Star Citizen 3.0 License update

Tiamat64

https://imgur.com/RUnPfk0

"6. Injunction. Because company would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this Agreement were not specifically enforced, you agree that Company shall be entitled, without bond, other security or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Company may otherwise have under applicable laws."


Dear Chris Roberts or Ortwin or whoever,

I understand that right now you might be filled with hotdog envy over Crytek for hiring Skadden in that lawsuit against you, but that doesn't mean you can just take Skadden's "complicated" cool awesome words of amazing like "injunction" or "remedies" and then throw them around like you know what they actually mean.

Repeat after me. "Just because Skadden used a word does not make it an instant "I win" button if I use it, too."

Thank you.

PS: Threatening to sue your backers for breaking your ToS is both unenforceable and hilariously.... argh, I just can't put this into words.  I'm almost convinced that was written that way by a disgruntled CiG employee on purpose after Ortwin shouted at him to add some legalese to the ToS or something.

MaxBacon

Nitpicking over typical ToS legalese? There are places to send a the message to CIG, certainly is not creating a thread here lol

I think you're attempting to use a potential unawareness of some on how ToS legalese is often put by companies to feed narrative against SC, now for those who do...

Daranar

That's pretty standard, isn't it?  There is always wording to take action against not only 'testers' but customers if they break the ToS.  I mean look at Epic Games, not only do they have clauses such as this, but they are acting on them.

MaxBacon

Daranar said:

That's pretty standard, isn't it?  There is always wording to take action against not only 'testers' but customers if they break the ToS.  I mean look at Epic Games, not only do they have clauses such as this, but they are acting on them.

Yeah but Epic Games is not the devil, CIG is the devil, that's why everyone is supposed to boo at CIG for everything even if they are doing something normal within company/business practices.

rodarin

so ANOTHER change to their TOS how many is that now? 8? 10?

how star citizen of them....

laserit

I have my own ToS

And by taking my money, it means that you agree to my terms

BLNX

This has got to be the silliest post I've ever seen.

Every Terms of Service Agreement is draconian in nature, especially when the product is in an alpha or beta state. If you look through the ToS, I bet there is also an agreement to go to arbitration in case of any actions taken and that using the product in any way 'they' don't see fit is actionable.

Whether or not a ToS would hold up in a court of law (or arbitration) is a point of contention in any case, but this is their agreement, of course they are going to put in everything they want, that's the point.



Did you know most electronic storefronts only provide "licenses" to a game or song or movie and technically you don't own it? Did you know they can revoke a specific license or your account at any time without your input or any reason besides 'we felt like it'?


You should read more of these.

Canibaloler

I have played many mmos all those years but always skipping to read the ToS :P 
I,m always like "oh its this wall of text that no one bothers so lets agree to play the f* game" 
I'm surprised that actually THERE ARE people who reading the ToS  

Kefo

Canibaloler said:

I have played many mmos all those years but always skipping to read the ToS :P 
I,m always like "oh its this wall of text that no one bothers so lets agree to play the f* game" 
I'm surprised that actually THERE ARE people who reading the ToS  

With SC you have to read the TOS. They try and take away a little more of your rights every update even though it would never stand up in a court of law

ConstantineMerus

laserit said:

I have my own ToS

And by taking my money, it means that you agree to my terms

Certainly you have never been robbed

Daranar

Kefo said:

Canibaloler said:

I have played many mmos all those years but always skipping to read the ToS :P 
I,m always like "oh its this wall of text that no one bothers so lets agree to play the f* game" 
I'm surprised that actually THERE ARE people who reading the ToS  

With SC you have to read the TOS. They try and take away a little more of your rights every update even though it would never stand up in a court of law

LOL, everyone updates their ToS regularly.  No more than banks and financial institutions.  But I love that you say you have to read the TOS with them even though it would never hold up in court...so why do you have to?  lol.   The majority of any game's ToS wouldn't hold up in the court of law.  Just because it's their and you hit accept, doesn't mean it's legally binding.  It always baffles me how many people think that they are bound to all the BS in a ToS or any contract.   It's like when you go to a Ski Resort.  Do you ever read what you are 'agreeing' to?  It's absurd and it's all completely null and void with a whiff of negligence on the resort's part.  It doesn't matter if you agreed or not.

Kefo

Daranar said:

Kefo said:

Canibaloler said:

I have played many mmos all those years but always skipping to read the ToS :P 
I,m always like "oh its this wall of text that no one bothers so lets agree to play the f* game" 
I'm surprised that actually THERE ARE people who reading the ToS  

With SC you have to read the TOS. They try and take away a little more of your rights every update even though it would never stand up in a court of law

LOL, everyone updates their ToS regularly.  No more than banks and financial institutions.  But I love that you say you have to read the TOS with them even though it would never hold up in court...so why do you have to?  lol.   The majority of any game's ToS wouldn't hold up in the court of law.  Just because it's their and you hit accept, doesn't mean it's legally binding.  It always baffles me how many people think that they are bound to all the BS in a ToS or any contract.   It's like when you go to a Ski Resort.  Do you ever read what you are 'agreeing' to?  It's absurd and it's all completely null and void with a whiff of negligence on the resort's part.  It doesn't matter if you agreed or not.

I read them so I can giggle at what they think they can get away with. It's amazing some of the stuff companies put in there to try and absolve themselves from any wrong doing

Wizardry

Well if i remember researching this in the past,it is legally binding,a sort of contract.There is only a problem if the agreement circumvents real law which always overrides any other inside law.
There are also stipulations like misleading information,in other words the TOS can be void if it was worded in a way to mislead/deceive.
Again going on memory,it also has to be reasonably understood,other words,it cannot be worded in a way that nobody could understand it.Then again the argument would be ,why sign something you don't understand,so then again you argue ,it was worded in a way to deceive/mislead me into thinking otherwise.

IMO there is an automatic door opened to mislead and deceive gamer's once these type of business models begin.You NEVER know what is just around the corner,what you THOUGHT the game was going to become might be far from reality,which is why you often see a clause that states "your gaming experience may change or differ from others" or similar to this.

People should NOT be supporting shotty business practices,you are basically allowing them to be crooks,legal crooks.

Kefo

Wizardry said:

Well if i remember researching this in the past,it is legally binding,a sort of contract.There is only a problem if the agreement circumvents real law which always overrides any other inside law.
There are also stipulations like misleading information,in other words the TOS can be void if it was worded in a way to mislead/deceive.
Again going on memory,it also has to be reasonably understood,other words,it cannot be worded in a way that nobody could understand it.Then again the argument would be ,why sign something you don't understand,so then again you argue ,it was worded in a way to deceive/mislead me into thinking otherwise.

The one I always like is when they(any company) add a binding arbritration clause if things go south. In Canada that becomes null and void as it would override our consumer protection laws

Tiamat64

Daranar said:

That's pretty standard, isn't it?  There is always wording to take action against not only 'testers' but customers if they break the ToS.  I mean look at Epic Games, not only do they have clauses such as this, but they are acting on them.

Okay, so I just went over Epic's ToS.  At most Epic's ToS just says it'll "suspend or terminate your account" and turn over any unclaimed property on the account "to authorities."  And even then, it says "after investigation", unlike CiG's ToS which says "without bond, security, or proof of damage".

It doesn't say anything about taking action against the customers themselves.  Even that time they sued that boy, it was something completely unrelated to the Terms of Service (and instead they were suing on copyright grounds).

BLNX said:

This has got to be the silliest post I've ever seen.

Every Terms of Service Agreement is draconian in nature, especially when the product is in an alpha or beta state. If you look through the ToS, I bet there is also an agreement to go to arbitration in case of any actions taken and that using the product in any way 'they' don't see fit is actionable.

Whether or not a ToS would hold up in a court of law (or arbitration) is a point of contention in any case, but this is their agreement, of course they are going to put in everything they want, that's the point.



Did you know most electronic storefronts only provide "licenses" to a game or song or movie and technically you don't own it? Did you know they can revoke a specific license or your account at any time without your input or any reason besides 'we felt like it'?


You should read more of these.

Terminating the license is a far cry from "seeking equitable remedies".  That's why I said that CiG was misusing that term, or alternatively that CiG is really stupid they think they can sue someone over this, which no other ToS states.  All other ToS's stop at "They can suspend your account at any time" and don't go beyond that.

Yeesh, I guess legal terms really ARE hard for a lot of people to understand and their seriousness underestimated.  No wonder why lawyers make so much money.

It also gives a good explanation why CiG could have broken so many terms of the Crytek license agreement.  Odds are they interpretted all that contract "stuff" about remedies and injunctions as something you'd find in any old ToS.  Just like lots of people in this thread are doing!  Fortunately for those people, they aren't enforceable in a ToS, which is why no other company puts them in there.  Those are legal terms with very specific meanings for contracts, but apparently CiG doesn't (and didn't...) realize that.

laserit

ConstantineMerus said:

laserit said:

I have my own ToS

And by taking my money, it means that you agree to my terms

Certainly you have never been robbed

Only by the taxman my friend

Arglebargle

Of interest is whether this is just boilerplate for CIG, or if it's different from other TOS terminology.   Boilerplate wouldn't matter.   If it's not the same, the terminology still might not matter, but it would speak to their mindset. 

frostymug

I'm pretty far from a CIG fan, but I think this might just be over-analyzing.

I'd speculate and over-analyze that any change was made simply because they have now released something to the general public and they are hedging against asshattery.

Appropriate equitable remedies just means they are judge, jury, and executioner. Rather than legal equities, which would mean that it would have to be taken to court and they wouldn't have a whole lot of immediate recourse without potentially being taken to court themselves.  Considering the amount of money some people have thrown in would go beyond the limits of a standard small claims court, they better make sure every I is dotted and T crossed.

If anything, I would be more concerned that the wording might be them buttoning things up to announce what is out there, now or soonish, as the MVP release candidate. 

rodarin

So they release 3.0 to the masses have a holiday stream about something most guys were only interested in the first place and the only thing people talking about is a TOS change.

bwwaaahaaahaaaa yeah SC is a real game changer.