DAOC - 17 years later

Luiden

It's interesting to me that after 17 years of DAOC being released that there hasn't been a single company/game that has tried to create this experience or game model.  Is it because game companies just don't understand it?  They don't understand just how different RvR is from PvP?  It had a perfect marriage between PvE and RvR and for some reason nobody has tried to emulate or clone it?  It just seems odd to me with so many WoW or Korean clones that nobody is willing to take a chance on probably the most dynamic and interesting game play we have ever seen in a MMORPG.  What's the disconnect?

Coldren

... ESO? It's pretty close.. And made by many of the same team members that made DAoC.

Just without the classes, really. 

Sovrath

Luiden said:

It's interesting to me that after 17 years of DAOC being released that there hasn't been a single company/game that has tried to create this experience or game model.  Is it because game companies just don't understand it?  They don't understand just how different RvR is from PvP?  It had a perfect marriage between PvE and RvR and for some reason nobody has tried to emulate or clone it?  It just seems odd to me with so many WoW or Korean clones that nobody is willing to take a chance on probably the most dynamic and interesting game play we have ever seen in a MMORPG.  What's the disconnect?

I'm going with different players.

People who played the heck out of Dark Age of Camelot like to tout "realm pride'. I can assure you, realm pride is sort of dead. At least for the inundation of the new type of player who just doesn't care.

I played Aion thinking "awesome, it's us against them". But in truth my side was just as quick to grief its own members as the other side was to attack us.

Just because there's a faction system doesn't mean that people will sign on whole heartedly. Now, maybe if they made the games where you had to socialize, had to be part of the group otherwise things couldn't get done. That might work but then you get the "it's forced grouping" (which it's not, no one is "forcing them to play the game".)

AAAMEOW

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

ScotchUp

ESO was suppose to work exactly like DAOC.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/02/eso-daoc-legacy/

Sad pvp is so messed up, almost non-playable most of time for a lot of players.

If they couldn't get pvp lag to get better after this long we will never see any game play like we had with DAOC.

They made the big change in world where you can go anywhere also hurt the pvp crowd.

The game could have been so much more. Sad really, I go back every now and then but pvp never seems to get a lot of love.

Coldren

ScotchUp said:

ESO was suppose to work exactly like DAOC.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2013/02/eso-daoc-legacy/

Sad pvp is so messed up, almost non-playable most of time for a lot of players.

If they couldn't get pvp lag to get better after this long we will never see any game play like we had with DAOC.

They made the big change in world where you can go anywhere also hurt the pvp crowd.

The game could have been so much more. Sad really, I go back every now and then but pvp never seems to get a lot of love.

I agree the lag is a big issue, though I disagree that "go anywhere" hurt PvP, at least when I last played. When I queued up for RvR, I fought people of other factions, no matter what I did in PvE. Sure, the coordination between factions (Green Alliance, at the time) was annoyance, but that kind of thing also went on in DAoC, just not on such a massive scale.

Also just occurred to me - Camelot Unchained is on it's way too!

Letsinod

Isnt Camelot Unchained supposed to bridge this gap?

ScotchUp

I guess it's all in the taste of the player. Yet, this game could be so much more. The beauty of the game will stand for years.

To get pvp lag to work great for all may need a new engine under it, and we all know that won't happen.

Thing is no matter how upset I get with game at times, I keep going back.

Sorry for going little off topic. Yes, I still login to DAOC at times and it brings a lot of great memories back.

MadFrenchie

Sovrath said:

Luiden said:

It's interesting to me that after 17 years of DAOC being released that there hasn't been a single company/game that has tried to create this experience or game model.  Is it because game companies just don't understand it?  They don't understand just how different RvR is from PvP?  It had a perfect marriage between PvE and RvR and for some reason nobody has tried to emulate or clone it?  It just seems odd to me with so many WoW or Korean clones that nobody is willing to take a chance on probably the most dynamic and interesting game play we have ever seen in a MMORPG.  What's the disconnect?

I'm going with different players.

People who played the heck out of Dark Age of Camelot like to tout "realm pride'. I can assure you, realm pride is sort of dead. At least for the inundation of the new type of player who just doesn't care.

I played Aion thinking "awesome, it's us against them". But in truth my side was just as quick to grief its own members as the other side was to attack us.

Just because there's a faction system doesn't mean that people will sign on whole heartedly. Now, maybe if they made the games where you had to socialize, had to be part of the group otherwise things couldn't get done. That might work but then you get the "it's forced grouping" (which it's not, no one is "forcing them to play the game".)

The advent of cross-realm grouping did wonders to kill "realm pride" or "faction pride."

Without being familiar with your side, there's no added emotional incentive to defend your side.

And your last paragraph is super apropos.  +1

Tokken

wish they would make a ...........

DAOC 2....... with modern engine and graphics.

Coldren

Tokken said:

wish they would make a ...........

DAOC 2....... with modern engine and graphics.

Heh.. Remember when Mythic trolled us in Warhammer Online, by making that portal that lead to Cotswold in the new game engine?

I'll never forgive them for that

DrDread74

Luiden said:

It's interesting to me that after 17 years of DAOC being released that there hasn't been a single company/game that has tried to create this experience or game model.  Is it because game companies just don't understand it?  They don't understand just how different RvR is from PvP?  It had a perfect marriage between PvE and RvR and for some reason nobody has tried to emulate or clone it?  It just seems odd to me with so many WoW or Korean clones that nobody is willing to take a chance on probably the most dynamic and interesting game play we have ever seen in a MMORPG.  What's the disconnect?

Nobody is replicating the model because they are too buys making 10x more money with loot boxes

Lord.Bachus

Its almost unthinkable that any company would give players this day a 1 minute Area of Effect Mzz that could just as easilly mezz 2 as it could 80 people..

Yet these distinct and powerfull class roles made DAoC special...  

Kyleran

Letsinod said:

Isnt Camelot Unchained supposed to bridge this gap?

Someday whenever it gets around to being released,  but even then it won't be DAOC 2, more like a fragment of the original.

AAAMEOW

Tokken said:

wish they would make a ...........

DAOC 2....... with modern engine and graphics.

They probably need to keep the graphic terrible else it'll lag.  Or they'll need to hide much of the graphic detail during zerg fight.

Scot

Both Warhammer and ESO are the successors to DAOC. But they never really lived up to the expectation when it comes to realm versus realm.

By the time Warhammer was released, MMOs had already started the unwinnable graphic arms race with solo games. That race, to make a game that has huge number of people in it also have graphics as good as games that have one player, is at the heart of many of the MMO design issues we have today. 

rojoArcueid

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Kyleran

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

Kyleran

AAAMEOW said:

Tokken said:

wish they would make a ...........

DAOC 2....... with modern engine and graphics.

They probably need to keep the graphic terrible else it'll lag.  Or they'll need to hide much of the graphic detail during zerg fight.

Well, CU has demonstrated their engine can manage large fights of over 1K players with reasonable graphics and performance, we'll see how well it works in the release.

Luiden

Kyleran said:

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like.  Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater.  I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet.  Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.

Scot

Luiden said:

Kyleran said:

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like.  Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater.  I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet.  Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.

MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.

Luiden

Scot said:

Luiden said:

Kyleran said:

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like.  Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater.  I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet.  Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.

MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.

There are more costs.. but I don't think that's a factor in this situation.  There isn't a publisher like EA who is forcing their hand.. it's crowdfunded and from what I can tell they have more money than they know what to do with... so maybe it's more of a function of time?  I don't know, but I would like them to be more ambitious with their vision.. but that's just me.

kitarad

I don't like PvP but DAoC style is not bad because your PvE is relatively PvP free and you go to the frontiers to PvP  which is totally acceptable for me and one I can indulge in.

MadFrenchie

Luiden said:

Scot said:

Luiden said:

Kyleran said:

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like.  Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater.  I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet.  Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.

MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.

There are more costs.. but I don't think that's a factor in this situation.  There isn't a publisher like EA who is forcing their hand.. it's crowdfunded and from what I can tell they have more money than they know what to do with... so maybe it's more of a function of time?  I don't know, but I would like them to be more ambitious with their vision.. but that's just me.

PvE content is much more labor-intensive than PvP content.  This was probably a large contributing factor.

I'd certainly like to see them add supporting PvE content once it's released.  Something that contributes indirectly to the PvP core.  But if they're focused on getting the PvP done right on a large scale, I can accept PvE being left out or cut back.  Depends upon how much more enjoyable the RvR will be for the focus they're putting on it.

AAAMEOW

Luiden said:

Scot said:

Luiden said:

Kyleran said:

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like.  Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater.  I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet.  Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.

MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.

There are more costs.. but I don't think that's a factor in this situation.  There isn't a publisher like EA who is forcing their hand.. it's crowdfunded and from what I can tell they have more money than they know what to do with... so maybe it's more of a function of time?  I don't know, but I would like them to be more ambitious with their vision.. but that's just me.

I thought their budget right now is like 6 million.  As you know other games have budget in the hundred of million.

Luiden

AAAMEOW said:

Luiden said:

Scot said:

Luiden said:

Kyleran said:

rojoArcueid said:

AAAMEOW said:

People involved in warhammer online, GW2, and ESO all come from DAOC.  

I think the point is making a game "only" about RvR instead of making a mmorpg which include RvR.  I don't know if it'll be successful in the current era.

RvR is a small portion of the game. If that becomes the main focus and they leave the rest of the game as a crappy afterthought then the game will die faster than if they focus on the bigger part of the game.

I think there is enough room to make both RvR and the rest of the game top notch.

Mark Jacobs is betting you are wrong as CU is all about the RVR from DAOC without (for the most part) the rest of the game.

That's why I don't see CU as something a lot of DAOC are going to like.  Yes they are excited about it, but what made DAOC great was the diversity in the game... RvR was big, but for a lot of players supporting RvR through PvE was even greater.  I know Mark is betting that PvE doesn't matter, but I think he may lose on that bet.  Or more correctly, the game may be successful but it wont be successful like a true DAOC 2 would be.

MMO's benefit from diversity of gameplay as long as they do not have conflicting systems. But more gameplay equals more development costs. I agree CU will not be DAOC 2, we will have to judge it by its own merits as we should every new release.

There are more costs.. but I don't think that's a factor in this situation.  There isn't a publisher like EA who is forcing their hand.. it's crowdfunded and from what I can tell they have more money than they know what to do with... so maybe it's more of a function of time?  I don't know, but I would like them to be more ambitious with their vision.. but that's just me.

I thought their budget right now is like 6 million.  As you know other games have budget in the hundred of million.

I think they have taken in over 4 million and then Marc has put up a lot of his money too.  But what I'm saying is they can easily get more if they ask.. but they are choosing the route they are taking.  I do like the fact that they are focusing on a core game and keeping the team somewhat small during development.. but towards the end, I would love it if they asked for 5 more million.. hired a bunch of artist content creators to get PvE in.  I know that's a simple statement, but it's something that I personally would prefer to see in the game.  A mix of PvE and RvR to create the perfect gaming environment.    I'm getting older, I need the perfect game to retire with.