Call of Duty Swatting leads to death of a innocent man in Kansas

Asm0deus

Something some people should read:

When Cops Can Legally Shoot People

A law professor explains the sometimes tricky rules that govern when a police officer using lethal force is technically justified under the law.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/dpkzaa/cops-kill-america-black-lives-matter-civil-liberties-rights-law

MadFrenchie

Horusra said:

klash2def said:

SBFord said:

I hope that the investigation leads to a conviction of the guy in LA and a thorough investigation of how the hell he was shot in the first place. There seems to be a disconnect between the mother's story and the police version.

This always happens when the police kill someone. To justify the dead body. They said he was reaching for his waist..I find it hard to believe a confused man who did not own a weapon would be reaching for his waist in that situation. The truth is closer to the man being confused because the police were at his front door. Any of us would be confused. The policeman who shot him (even though he was tricked) didnt ask any questions, he shot the man because he was latino and the story fit the perp in his mind. This happens far too often for me to believe otherwise. That's a whole other bag to unpack.

I do not believe one second the police version. The mother is telling the truth. Imagine the police show up at your door, would your first reaction be to grab a imaginary gun and open the door reaching for your waist? really? That's the story they came with. smh..
Police. Are. Trigger. Happy. 

But still..None of this happens without that idiotic kid

Too bad body worn cameras have proved you false in most cases.  People should instead follow directions and not do stupid stuff.

Let's not start.  There's video of a man being shot while crawling towards the officer (why the fuck the officer needed the suspect to crawl towards him, I dunno).

Is every case a matter of police reacting terribly?  No.  But it happens, and it happens in situations where the application of force is not proportional to the gravity of the situation or action by the suspect.

bonzoso21

As if there wasn't enough information available already for people to question the responding officers' inability to verify information before using lethal force, the 911 call and distant bodycam footage have been released. The piece of garbage on the call describes a single-story house and the house where they killed the guy is two stories. At least the swatter guy is in jail. 

Quizzical

Asm0deus said:

Quizzical said:

Golelorn said:

My beef is why is SWAT going in guns blazing and not asking serious questions... like "Hey, is this maybe a prank? What does my intuition say?" Instead, they are so trigger happy they really don't care - and "we" do not hold these idiots with guns accountable.

Absolutely ridiculous a guy is murdered by a SWAT team and these idiots continue to fall for these pranks. SWAT doesn't care. They just want to blast a m-fer.

The trigger man should be in prison, and the captain(whoever is in charge) should be fired/resign immediately.

Because sometimes it's not a prank.  In the United States, about 100-200 police officers die on the job each year.  If you're an officer and go into a situation where you're confronting a criminal who will kill you if given a chance, you'd better pull the trigger quickly enough to stop him or you'll be dead.

Distinguishing between an innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time, a criminal who will cooperate with an arrest, and a very dangerous criminal who will try to kill the police that confront him is not always easy to do in the heat of the moment.

That's not an excuse for bad behavior and gross incompetence leading to an innocent getting killed in his doorstep.

Cops are "suppose" to be trained for these situation and to be able to make these "split second" decisions, they are suppose to follow a higher standard of behavior so they can fulfill their vows to "serve and protect". 

Sadly what is going in the USA is that far too many officers are putting "their lives" above those they are suppose to be serving and protecting and some people stupidly applaud this in the name of kissing the blues backside.

They do try to train for it, as well they should.  To take a less politically charged and less important situation, basketball players are trained to make the shots they take.  But they still miss a lot.  Reliably doing everything exactly right even when put into arbitrarily difficult situations is beyond human capabilities.

Could the training or recruitment be better?  Perhaps, though it's much harder to say it could be made better in this particular way than that there is probably some way that it could be made better.  But few Internet commentators have the expertise to justifiably say that there would be fewer mistakes on all sides if only the training were changed in this or that way.

klash2def

bonzoso21 said:

As if there wasn't enough information available already for people to question the responding officers' inability to verify information before using lethal force, the 911 call and distant bodycam footage have been released. The piece of garbage on the call describes a single-story house and the house where they killed the guy is two stories. At least the swatter guy is in jail. 

There you have it. Now they can end thread. 

klash2def

Quizzical said:

Asm0deus said:

Quizzical said:

Golelorn said:

My beef is why is SWAT going in guns blazing and not asking serious questions... like "Hey, is this maybe a prank? What does my intuition say?" Instead, they are so trigger happy they really don't care - and "we" do not hold these idiots with guns accountable.

Absolutely ridiculous a guy is murdered by a SWAT team and these idiots continue to fall for these pranks. SWAT doesn't care. They just want to blast a m-fer.

The trigger man should be in prison, and the captain(whoever is in charge) should be fired/resign immediately.

Because sometimes it's not a prank.  In the United States, about 100-200 police officers die on the job each year.  If you're an officer and go into a situation where you're confronting a criminal who will kill you if given a chance, you'd better pull the trigger quickly enough to stop him or you'll be dead.

Distinguishing between an innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time, a criminal who will cooperate with an arrest, and a very dangerous criminal who will try to kill the police that confront him is not always easy to do in the heat of the moment.

That's not an excuse for bad behavior and gross incompetence leading to an innocent getting killed in his doorstep.

Cops are "suppose" to be trained for these situation and to be able to make these "split second" decisions, they are suppose to follow a higher standard of behavior so they can fulfill their vows to "serve and protect". 

Sadly what is going in the USA is that far too many officers are putting "their lives" above those they are suppose to be serving and protecting and some people stupidly applaud this in the name of kissing the blues backside.

They do try to train for it, as well they should.  To take a less politically charged and less important situation, basketball players are trained to make the shots they take.  But they still miss a lot.  Reliably doing everything exactly right even when put into arbitrarily difficult situations is beyond human capabilities.

Could the training or recruitment be better?  Perhaps, though it's much harder to say it could be made better in this particular way than that there is probably some way that it could be made better.  But few Internet commentators have the expertise to justifiably say that there would be fewer mistakes on all sides if only the training were changed in this or that way.

But basketball is based on chance also. Meaning you can run the play perfectly but the damn ball just wont go in! The player did do the right thing it just didnt work. NBA guys can do everything right and still not score. There is defense also not just offense. So maybe you have a off night offensively but your defense is tight.

Thats not Police.. a Police mistake is more like the coach drawing up a play, but then nobody executes it. Everyone just goes out and throws a football not a basketball at the rim expecting it to go in. The entire thing is wrong. Then imagine if the team says "huh? our player did nothing wrong! Not all of our players throw footballs some are good players!" The NBA cant have guys who think throwing a football at the hoop is right when they are signed as basketball players.. Its just backwards. The person needed to fix that before he got to the NBA.

So thats not a police training thing. Thats an ethics thing with the person. Person needed to fix that way before getting any police training.

MadFrenchie

Quizzical said:

Asm0deus said:

Quizzical said:

Golelorn said:

My beef is why is SWAT going in guns blazing and not asking serious questions... like "Hey, is this maybe a prank? What does my intuition say?" Instead, they are so trigger happy they really don't care - and "we" do not hold these idiots with guns accountable.

Absolutely ridiculous a guy is murdered by a SWAT team and these idiots continue to fall for these pranks. SWAT doesn't care. They just want to blast a m-fer.

The trigger man should be in prison, and the captain(whoever is in charge) should be fired/resign immediately.

Because sometimes it's not a prank.  In the United States, about 100-200 police officers die on the job each year.  If you're an officer and go into a situation where you're confronting a criminal who will kill you if given a chance, you'd better pull the trigger quickly enough to stop him or you'll be dead.

Distinguishing between an innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time, a criminal who will cooperate with an arrest, and a very dangerous criminal who will try to kill the police that confront him is not always easy to do in the heat of the moment.

That's not an excuse for bad behavior and gross incompetence leading to an innocent getting killed in his doorstep.

Cops are "suppose" to be trained for these situation and to be able to make these "split second" decisions, they are suppose to follow a higher standard of behavior so they can fulfill their vows to "serve and protect". 

Sadly what is going in the USA is that far too many officers are putting "their lives" above those they are suppose to be serving and protecting and some people stupidly applaud this in the name of kissing the blues backside.

They do try to train for it, as well they should.  To take a less politically charged and less important situation, basketball players are trained to make the shots they take.  But they still miss a lot.  Reliably doing everything exactly right even when put into arbitrarily difficult situations is beyond human capabilities.

Could the training or recruitment be better?  Perhaps, though it's much harder to say it could be made better in this particular way than that there is probably some way that it could be made better.  But few Internet commentators have the expertise to justifiably say that there would be fewer mistakes on all sides if only the training were changed in this or that way.

The data doesn't lie.  Compared to other countries across the world, police shootings are much higher here in America...  much, much higher.

Sort of like gun control- some American citizens cannot be convinced of anything they don't wish to believe, no matter how much data or evidence supports it.

Dragnelus

Call from the suspect:

http://www.kansas.com/latest-news/article192242919.html

Asm0deus

Quizzical said:

Asm0deus said:

Quizzical said:

Golelorn said:

My beef is why is SWAT going in guns blazing and not asking serious questions... like "Hey, is this maybe a prank? What does my intuition say?" Instead, they are so trigger happy they really don't care - and "we" do not hold these idiots with guns accountable.

Absolutely ridiculous a guy is murdered by a SWAT team and these idiots continue to fall for these pranks. SWAT doesn't care. They just want to blast a m-fer.

The trigger man should be in prison, and the captain(whoever is in charge) should be fired/resign immediately.

Because sometimes it's not a prank.  In the United States, about 100-200 police officers die on the job each year.  If you're an officer and go into a situation where you're confronting a criminal who will kill you if given a chance, you'd better pull the trigger quickly enough to stop him or you'll be dead.

Distinguishing between an innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time, a criminal who will cooperate with an arrest, and a very dangerous criminal who will try to kill the police that confront him is not always easy to do in the heat of the moment.

That's not an excuse for bad behavior and gross incompetence leading to an innocent getting killed in his doorstep.

Cops are "suppose" to be trained for these situation and to be able to make these "split second" decisions, they are suppose to follow a higher standard of behavior so they can fulfill their vows to "serve and protect". 

Sadly what is going in the USA is that far too many officers are putting "their lives" above those they are suppose to be serving and protecting and some people stupidly applaud this in the name of kissing the blues backside.

They do try to train for it, as well they should.  To take a less politically charged and less important situation, basketball players are trained to make the shots they take.  But they still miss a lot.  Reliably doing everything exactly right even when put into arbitrarily difficult situations is beyond human capabilities.

Could the training or recruitment be better?  Perhaps, though it's much harder to say it could be made better in this particular way than that there is probably some way that it could be made better.  But few Internet commentators have the expertise to justifiably say that there would be fewer mistakes on all sides if only the training were changed in this or that way.

With all due respect it's damn ridiculous to compare playing basketball and this situation.  I am not cop bashing, it's a difficult job and not everyone is cut out for it.

The problem is that time and again it has been shown over the last 10 years that far too many cops are allowed to be cops when they are clearly not cut out for it, lack training, or have forgotten it and, this is where I think there is a huge problem, the training they are given isn't proper or needs to be re evaluated.

No one here can argue away the fact that cops today unholster their guns and shoot people out of being "fearful" for their lives when it's afterwards proven they were in no danger that required deadly force.

Just because an officer needs to make a split sec decision judgement call doesn't mean they should not be held responsible for the action they make.

Paid administrative leave is not that.

The victims mom and that family needs to sue the Wichita PD into the ground so this isn't just summarily dismissed like happens far too often.

Shodanas

thunderC said:

Just a quick update on this story and getting back to what the tragedy is really about, The kid (grown man 25) who called in the swat apparently was arrested in California and does this swatting for money, people hire him to swat others ( for 5-20 bucks) and he openly brags about it on his twitter page which i wont link but is easy to find if you go to reddit or just a simple google search. The big Argument the swatter is making on his twitter is its the police fault and he should be set free...... /sigh 

California has some "nice" penitentiary facilities. I hope that this man-child gets to taste one of them.

Dragnelus

Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said.

"The male then turned towards the officers on the east side of the residence, lowered his hands to the waistband again, then suddenly pulled them back up towards those officers at the east," he said. "The officers on the north side of the street feared the male pulled a weapon from his waistband, retrieved a gun and was in the process of pointing it at the officers to the east. Fearing for those officers’ safety, the officer on the north side fired one round."

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192281169.html

klash2def

"The mother said the police did NOT knock on the door. She said Andrew opened the door to investigate why the police were outside and that was when they shot him. They cleared the house before calling paramedics and they forced the family to walk over his body as he lie there bleeding out in the doorway. The family never heard of swatting before this."

  

Its on CNN now

Asm0deus

Dragnelus said:

Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said.

"The male then turned towards the officers on the east side of the residence, lowered his hands to the waistband again, then suddenly pulled them back up towards those officers at the east," he said. "The officers on the north side of the street feared the male pulled a weapon from his waistband, retrieved a gun and was in the process of pointing it at the officers to the east. Fearing for those officers’ safety, the officer on the north side fired one round."

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192281169.html

Doesn't mesh with what the family is saying, watch the video.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/12/innocent-man-instantly-shot-by-police-after-gamer-feud-over-2-results-in-swatting-prank-at-kansas-home/

I will let you all guess who I think is being more truthful here.

klash2def

Torval said:

klash2def said:

I will never understand this. Swatting is not just in COD.. My nephew was playing Division on xbox just on Thursday when i was over there.. he is 17 and I guess he was kicking some other dudes ass in the dark zone.. well my nephew has this guy who sounds like a full adult saying and i quote "keep laughing little bitch, you must be hacking i'm gonna swat you bitch." Thankfully nothing happened but still that term has become part of FPS/Online Shooter culture. So much so that even I didn't pay that moment much attention. We must have standards to this, we cant just be okay with things like this because as we see actual people get hurt not pixels. 

This kid gave a random address, that means others do it also, which means any of us could die to this prank..

Please parents please teach your kids how to lose. 

Is there a platform specific way to report people who make those threats? I mean Microsoft, Sony, Valve, BattleNet, and any other platform like those where players are shoved together.

I suspect the unintended consequence of this and other industry "issues" will likely lead to less anonymity and more intrusion for us. Punishment alone isn't enough, or won't be enough I suspect, and more proactive deterrents will be sought.

We also need to understand why a weapon was discharged in the first place. Uniformed services cannot simply continue to operate on hearsay, which has been so prevalent in these cases, with no consequences for when they fuck up. They fucked this up big time.

You know what Torval i'm surprised that there isn't a system in place. unless you block the IP address, the person can just make a new account and keep it up. Maybe some of the smart folks on this site can make the first app for such a thing?

I wish this guy didn't lose his life but reality is he did. Going to be interesting to see how it affects Activision and other companies moving forward. 

Dragnelus

klash2def said:

"The mother said the police did NOT knock on the door. She said Andrew opened the door to investigate why the police were outside and that was when they shot him. They cleared the house before calling paramedics and they forced the family to walk over his body as he lie there bleeding out in the doorway. The family never heard of swatting before this."

  

Its on CNN now

TheScavenger

This goes to show, violent video games lead to violent actions. But porn and porn games have never led to murder.

Looking at a nude body has never messed up someones mind so much where they will commit murder, like people who are really young and play very violent games and their brains grow into thinking violence is okay. 

I remember seeing a movie years ago, and a family had their young kids (dunno exact age, looked like elementary kids) and they were laughing and clapping during the scenes where heads and body parts were being chopped off with blood everywhere. But then a boob popped out, they made a loud gasp sound and walked out of the theater with the kids. As they walked out I shouted at them and laughed at how hypocritical they were.

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

ShaddyDaddy

TheScavenger said:

This goes to show, violent video games lead to violent actions. But porn and porn games have never led to murder.

Looking at a nude body has never messed up someones mind so much where they will commit murder, like people who are really young and play very violent games and their brains grow into thinking violence is okay. 

I remember seeing a movie years ago, and a family had their young kids (dunno exact age, looked like elementary kids) and they were laughing and clapping during the scenes where heads and body parts were being chopped off with blood everywhere. But then a boob popped out, they made a loud gasp sound and walked out of the theater with the kids. As they walked out I shouted at them and laughed at how hypocritical they were.

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

Are you fucking serious?

JeffSpicoli

TheScavenger said:

This goes to show, violent video games lead to violent actions. But porn and porn games have never led to murder.

Looking at a nude body has never messed up someones mind so much where they will commit murder, like people who are really young and play very violent games and their brains grow into thinking violence is okay. 

I remember seeing a movie years ago, and a family had their young kids (dunno exact age, looked like elementary kids) and they were laughing and clapping during the scenes where heads and body parts were being chopped off with blood everywhere. But then a boob popped out, they made a loud gasp sound and walked out of the theater with the kids. As they walked out I shouted at them and laughed at how hypocritical they were.

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

In a thread full of  light political sparring and people tip toeing around what they really want to say, what exactly are you advocating for ? Porno games?!  Im intrigued , do tell




Ok come on someone needed to lighten the mood around here 

TheScavenger

shaddy33 said:

TheScavenger said:

This goes to show, violent video games lead to violent actions. But porn and porn games have never led to murder.

Looking at a nude body has never messed up someones mind so much where they will commit murder, like people who are really young and play very violent games and their brains grow into thinking violence is okay. 

I remember seeing a movie years ago, and a family had their young kids (dunno exact age, looked like elementary kids) and they were laughing and clapping during the scenes where heads and body parts were being chopped off with blood everywhere. But then a boob popped out, they made a loud gasp sound and walked out of the theater with the kids. As they walked out I shouted at them and laughed at how hypocritical they were.

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

Are you fucking serious?

I have never seen an article where someone watched porn and then walked out of his house and gunned people down. There has never been a case where they've gone down and commited murder (either through themselves or swatting) just because they saw a boob. 

I have however seen MANY articles where someone has played very violent games, gone out and shot a bunch of people. Lots of articles. I'm sure a google search would find a whole bunch since its kinda a common occurence, especially if the person started playing violent games at a really early age. A boob however has never made someone go out and go on a killing rampage or swatting someone.

tawess

TheScavenger said:

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

Not really sure this had anything to do with violent games really.. I am sure this could have occured over a round of bloody candycrush if enough prestige was involved... 

Nah... This is a case of someone being raised rotten.. either by parents or society in large. They they either feel it is ok to do this or that they have such fragile self-image that the potentail of a loss in a video game is enough to trigger them... No tto mention that it is society that teach them that violence is good responce. #toxicmasculinity and all that. 

And before someone says.. "but i am X and have never done Y" I am not alcoholic nor am i a compulsive gambler... does not mean that others do not suffer from these problems. So you might have been raised in that hole next to Bane and come out a boy scout, it is apparent that not everyone was as lucky. 

Still vote to have the fucker disolved in acid. 

laserit

This is a famous one that happened in my neck of the woods.

This was an execution.

Allerleirauh

TheScavenger said:

shaddy33 said:

TheScavenger said:

This goes to show, violent video games lead to violent actions. But porn and porn games have never led to murder.

Looking at a nude body has never messed up someones mind so much where they will commit murder, like people who are really young and play very violent games and their brains grow into thinking violence is okay. 

I remember seeing a movie years ago, and a family had their young kids (dunno exact age, looked like elementary kids) and they were laughing and clapping during the scenes where heads and body parts were being chopped off with blood everywhere. But then a boob popped out, they made a loud gasp sound and walked out of the theater with the kids. As they walked out I shouted at them and laughed at how hypocritical they were.

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

Are you fucking serious?

I have never seen an article where someone watched porn and then walked out of his house and gunned people down. There has never been a case where they've gone down and commited murder (either through themselves or swatting) just because they saw a boob. 

I have however seen MANY articles where someone has played very violent games, gone out and shot a bunch of people. Lots of articles. I'm sure a google search would find a whole bunch since its kinda a common occurence, especially if the person started playing violent games at a really early age. A boob however has never made someone go out and go on a killing rampage or swatting someone.

This is a WTF comment if I have ever seen one. First of all, you are comparing violent games with violent crimes and then comparing a pornographic game with violent crimes.

You claim that pornographic game does not lead to violent crimes, but you never once mentioned sexual assault is a result of a pornographic game.
If you ever read anything about the serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy, he claims that looking at pornography, particularly necrophiliac pornography as a youth, contributed to the crimes that he committed.

Whether you believe that or not, to say a violent game causes violent crimes, but a pornographic game does nothing to a developing mind is ludicrous. It seems like you are justifying your own sick habit.

TalulaRose

US policeman shoots unarmed civilian and kills him. Sadly this isn't surprising. More common place than anything else.

TheScavenger

Allerleirauh said:

TheScavenger said:

shaddy33 said:

TheScavenger said:

This goes to show, violent video games lead to violent actions. But porn and porn games have never led to murder.

Looking at a nude body has never messed up someones mind so much where they will commit murder, like people who are really young and play very violent games and their brains grow into thinking violence is okay. 

I remember seeing a movie years ago, and a family had their young kids (dunno exact age, looked like elementary kids) and they were laughing and clapping during the scenes where heads and body parts were being chopped off with blood everywhere. But then a boob popped out, they made a loud gasp sound and walked out of the theater with the kids. As they walked out I shouted at them and laughed at how hypocritical they were.

But violent video games are even worse for kids because they are actually commiting violent actions through the games. Yet, the kid can see heads being blown up with blood everywhere...but...OH NO A BOOB

Are you fucking serious?

I have never seen an article where someone watched porn and then walked out of his house and gunned people down. There has never been a case where they've gone down and commited murder (either through themselves or swatting) just because they saw a boob. 

I have however seen MANY articles where someone has played very violent games, gone out and shot a bunch of people. Lots of articles. I'm sure a google search would find a whole bunch since its kinda a common occurence, especially if the person started playing violent games at a really early age. A boob however has never made someone go out and go on a killing rampage or swatting someone.

This is a WTF comment if I have ever seen one. First of all, you are comparing violent games with violent crimes and then comparing a pornographic game with violent crimes. You claim that pornographic game does not lead to violent crimes, but you never once mentioned sexual assault is a result of a pornographic game. If you ever read anything about the serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy, he claims that looking at pornography, particularly necrophiliac pornography as a youth, contributed to the crimes that he committed. Whether you believe that or not, to say a violent game causes violent crimes, but a pornographic game does nothing to a developing mind is ludicrous. It seems like you are justifying your own sick habit.

I was talking about murder or acts that lead to injury or/and death (in the case of this article). As I said, I have yet to see an article where someone saw a boob and then walked into a mall or a movie theater and shot a bunch of people. I have however seen news articles where violent games have been the cause of the person commiting an act of violence. Or in this case, swatting an innocent person.

tawess

Well... More guns in the hands of civilians combined with a strong culture of "home defence" combined with a narrative of might making right.... 

Yeah... i have no idea of where the image that the US have more shootings than other places could come from. 

But you are probably right in the regards that numbers are slanted to tell a story that fits said narrative. 


That does not lessen the fact that every citizen killed by police is a monumental failure... Innocent ones twice so.