Personally, I didn't care about the loot box. I'm not playing Rift at the moment but it's one of my most played MMOs overall. I have tons of premium mounts that I earned through gameplay alone and that box was completely cosmetic and completely optional. I wouldn't have even given it a second glance. I'd prefer no loot boxes at all but, if we have to have them, this type of box is the lesser of two evils since it's not tied to progression in any way.
Ridiculous price, but easily ignored.
I just found that Reddit post funny, as someone who has worked in marketing. There may well be a genuine apology in there... or they may have done the whole thing on purpose for exposure. We'll never know. Either way, that Reddit post is filled with propaganda techniques and was very finely drafted to promote the game.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I don't know why people have lash out so vilely. It's seriously messed up that some of you post such hate.
Of course I see things differently. I see a CEO who's team seemingly made a bad decision step up to the place, take the accountability on himself, and apologize. What in the hell else can someone do?
I know there are some snarky self-righteous condescending comments just waiting spew out of those keyboards how it shouldn't have even been a thing in the first place, but how can you honestly say that given the environment of the industry. Hell, some people can't even be honest and consistent with themselves and others between threads.
Why would the Rift team suspect that a loot crate with a guaranteed top end payout would garner so much backlash just because it's $100. ESO sells a house that costs $125. Crowfall just announced it's cash shop will have an item cost cap of $200. Ashes just launched new buy in packages that a lot juicier than their analogous Kickstarter packages, for just about 25% more. Wait, that's not all, Pantheon just advertised their $1000 pre-alpha buy in. And Trino gets a hit for a $100 horse? People call Scott all sorts of horrible names for that?
Sorry, but some people should be ashamed, not only for their vitriol, but mostly for the hypocrisy. The vitriol is enough though. It's unwarranted to treat anyone like that.
I think part of the reason is that these mounts are sold separately in the shop for like $10 bucks a pop? I may be wrong there, though, somebody else needs to confirm.
I think they worked out at more than $10 each, but definitely less than $20. I'm not sure because I'm in the UK and see the prices in £££s. Most, possibly all, of those mounts were previously available for individual purchase. You could also earn them as a free player from buying REX from others players since they were previously sold for Credits, which you couldn't do with the loot box. So, the CEO's comments about providing a way to trade them is kind of moot, since they were obtainable with in game currency anyway as long as some players were selling REX, which they always are.
I heard they removed the option to buy them individually when they introduced the loot box but I can't 100% confirm that myself.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I don't know why people have lash out so vilely. It's seriously messed up that some of you post such hate.
Of course I see things differently. I see a CEO who's team seemingly made a bad decision step up to the place, take the accountability on himself, and apologize. What in the hell else can someone do?
I know there are some snarky self-righteous condescending comments just waiting spew out of those keyboards how it shouldn't have even been a thing in the first place, but how can you honestly say that given the environment of the industry. Hell, some people can't even be honest and consistent with themselves and others between threads.
Why would the Rift team suspect that a loot crate with a guaranteed top end payout would garner so much backlash just because it's $100. ESO sells a house that costs $125. Crowfall just announced it's cash shop will have an item cost cap of $200. Ashes just launched new buy in packages that a lot juicier than their analogous Kickstarter packages, for just about 25% more. Wait, that's not all, Pantheon just advertised their $1000 pre-alpha buy in. And Trino gets a hit for a $100 horse? People call Scott all sorts of horrible names for that?
Sorry, but some people should be ashamed, not only for their vitriol, but mostly for the hypocrisy. The vitriol is enough though. It's unwarranted to treat anyone like that.
I think part of the reason is that these mounts are sold separately in the shop for like $10 bucks a pop? I may be wrong there, though, somebody else needs to confirm.
To your larger point: the vitriol stems from the repeated, back to back attempts to utilize MTs in a way that consumers have already rejected in a big way. Any publisher attempting to find new ways to nickel and dime a customer in the current industry consumer climate is super tone deaf, or just DGAF.
Has anyone ever asked why this is occurring on a systemic level? Maybe it would be beneficial to understand what is happening on such a broad scale and how could that all be connected?
And hate for others being justified is always wrong, no matter what. Hating others is wrong. Nothing happened here that warranted what people said to and about Hartsman. These are people here. Nothing bad happened. It was a stupid annoying thing and that's about it.
Adding them wasn't the reason I haven't been playing. Removing them isn't going to make me play the game again.
I wasn't trying to qualify the degree of hate or not, my post wasn't clear enough. Just commenting on why there seems to be a snowball effect occurring on these things.
It would seem pretty apparent to me that the publishers might wanna pump the brakes a minute to at least try and let the last event die down completely before they test out a new one.
...the best way to handle it is to get on reddit and tell all of these game developers no we don't want that, and to make it a letter that addresses all of these developers in the start of the letter.
It will send the message industry wide to tell them stop trying to gamble with our money. It's dishonest.
The only message that gets through is the bottom line. Not buying matters. Reddit does not -- except to inform people. If that information translates into not buying, then you have told the developers in a language they can understand and care about.
This incident isn't isolated to Trion, in fact I'd say it's true of every major MMO published right now to a greater or lesser extent. If it is systemic then what does that mean?
Is the whale money pool drying up? As F2P games age and the churn goes down is it affecting the revenue curve more dramatically than calculated? Is it that they just want easy money?
As much as I get that every other studio and publisher are doing this, for whatever reasons, it's still ridiculous. I paid $90 for Destiny 2 with a season pass. It's almost a full on MMO and I don't have to pay another dime if I don't want to. All of my other single player and limited multiplayer games are cheaper than that. How the hell can ESO justify a $125 house that doesn't do anything? Or Trion a mount skin? It's a skin! Or a $1000 alpha for a niche EQ reboot? Those are seriously WTF moments.
Here's where I think publishers and studios are disconnected. They don't get that blatantly pandering to those with a lot of disposable income (termed "the whales" by us commoners) is that it makes everyone else feel like their financial contribution doesn't matter. It sends an active message to their customers that they're not valued and in Western culture that's the ultimate sin.
So it doesn't matter if you bought Battle Front 2, the message is that you're only valued to EA if spend more. That's true in all the examples above and in every single MMO I've played (except Planeshift it's free).
On the other end of the spectrum we have gamers that don't want to pay their share for the game and feel entitled to have whales subsidize them as though they were contributing equally. That puts a great burden on patrons and spenders who aren't whales and drives the cost up.
I get why people are upset. I don't think lashing out at individuals is appropriate. But this situation in the industry right now is a recipe for disaster. Of course I expect no party to take the sane action so it should be fun.
I get what you're saying and I appreciate your taking the time to write thoughtful posts.
My take is that people are angry because there is an issue of trust, or lack thereof. In other words, it seems by some of the comments that people feel they are being lied to. I don't know whether Hartsman is being disingenuous or not. But if people feel that he is, they will also feel disrespected. Therefore, they will lash out.
I'm not justifying any side here. I'm just trying to show where I think the animosity is coming from in this thread. I really don't think it's about the money.
What is a fair model for a studio to have, that generates revenue but you as a gamer do not feel cheated? Keep in mind, people come from all walks of life, and have different budgets. I'm honestly curious, because most things I see are:
1) Do away with subscriptions
2) Loot boxes are a scam, the need to go away
3) Micro-transaction are a cancer and money gouge.
Studios cannot create content, support a game or deliver on promises without the flow of cash.
So, what is the ideal system for you to hand your hard earned money to the developers of these games?
We can look at games and developers that seem to have a lot of good will from players/consumers. Path of Exile and Warframe are two that come to mind. Why is this? What are their practices?
There are other games that are slightly more controversial, but seem to be doing alright, like Black Desert Online and Elder Scrolls Online.
And there are publishers that are hated. Can we look at these groups and derive some categories of best practices and practices to avoid?
Finally, a company like EA, for example, gives zero shits about anything other than profit. They are obligated to maximize profit. Therefore, they will always be pushing the limits to siphon money out of people at a maximal rate.
you go to a store and wanna buy a flat screen. now the vendor tell you he has 4 boxes here.... and you have to chose.
ONE of them, has the TV... the others? not so much gl!
This problem with all games in general that have a RNG system for cash. I used to not mind it but to many games are over reaching to much, then change my mind not to like it at all.
I don't know why people have lash out so vilely. It's seriously messed up that some of you post such hate.
Of course I see things differently. I see a CEO who's team seemingly made a bad decision step up to the place, take the accountability on himself, and apologize. What in the hell else can someone do?
I know there are some snarky self-righteous condescending comments just waiting spew out of those keyboards how it shouldn't have even been a thing in the first place, but how can you honestly say that given the environment of the industry. Hell, some people can't even be honest and consistent with themselves and others between threads.
Why would the Rift team suspect that a loot crate with a guaranteed top end payout would garner so much backlash just because it's $100. ESO sells a house that costs $125. Crowfall just announced it's cash shop will have an item cost cap of $200. Ashes just launched new buy in packages that a lot juicier than their analogous Kickstarter packages, for just about 25% more. Wait, that's not all, Pantheon just advertised their $1000 pre-alpha buy in. And Trino gets a hit for a $100 horse? People call Scott all sorts of horrible names for that?
Sorry, but some people should be ashamed, not only for their vitriol, but mostly for the hypocrisy. The vitriol is enough though. It's unwarranted to treat anyone like that.
People are willing to pick the battles when all the battles are the same comes down to, and never go down to the root of the problem. Why we see a lot people are quick to defend one game when it's doing the same thing as a other game or never big news or lash back.
I don't know why people have lash out so vilely. It's seriously messed up that some of you post such hate.
Of course I see things differently. I see a CEO who's team seemingly made a bad decision step up to the place, take the accountability on himself, and apologize. What in the hell else can someone do?
I know there are some snarky self-righteous condescending comments just waiting spew out of those keyboards how it shouldn't have even been a thing in the first place, but how can you honestly say that given the environment of the industry. Hell, some people can't even be honest and consistent with themselves and others between threads.
Why would the Rift team suspect that a loot crate with a guaranteed top end payout would garner so much backlash just because it's $100. ESO sells a house that costs $125. Crowfall just announced it's cash shop will have an item cost cap of $200. Ashes just launched new buy in packages that a lot juicier than their analogous Kickstarter packages, for just about 25% more. Wait, that's not all, Pantheon just advertised their $1000 pre-alpha buy in. And Trino gets a hit for a $100 horse? People call Scott all sorts of horrible names for that?
Sorry, but some people should be ashamed, not only for their vitriol, but mostly for the hypocrisy. The vitriol is enough though. It's unwarranted to treat anyone like that.
Because they are charging $100 which is in no way a small sum of money for a chance at an ugly mount in an almost dead mmo AND people already dislike Trion for many, many reasons. Many if not all of those reasons people have grown to dislike Trion for is because of Hartsman. He is the CEO and makes all the final decisions so who else will disgruntled players vent their frustrations to? their community managers that immediately delete anything remotely critical in their forums or their employees who have no say whatsoever in any decisions?
You remember a guy named John Smedley? he could piss gold, hand cups of it out to players and would still be hated til' the end of time for the decisions he's made, the same goes for Hartsman #thenorthremembers. The harsh reactions by the gaming community is justified when ONE PERSON lies, cheats, steals once or many times over for their personal gain. You'll probably see a few people involved with those games you mentioned above + SC added to that "list" very soon. Being put on "the list" is one of the risks of being involved with the gaming industry and in saner times was an insurance policy to deter bad behavior.
I stumbled upon this comment; you are out of the loop. Hardly anybody uses Steam to play Rift or any Trion game; I use Glyph https://glyph.trionworlds.com. I have put thousands of hours into Rift, and I never once used Steam, all of my friends that play Rift use Glyph as well. Using Steam to prove your point is pointless.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
This was a purely cosmetic item? I don’t get why people complained. It wasn’t like it was too end gear or max level or anything having any power. It was a mount? The amount of entitlement these days is astonishing.
We want to play these games but we want to complain about every item they sell so they can keep developing even though it’s entirely non impacting to anyone but the buyer??
Why would anyone care if someone decided to buy a $100 box with a mount other than they can’t afford it?? Otherwise mind you business, you can’t afford a Ferrari either and I don’t see you complaining about that do I?
This was a purely cosmetic item? I don’t get why people complained. It wasn’t like it was too end gear or max level or anything having any power. It was a mount? The amount of entitlement these days is astonishing.
We want to play these games but we want to complain about every item they sell so they can keep developing even though it’s entirely non impacting to anyone but the buyer??
Why would anyone care if someone decided to buy a $100 box with a mount other than they can’t afford it?? Otherwise mind you business, you can’t afford a Ferrari either and I don’t see you complaining about that do I?
Nice try Scott Hartsman. Also that analogy doesn't work or fit in scope of the topic.
This was a purely cosmetic item? I don’t get why people complained. It wasn’t like it was too end gear or max level or anything having any power. It was a mount? The amount of entitlement these days is astonishing.
We want to play these games but we want to complain about every item they sell so they can keep developing even though it’s entirely non impacting to anyone but the buyer??
Why would anyone care if someone decided to buy a $100 box with a mount other than they can’t afford it?? Otherwise mind you business, you can’t afford a Ferrari either and I don’t see you complaining about that do I?
Nice try Scott Hartsman. Also that analogy doesn't work or fit in scope of the topic.
I’m Scott because I like playing games and not complaining about things that shouldn’t and don’t matter? So because I don’t whine and complain like you I am Scott? How pathetic ? The sale of something in game that has no impact on me shouldn’t frustrate me so much that I bash the people doing it.
Your reply was made personal and directed right at me which shows the type of person you are.
This was a purely cosmetic item? I don’t get why people complained. It wasn’t like it was too end gear or max level or anything having any power. It was a mount? The amount of entitlement these days is astonishing.
We want to play these games but we want to complain about every item they sell so they can keep developing even though it’s entirely non impacting to anyone but the buyer??
Why would anyone care if someone decided to buy a $100 box with a mount other than they can’t afford it?? Otherwise mind you business, you can’t afford a Ferrari either and I don’t see you complaining about that do I?
This is you, right? You made the same reference on that site when comparing the game boxes where they were selling Rift gear. If it's not you, it's a fantastic coincidence that you made the same exact reference here:
"Nobody is forcing you to buy anything.
When Ferrari releases a new car do you cry foul because of the price? Or do you choose not to buy it and continue to go about your day?"
I was looking to play this game despite all the controversy behind the recent cash shop items for sale, because I never tried it and I was looking for something that allows me to be flexible when it comes to class choices. If this kind of behavior is indicative of the current community within Rift, however, perhaps it would be best to give the game and its players a wide berth.
This was a purely cosmetic item? I don’t get why people complained. It wasn’t like it was too end gear or max level or anything having any power. It was a mount? The amount of entitlement these days is astonishing.
We want to play these games but we want to complain about every item they sell so they can keep developing even though it’s entirely non impacting to anyone but the buyer??
Why would anyone care if someone decided to buy a $100 box with a mount other than they can’t afford it?? Otherwise mind you business, you can’t afford a Ferrari either and I don’t see you complaining about that do I?
This is you, right? You made the same reference on that site when comparing the game boxes where they were selling Rift gear. If it's not you, it's a fantastic coincidence that you made the same exact reference here:
"Nobody is forcing you to buy anything.
When Ferrari releases a new car do you cry foul because of the price? Or do you choose not to buy it and continue to go about your day?"
I was looking to play this game despite all the controversy behind the recent cash shop items for sale, because I never tried it and I was looking for something that allows me to be flexible when it comes to class choices. If this kind of behavior is indicative of the current community within Rift, however, perhaps it would be best to give the game and its players a wide berth.
It’s a stretch that two different people think similarly about the truth of the matter? I don’t think so. I am also not wackwoo.
It is also amazing how you can judge a games entire population and the game itself based on a single opinion that you don’t agree with. Sounds crazy doesn’t it?
It's really not the person, as I said I don't really care about the lootbox controversy, considering I don't use them and don't care about people who do. A game is not a competition to me, especially when I'm playing a co-op mode like raiding or questing.
I said specifically about the community here, and considering that everywhere I have looked when it comes to this game (see above; I haven't been reading just one site for my opinion) it seems there's no give when it comes to that sort of opinion. As an example, I don't care about loot boxes since I don't use them, but I understand both sides of the issue. @nariusseldon loves them since his/her games are subsidized for it, and I understand that view perfectly. Other people also talk about how in a pvp game or a game where they are proud of their achievements, loot boxes or any performance changing micro transaction can feel like a dilution of their own achievement and work, not to mention it could invade their own standards.
Perhaps instead of attacking a person bluntly for making an observation about two similar statements and how coarse you are being towards other people, I would perhaps enjoy a game that is at least partially based on the community, as all MMOs are. It seems wherever I go though, proponents of Rift seem unwilling to empathize with people's concerns, and dismiss any opinion that could be seen as negative towards the game.
Rift is f2p. sure, expansions and goodies can be bought upfront for early access. Eventually, all expansions have become free to play.
This mount crate would have granted a mount. There are 42 mounts, of which you would have gotten one, that was sellable.
The price for the crate however was beyond stupid and way too expensive.
So here it is.. any business works with profits.. No profit, no future for the company. So they try.. and get called out on bad decisions. They learned quickly this time and removed the crate.
Now we'll see if the lesson learned will last.
sidenote.. these mounts are not sold in shop on a permanent base. They are premium mounts, for all chars on the account.
Most if not all mounts in the shop are for one char only.
Comments
This however insures I will never touch another Trion game again.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Ridiculous price, but easily ignored.
I just found that Reddit post funny, as someone who has worked in marketing. There may well be a genuine apology in there... or they may have done the whole thing on purpose for exposure. We'll never know. Either way, that Reddit post is filled with propaganda techniques and was very finely drafted to promote the game.
I heard they removed the option to buy them individually when they introduced the loot box but I can't 100% confirm that myself.
It would seem pretty apparent to me that the publishers might wanna pump the brakes a minute to at least try and let the last event die down completely before they test out a new one.
My take is that people are angry because there is an issue of trust, or lack thereof. In other words, it seems by some of the comments that people feel they are being lied to. I don't know whether Hartsman is being disingenuous or not. But if people feel that he is, they will also feel disrespected. Therefore, they will lash out.
I'm not justifying any side here. I'm just trying to show where I think the animosity is coming from in this thread. I really don't think it's about the money.
There are other games that are slightly more controversial, but seem to be doing alright, like Black Desert Online and Elder Scrolls Online.
And there are publishers that are hated. Can we look at these groups and derive some categories of best practices and practices to avoid?
Finally, a company like EA, for example, gives zero shits about anything other than profit. They are obligated to maximize profit. Therefore, they will always be pushing the limits to siphon money out of people at a maximal rate.
Tell that to the puppies.
This problem with all games in general that have a RNG system for cash. I used to not mind it but to many games are over reaching to much, then change my mind not to like it at all.
People are willing to pick the battles when all the battles are the same comes down to, and never go down to the root of the problem. Why we see a lot people are quick to defend one game when it's doing the same thing as a other game or never big news or lash back.
It takes one to know one.
I'm calling shenanigans
I stumbled upon this comment; you are out of the loop. Hardly anybody uses Steam to play Rift or any Trion game; I use Glyph https://glyph.trionworlds.com. I have put thousands of hours into Rift, and I never once used Steam, all of my friends that play Rift use Glyph as well. Using Steam to prove your point is pointless.
We want to play these games but we want to complain about every item they sell so they can keep developing even though it’s entirely non impacting to anyone but the buyer??
Why would anyone care if someone decided to buy a $100 box with a mount other than they can’t afford it?? Otherwise mind you business, you can’t afford a Ferrari either and I don’t see you complaining about that do I?
Nice try Scott Hartsman. Also that analogy doesn't work or fit in scope of the topic.
Your reply was made personal and directed right at me which shows the type of person you are.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/members/1358504-Wackywoo
This is you, right? You made the same reference on that site when comparing the game boxes where they were selling Rift gear. If it's not you, it's a fantastic coincidence that you made the same exact reference here:
When Ferrari releases a new car do you cry foul because of the price? Or do you choose not to buy it and continue to go about your day?"
I was looking to play this game despite all the controversy behind the recent cash shop items for sale, because I never tried it and I was looking for something that allows me to be flexible when it comes to class choices. If this kind of behavior is indicative of the current community within Rift, however, perhaps it would be best to give the game and its players a wide berth.
It is also amazing how you can judge a games entire population and the game itself based on a single opinion that you don’t agree with. Sounds crazy doesn’t it?
I said specifically about the community here, and considering that everywhere I have looked when it comes to this game (see above; I haven't been reading just one site for my opinion) it seems there's no give when it comes to that sort of opinion. As an example, I don't care about loot boxes since I don't use them, but I understand both sides of the issue. @nariusseldon loves them since his/her games are subsidized for it, and I understand that view perfectly. Other people also talk about how in a pvp game or a game where they are proud of their achievements, loot boxes or any performance changing micro transaction can feel like a dilution of their own achievement and work, not to mention it could invade their own standards.
Perhaps instead of attacking a person bluntly for making an observation about two similar statements and how coarse you are being towards other people, I would perhaps enjoy a game that is at least partially based on the community, as all MMOs are. It seems wherever I go though, proponents of Rift seem unwilling to empathize with people's concerns, and dismiss any opinion that could be seen as negative towards the game.
sure, expansions and goodies can be bought upfront for early access. Eventually, all expansions have become free to play.
This mount crate would have granted a mount. There are 42 mounts, of which you would have gotten one, that was sellable.
The price for the crate however was beyond stupid and way too expensive.
So here it is.. any business works with profits.. No profit, no future for the company. So they try.. and get called out on bad decisions. They learned quickly this time and removed the crate.
Now we'll see if the lesson learned will last.
sidenote.. these mounts are not sold in shop on a permanent base. They are premium mounts, for all chars on the account. Most if not all mounts in the shop are for one char only.