at average it should take to find food and water in another matter, in a light MMO it should probably be easy except in a desert or at sea and maybe take a minute while in a survival MMO it should be harder and take at least 5 minutes of work.

The idea of packing stacks of food seems to take away the immersion, as you alluded to. That's why I think fresh food with a spoil timer on it would be for the best benefit, plus preserved foods (jerky and dried fruits, etc.) for those long trips into a desert region with a lesser benefit. That makes exploration into more dangerous and harsh places a bit more "real".
The Cantina concept from Star Wars can be thought of here, too, but changed for food and drink. Where fresh foods (with herbs and spices), plus a well rounded meal, can be a longer lasting "best benefit" than campfire cooked meals of just fresh meat and some wild berries. Equal benefit for a longer time frame.

So, if a character is being played for 5 hours a day, tavern food once every other day and fresh cooked campfire food on the other day, that should be good enough in my mind.

The question becomes, how easy is it to obtain fresh food, and how much would it cost?
So why doesn't a community with farm raised meat and grain offer an advantage here? In availability and in cost? This can be a market for game play.
While in the wilds, if it's not an easy task, then hunting becomes a valued skill. I'd love to see player skill included, as well as knowledge according to the game's wilderness design.

This gives it a sense of realism and need.
BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I'd want to have it be less intrusive than a constant need to perform.
And that's why I'd prefer that food increases >recovery< of HP's, Stamina, and Mana, for hours rather than act as an instant healing agent.
But then that leads to potions and their availability. If they are not as easy to come by, nor as cheap, then players would naturally want to save them for combat. That makes food important, but not intrusive.

SirAgravaine

@Amaranthar  @Loke666

I like the idea of food spoiling, as it prevents stockpiling and forces players to seek resources or services (from crafting) to eat, and allows for those cooking the food to use preservation techniques: salts, drying, etc. which adds that layer of tactical risk/reward that so many great games incorporate. 

The system you two are describing is pretty similar to how I imagined a properly implemented MMORPG hunger/hydration system: rather than punishing players using timers, it encourages players via status effect enhancements (sort of like buffs). The major difference is in how health and energy is represented. This status effect system I imagine would not use a standard numerical "bar" approach, but instead use a status system for player information. This system would track the state of various parts of the player character's body and condition, but would not use the standard "meter system" found in every(?) MMORPG today. Personally I prefer systems that provide player information through animation or other more immersive means, when it is possible to implement...

Speaking of the Cantina concept for SWG, I love the idea of incorporating the status effects as a result of player interaction and player entertainment (music). These could affect different character states through status effects in the same manner as food/water, which could in turn bolster different core attributes (that in turn enhance skills) that food/water.

What I like most about a status based system is how much it lends itself to group dynamics and social interaction. It also plays a role in NPC and PVE interaction. For instance another status that could be implemented is a sort of group "teamwork" status that slightly bolsters certain attributes or abilities. These same status effects could apply to NPCs or PVE mobs, making it tougher for certain solo encounters. 

As an aside: MMORPGs need to start flattening their math and straying from vertical progression models. Almost every MMORPG is going to have some sort of 'number creep' over time, whether it is the result of balancing or added content, however, I feel that the more horizontal that they keep the math the better it will be for balancing and player enjoyment. Squishing progression down and keeping it more horizontal will allow for even difficulty level of mobs at different stages of "experience".

Sort of started rambling there...but alas, yes I like the systems you both describe and they sound very similar to my own vision.

Amaranthar

SirAgravaine said:

@Amaranthar  @Loke666

I like the idea of food spoiling, as it prevents stockpiling and forces players to seek resources or services (from crafting) to eat, and allows for those cooking the food to use preservation techniques: salts, drying, etc. which adds that layer of tactical risk/reward that so many great games incorporate. 

The system you two are describing is pretty similar to how I imagined a properly implemented MMORPG hunger/hydration system: rather than punishing players using timers, it encourages players via status effect enhancements (sort of like buffs). The major difference is in how health and energy is represented. This status effect system I imagine would not use a standard numerical "bar" approach, but instead use a status system for player information. This system would track the state of various parts of the player character's body and condition, but would not use the standard "meter system" found in every(?) MMORPG today. Personally I prefer systems that provide player information through animation or other more immersive means, when it is possible to implement...

Speaking of the Cantina concept for SWG, I love the idea of incorporating the status effects as a result of player interaction and player entertainment (music). These could affect different character states through status effects in the same manner as food/water, which could in turn bolster different core attributes (that in turn enhance skills) that food/water.

What I like most about a status based system is how much it lends itself to group dynamics and social interaction. It also plays a role in NPC and PVE interaction. For instance another status that could be implemented is a sort of group "teamwork" status that slightly bolsters certain attributes or abilities. These same status effects could apply to NPCs or PVE mobs, making it tougher for certain solo encounters. 

As an aside: MMORPGs need to start flattening their math and straying from vertical progression models. Almost every MMORPG is going to have some sort of 'number creep' over time, whether it is the result of balancing or added content, however, I feel that the more horizontal that they keep the math the better it will be for balancing and player enjoyment. Squishing progression down and keeping it more horizontal will allow for even difficulty level of mobs at different stages of "experience".

Sort of started rambling there...but alas, yes I like the systems you both describe and they sound very similar to my own vision.

I like your thinking.
I didn't quite understand what you meant by "status", and now I think I see what you meant.
But doesn't there still need to be a meter of some sort? Or do you mean in how it's represented to the player? "Well Fed" as opposed to a bar that reads "full"?

acidblood

It really depends on the tone of the game (i.e. action vs. realism)... but personally I prefer when food / drink is simply an extended buff, with a time apporiate to the pace of the game.

Phry

Food and Drink as a buff feature is fine, particularly if its also tied into player crafted items.
But, and its a huge 'but' at that, making it a mandatory feature that can debuff or even kill your character, no and not just a no but a 'hell no' its a PITA feature of survival games that barely work even there, its a feature that can easily be left out of games without any real detriment to the game itself, most have so many time sinks in them that one less just means that players get to play more of the game itself without being forced to engage in meaningless berry picking exercises etc.

Scot

My only concern would be how long before food and drink were only available as a loot box from the cash shop.

Kyleran

Scot said:

My only concern would be how long before food and drink were only available as a loot box from the cash shop.

Doubtful they would only be available in cash shop,  but I can see special versions which impart superior benefits such as no spoilage, longer lasting buffs or zero carry weight being sold there. 

delete5230

Sell them in the cash shop for $10 a pop !  

But have a sale now and then, so developers can seem like the good guys

Akulas

Sounds good in theory but ends up being annoying. Maybe could be used for out of combat regen buffs?

cameltosis

A big fat "NO" from me. 

Hunger and thirst in games is pointless. You start off normal and then deteriorate, eating and drinking just bring you back to normal. You're entire motivation is to prevent a negative consequence, there is nothing positive about it at all. 

Beyond that, the typical game loops around eating and drinking are usually boring as fuck. Harvest, craft and eat, most of which is just looking at progress bars. It's not fun. All it does is add an additional chore to a game with no positive outcome. 



I don't mind food that adds buffs, that's fine, but a simple hunger / thirst mechanic? no thanks

iixviiiix

If only the food taste good or it gameplay relate . So the sake of "realism" ? how about no ?

Sovrath

cameltosis said:

A big fat "NO" from me. 

Hunger and thirst in games is pointless. You start off normal and then deteriorate, eating and drinking just bring you back to normal. You're entire motivation is to prevent a negative consequence, there is nothing positive about it at all. 

Beyond that, the typical game loops around eating and drinking are usually boring as fuck. Harvest, craft and eat, most of which is just looking at progress bars. It's not fun. All it does is add an additional chore to a game with no positive outcome. 



I don't mind food that adds buffs, that's fine, but a simple hunger / thirst mechanic? no thanks

So why not just add positives as well? And what’s wrong with normal? If normal means tip top fighting shape then that’s a good thing 

GeezerGamer

/ready check
/no
"Sorry , character has to take a shit"

Flyte27

I find food and drink are only useful in games where your health and magic regenerate extremely slowly.  Usually, this would account for about 0% of the games today.  in Everquest, if you didn't drink or eat you wouldn't regenerate any health or magic at all.  Since health and magic regenerated so slowly any buff to make it faster was welcome.

Theocritus

One of my least favorite things to do in a MMO...Especially if we have to go out of our way to grow food.....I would vote against food/drink in a MMO 100 times out of 100.

Eldurian

So I love food in-games. It's part of the in-game economy and farmers/cooks are based around it.

"I hate growing my own food, cooking my own food, etc." Then don't. How many of you grow your own food IRL? Half of you probably don't even cook it beyond tossing it in a microwave or toaster over. Same idea in-game. If you hate a particular aspect of the economy then you give someone else gold to do it for you.

The issue I have is most food in-game is tedious.

A. You have short duration buffs you constantly have to remember to refresh.
B. You have some food bar that you forget about and all of sudden your character is dying or suffering greatly. You don't just forget to eat to the point you end up starving IRL. 

That is why I would implement food in the following manner:


Food isn't just a bar, it's a slot. You put food and drink into the food and drink slot. Doing so means your character will automatically start eating and drinking whenever they are hungry or thirsty. Food quality still matters, you still have to restock on food occasionally. But we are talking more every 6 hours and less every 30 minutes.

If you do forget about food, your character will start reminding you of it fairly loudly and obviously about 20 minutes before things get dire. Rumbling stomach at first, moans as they get more hungry etc. This is if they eat all the food in their food slot and their hunger levels dip below about 60%.