Why mention Diablo, nobody is saying Diablo is an MMO? Relax.
In Destiny, you do share the same world space. Smaller instance but its the same thing. Again you don't call a smaller salad a pizza. It's still a salad just like a larger salad.
Because if we are going to say Destiny is an MMO then Diablo is too. Diablo has hundreds and thousands of people playing it at the same time. They can play together. It's just that if more than a few people want to inhabit the same instance they need to be in the same party. Isn't that essentially Destiny as well? What difference is there between Destiny and Diablo that would make you say Destiny is an MMO but Diablo is not?
Easy.
In Diablo, you play with a max of ONLY 3 other people at a time in the group leaders instance. there are NO OTHER PLAYERS in the world space outside of your party. In Diablo when you leave the party you are sent back to your own instance. Solo. It's not an MMO or even a MOG its a Co-Op game like Borderlands.
In Destiny, you group up with someone in the open world your group isn't the only group out there. That's it, that's the difference. You leave the group you are still in the world space with others and can hop in another group as your first team runs over the hill to join a public event
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
I don't need to repeat myself again about the features.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Why mention Diablo, nobody is saying Diablo is an MMO? Relax.
In Destiny, you do share the same world space. Smaller instance but its the same thing. Again you don't call a smaller salad a pizza. It's still a salad just like a larger salad.
Because if we are going to say Destiny is an MMO then Diablo is too. Diablo has hundreds and thousands of people playing it at the same time. They can play together. It's just that if more than a few people want to inhabit the same instance they need to be in the same party. Isn't that essentially Destiny as well? What difference is there between Destiny and Diablo that would make you say Destiny is an MMO but Diablo is not?
Easy.
In Diablo, you play with a max of ONLY 3 other people at a time in the group leaders instance. there are NO OTHER PLAYERS in the world space outside of your party. In Diablo when you leave the party you are sent back to your own instance. Solo. It's not an MMO or even a MOG its a Co-Op game like Borderlands.
In Destiny, you group up with someone in the open world your group isn't the only group out there. That's it, that's the difference. You leave the group you are still in the world space with others and can hop in another group as your first team runs over the hill to join a public event
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
I don't need to repeat myself again about the features.
what you have to do is remove all aspects of your argument regarding destiny that can also be applied to something like COD.
you have to focus on what is unquiely different about Destiny from and MMo AND from COD that makes its so radcially different that it confuses what an MMO is
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
multiplayer games have existed for about 27 years. Doom, Quake, various server based shooters and then Neverwinter nights 1 and 2.
For 27 years we have all implictly understood the difference between an MMO and me hosting a server on Neverwinter Nights in 2004.
So why now the confusion? why now after 27 years of clarity?
Show me a game that allows 1000s of people per instance with the "MMO" features and there's your Massively. Until then it's just a buzzword from the early 2ks attached to a shit ton of games and nostalgic people.
LotRO - most I've seen was around 2,500 people in the same virtual environment back in vanilla.
WAR - definitely topped 1000 in the same virtual environment in the first 3 months on my server
SWG - can't say for definite as I didn't pay that close attention to these sorts of things when I played it, but definitely seen 500+ on a single planet.
Planetside 2 - again, can't say for definite as wasn't paying that close attention and didn't play it for long, but I was definitely in some very large scale fights whilst other large scale fights were happening in the same virtual environment.
Those are some games that definitely, 100% meet my definition of being massively multiplayer online games that I have personally witnessed. I'm pretty sure WoW qualifies as well, but I can't say for certain as I didn't play it so don't know first hand whether the zones were seamless or not. SWTOR, on the other hand, definitely does not quality due to the low player cap per instance plus having to go through a loading screen between zones.
Finally, again, I want to point out that you are getting hung up on the wrong part of the terminology. In the bit I quoted, you again say "MMO features" - there are no such things. MMO only refers to how many people can play the game together. All the other features - raids, dungeons, loot etc - are attached to the G part of the acronym, you know, the game features.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
@SEANMCAD please don't quote me if you're going to ask me the same question that I took time to fully answer and explain to you. I just answered you and you asked me again while quoting the answer.
but you didnt address my observation.
Literally less than 2 years ago there was ZERO confusion. ZERO difference in the games as it is now AND ZERO confusion. what magically happened in just 24 months that make us confused as to if COD might or might not be an MMO?
lmaooooo Nobody is asking if Call of Duty is an MMO! I really laughed thank you.
ok, so humans start questioning the status quo when new information or products are introduced into society. Destiny 1 in 2014 was that new information and product. Think about the state of Online gaming before that point. The only thing to compare it to was PS2 which again while hosting a shit ton of players it lacked the "MMO Features" that Destiny had. So that's why in 2018 we are at this point. People know the difference between COD and WoW but Destiny and WoW is a far closer and blurred topic.
It's simple. New information was presented. No shooter before Destiny was like it or we would be comparing that game to Destiny and not World Of Warcraft. There is an obvious reason for the comparisons.
so you now see my question (I think).
To me Destiny is NOT radically different from COD. what is radically different to the point that its honestly causing confusion? i mean lets me honest here....
because your characters development is persistent that is what makes the entire thing confusing? I am not buying that for a second
You want Destiny to be COD so bad idk why but that's you. Destiny and COD are so far from each other its not even funny. The only thing they have in common is guns (not even then), anybody who says they are similar either hasn't played both Destiny or COD and are looking for something to debate.
COD is an FPS single player game with a lobby based multiplayer map mode where there is little to no customization or progression. 2 big things in MMOs and present in Destiny.
There are a ton of other differences but I will stop there.
Yes actually, Destiny is radically different from COD. it has far more in common with WoW, so much so that its uncanny considering its base is FPS. it's undeniable
I am not trying to get into a pissing contest over Destiny I am saying I very seriously do not think the difference is SO WIDE...SO RADICAL..SO REVOLUTIONARY that it now causes massive widespread confusion as to what is or is not an MMO.
In relation to an MMO what specifically is the difference between Destiny and COD? that the world is persistent? thats it? that is the entire reason we are having a huge amount of confusion as to what an MMO is? 27 years of implict clear understanding totally shattered because of persistent character? really?
that is why we do not understand the difference between The Crew 2 and WoW? really?
Dude what? I'm sure you can read. Nobody is confused about a game like The Crew and WoW. You think you are smart but you are starting to look stupid because nothing you are saying is cogent. You keep trying Co-OP game vs MMO game but that not the conversation. The Debate is Traditional MMO vs Non-traditional MMO.
I'm unsure of why people like yourself keep throwing out Co-Op games vs WoW as if that's what the debate is about. Stop insulting people's intelligence. Everyone knows the difference between a Co-Op game and an MMO.
Destiny is blurring the lines between Traditional MMORPG and MOFPS. Not Co-Op games.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
@SEANMCAD please don't quote me if you're going to ask me the same question that I took time to fully answer and explain to you. I just answered you and you asked me again while quoting the answer.
but you didnt address my observation.
Literally less than 2 years ago there was ZERO confusion. ZERO difference in the games as it is now AND ZERO confusion. what magically happened in just 24 months that make us confused as to if COD might or might not be an MMO?
lmaooooo Nobody is asking if Call of Duty is an MMO! I really laughed thank you.
You are.
If you are saying that an online multiplayer game with a player cap of 16 counts as being massively multiplayer, then all online multiplayer games with a player cap of 16 or more must also be massively multiplayer.
Therefore, you are saying that CoD, Battlefield, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament etc are all also MMOs.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Let me provide a different example that I have more tactile experience with.
In 2002 I played Neverwinter Nights 1. I would often play on a popular server that had around 50-100 people on it all the time. Anytime I logged in I was sure to know serveral people online I could group up with. My character was persistent. we would go out and fight mobs together, talk on TeamSpeak, do crafting, come back the next day and all my character progress was in tact. I could even buy a house if I wanted to.
but it was not an MMO. It felt like one, the experience was the same but there was no industry confusion that this was not an MMO.
so now all of the sudden out of the blue the same setup that existed in 2002 that I experience is now confusing.
The industry is fucking with you guys
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
@SEANMCAD please don't quote me if you're going to ask me the same question that I took time to fully answer and explain to you. I just answered you and you asked me again while quoting the answer.
but you didnt address my observation.
Literally less than 2 years ago there was ZERO confusion. ZERO difference in the games as it is now AND ZERO confusion. what magically happened in just 24 months that make us confused as to if COD might or might not be an MMO?
lmaooooo Nobody is asking if Call of Duty is an MMO! I really laughed thank you.
You are.
If you are saying that an online multiplayer game with a player cap of 16 counts as being massively multiplayer, then all online multiplayer games with a player cap of 16 or more must also be massively multiplayer.
Therefore, you are saying that CoD, Battlefield, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament etc are all also MMOs.
No, the hell I'm not, stop putting words in my mouth. I said something very specific. I unlike you obviously, I can see the difference between Destiny and COD. I never once said any game with 16 player count is massively multiplayer. I never said that shit, stop putting words in my mouth to fit your narrative. Go back and read what I wrote.
Destiny is a MOG (I said several times drop Massively the word means nothing in context). Destiny is a Multiplayer Online Game. It has a lot in common with WoW.
COD, BF, Q3 UT are all LOBBY BASED FPS games. How hard is that for you to get?
Destiny is the Grandchild of those Games AND games like WoW, and EQ.
You don't have to like it because it's not "Massively" enough for you, but its true. I didn't once claim that ALL GAMES with 16 player count is MMO.. stop making shit up for your narrative.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Let me provide a different example that I have more tactile experience with.
In 2002 I played Neverwinter Nights 1. I would often play on a popular server that had around 50-100 people on it all the time. Anytime I logged in I was sure to know serveral people online I could group up with. My character was persistent. we would go out and fight mobs together, talk on TeamSpeak, do crafting, come back the next day and all my character progress was in tact. I could even buy a house if I wanted to.
but it was not an MMO. It felt like one, the experience was the same but there was no industry confusion that this was not an MMO.
so now all of the sudden out of the blue the same setup that existed in 2002 that I experience is now confusing.
The industry is fucking with you guys
No actually the Industry is changing and its fucking with you.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Its called MARKETING! Do you not think the mmo crowd isnt ONE of the demos they want to reach? they for sure wanted to reach that crowd or that would not have made a game with things in them called fucking "RAIDS" ffs.. Jesus. Use your brain. its marketing and its damn good marketing but marketing nonetheless. They don't need to say "hey this is a mmo".. all they need to do is put "Raids, Heroics, Dungeons, Loot, RPG like Progression" and maybe just maybe the MMO people will see it and also come play it. But let's be clear we want that console crowd first since that's the biggest market!
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
@SEANMCAD please don't quote me if you're going to ask me the same question that I took time to fully answer and explain to you. I just answered you and you asked me again while quoting the answer.
but you didnt address my observation.
Literally less than 2 years ago there was ZERO confusion. ZERO difference in the games as it is now AND ZERO confusion. what magically happened in just 24 months that make us confused as to if COD might or might not be an MMO?
lmaooooo Nobody is asking if Call of Duty is an MMO! I really laughed thank you.
You are.
If you are saying that an online multiplayer game with a player cap of 16 counts as being massively multiplayer, then all online multiplayer games with a player cap of 16 or more must also be massively multiplayer.
Therefore, you are saying that CoD, Battlefield, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament etc are all also MMOs.
No, the hell I'm not, stop putting words in my mouth. I said something very specific. I unlike you obviously, I can see the difference between Destiny and COD. I never once said any game with 16 player count is massively multiplayer. I never said that shit, stop putting words in my mouth to fit your narrative. Go back and read what I wrote.
Destiny is a MOG (I said several times drop Massively the word means nothing in context). Destiny is a Multiplayer Online Game. It has a lot in common with WoW.
COD, BF, Q3 UT are all LOBBY BASED FPS games. How hard is that for you to get?
Destiny is the Grandchild of those Games AND games like WoW, and EQ.
You don't have to like it because it's not "Massively" enough for you, but its true. I didn't once claim that ALL GAMES with 16 player count is MMO.. stop making shit up for your narrative.
So, you are denying that Call of Duty is a multiplayer online game?!
You really need to understand the words first, before then applying extra meaning to them.
Multiplayer Online
These are technical terms. Can you play with more than one other person? Can you do it online? It has absolutely zero to do with features! Once you get that fundamental understanding sorted out, then you can start classifying games that meet those criteria into their own genres, based on the features they offer.
So, WoW, Destiny, CoD, Quake 3, Battlefield, LoL, Dota, Overwatch, Diablo 3, Battlefront, Hearthstone.....these are all multiplayer online games, even though the features are vastly different to one another.
So, from the top level grouping of MOG, then you can start defining sub-genres. You can replace the "G" with other words to define further sub-genres.
I've created a game where players battle each other in an online arena. So, instead of MOG, I'm going to call it a MOBA.
Instead of MOG, you might call it an MOFPS, to indicate that it's an multiplayer online shooter.
That might not be enough, so lets split MOFPS into lobby based MOFPS (to cover CoD, Battlefield etc) and open world MOFPS (to cover Destiny and The Division and, I'm assuming, Anthem).
Maybe it's not a shooter, maybe it's an RPG, so instead of MOFPS, lets call it an MORPG (to cover WoW, Diablo 3 etc).
But wait, that's not enough. My game supports a massive amount of people in the same environment so I want to differentiate myself from Diablo 3. So, I'm going to add "Massively" to the start, ending up with MMORPG.
Thats still not enough! I've just created a game with a different combat mechanic, it's more action based. Lets add that in too: MMOARPG.
The point I'm trying to make, again, is that you are trying to associate technical terms (multiplayer online) to genre features and that is definitely wrong. When you fail to understand the fundamental words and definitions you will always result in spurious arguments. You simply can't take words that already have extremely well defined meanings (like multiplayer online game) and then randomly change that meaning to something entirely different.
If you want to invent new terminology for defining genres of online games, that's fine. Defining genres is extremely difficult and the definitions we have now aren't great, but taking an old, well understood term (MOG) and twisting it into something new won't work.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Its called MARKETING! Do you not think the mmo crowd isnt ONE of the demos they want to reach? they for sure wanted to reach that crowd or that would not have made a game with things in them called fucking "RAIDS" ffs.. Jesus. Use your brain. its marketing and its damn good marketing but marketing nonetheless. They don't need to say "hey this is a mmo".. all they need to do is put "Raids, Heroics, Dungeons, Loot, RPG like Progression" and maybe just maybe the MMO people will see it and also come play it. But let's be clear we want that console crowd first since that's the biggest market!
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
but from a 'marketing' standpoint you contradicted yourself.
if the MMO market is dying the last thing you want to do is to go out of your way to try and convince people that your game is an MMO.
First you say one doesnt want to call it an MMO because MMO is dying then you say one wants to call it an MMO.
well which is it?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Based on the trend, the Future of MMO is going to be on the console. Look at whats happening. So many MMOs getting console ports, new ones being developed for console, games having MMO features on the console. We will look back in history one day and say Destiny 1 was the catalyst for all of that. Our grandchildren won't play MMOs on PC. MMO on PC is dead far as we know it. Mobile and Console is the way forward for the Genre. I'm not mad at it as long as they are good games.
I let EQ, SWG, WoW, DAoC etc go long ago. Time to move on.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Its called MARKETING! Do you not think the mmo crowd isnt ONE of the demos they want to reach? they for sure wanted to reach that crowd or that would not have made a game with things in them called fucking "RAIDS" ffs.. Jesus. Use your brain. its marketing and its damn good marketing but marketing nonetheless. They don't need to say "hey this is a mmo".. all they need to do is put "Raids, Heroics, Dungeons, Loot, RPG like Progression" and maybe just maybe the MMO people will see it and also come play it. But let's be clear we want that console crowd first since that's the biggest market!
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
They won't call it an MMO because it's not an MMO.....because it doesn't support a massive number of players in the same virtual environment.....the same reason Bungie don't call Destiny an MMO, because it's not......the same reason that Blizzard doesn't call Diablo 3 an MMO......the same reason Gearbox doesn't call Borderlands an MMO.......
Developers understand the terminology. They know what it means. They get in trouble for false advertising when they call their game something that it isn't.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Based on the trend, the Future of MMO is going to be on the console. Look at whats happening. So many MMOs getting console ports, new ones being developed for console, games having MMO features on the console. We will look back in history one day and say Destiny 1 was the catalyst for all of that. Our grandchildren won't play MMOs on PC. MMO on PC is dead far as we know it. Mobile and Console is the way forward for the Genre. I'm not mad at it as long as they are good games.
I let EQ, SWG, WoW, DAoC etc go long ago. Time to move on.
there is an old saying 'its easier to scam people then to convince them they are being scammed'
you guys are being scammed. your being manipulated by the market for reasons that to me are very clear. If they can get you to think a game similar to The Crew is an MMO they can make you think its a massive ultra hyper hype technology juggernaut that they have taken on and that brining it to a console is the next big thing sense the cell phone.
but in reality its just a persistent shooter
THAT is where the marketing is
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Its called MARKETING! Do you not think the mmo crowd isnt ONE of the demos they want to reach? they for sure wanted to reach that crowd or that would not have made a game with things in them called fucking "RAIDS" ffs.. Jesus. Use your brain. its marketing and its damn good marketing but marketing nonetheless. They don't need to say "hey this is a mmo".. all they need to do is put "Raids, Heroics, Dungeons, Loot, RPG like Progression" and maybe just maybe the MMO people will see it and also come play it. But let's be clear we want that console crowd first since that's the biggest market!
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
but from a 'marketing' standpoint you contradicted yourself.
if the MMO market is dying the last thing you want to do is to go out of your way to try and convince people that your game is an MMO.
First you say one doesnt want to call it an MMO because MMO is dying then you say one wants to call it an MMO.
well which is it?
I never said they want to call it MMO. You do this a lot, say things nobody said. I didnt say that.
Please quote where I said that. There is no contradiction. I said they don't want to call it MMO because the Genre is dead, but Marketing wise they want to target the people who still play games like WoW because they added those exact same features in the game. WoW still has millions of users monthly. Bungie knew what they were doing when they put Raids and Heroics in the game. They couldve named those things anything else in the world but they called them Raids and Heroics. How is that NOT targeting the MMO crowd? I already told you.
You dont publicly say MMO if your Bungie because it has a bad taste with it. Its a dying genre. But you do put those things in your shared space game because its addictive to gamers and it can pull in a market of people who otherwise would not play a shooter like myself.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Its called MARKETING! Do you not think the mmo crowd isnt ONE of the demos they want to reach? they for sure wanted to reach that crowd or that would not have made a game with things in them called fucking "RAIDS" ffs.. Jesus. Use your brain. its marketing and its damn good marketing but marketing nonetheless. They don't need to say "hey this is a mmo".. all they need to do is put "Raids, Heroics, Dungeons, Loot, RPG like Progression" and maybe just maybe the MMO people will see it and also come play it. But let's be clear we want that console crowd first since that's the biggest market!
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
They won't call it an MMO because it's not an MMO.....because it doesn't support a massive number of players in the same virtual environment.....the same reason Bungie don't call Destiny an MMO, because it's not......the same reason that Blizzard doesn't call Diablo 3 an MMO......the same reason Gearbox doesn't call Borderlands an MMO.......
Developers understand the terminology. They know what it means. They get in trouble for false advertising when they call their game something that it isn't.
smh you will figure it out on your own. You have The same arguments about massive numbers being the defining factor in an MMO. I keep repeating myself. This is why I say get rid of the term "Massive" it's an old buzzword from the early 2ks that sold a shit ton of games. Those kids are now middle-aged adults who cant let the word massive go because they have seen it their whole life. "Massively," today tells you nothing that a simple "Multiplayer Online" cant tell you.
Its like if today's 12 years old grew up and wouldn't let the term Battle Royale or Survival go.
Im done. my face is turning blue.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
Guild Wars 1 also had shared spaces where you could meet other people. That still doesn't make it a MMO.
I never mentioned GW and I never said GW1 was an MMO but Destiny has more in common with WoW than it does Gw1.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
Bungie didn't blur the lines.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
... Do you know why they said it's not an MMO? Because "MMO" is a dead genre. They know it.. everyone in the industry knows it except the people with rose tinted glasses on wishing for the old days back. The people who play on Emulators are the same crowd saying Destiny is just COD.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
think that thru.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Its called MARKETING! Do you not think the mmo crowd isnt ONE of the demos they want to reach? they for sure wanted to reach that crowd or that would not have made a game with things in them called fucking "RAIDS" ffs.. Jesus. Use your brain. its marketing and its damn good marketing but marketing nonetheless. They don't need to say "hey this is a mmo".. all they need to do is put "Raids, Heroics, Dungeons, Loot, RPG like Progression" and maybe just maybe the MMO people will see it and also come play it. But let's be clear we want that console crowd first since that's the biggest market!
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
but from a 'marketing' standpoint you contradicted yourself.
if the MMO market is dying the last thing you want to do is to go out of your way to try and convince people that your game is an MMO.
First you say one doesnt want to call it an MMO because MMO is dying then you say one wants to call it an MMO.
well which is it?
I never said they want to call it MMO. You do this a lot, say things nobody said. I didnt say that.
Please quote where I said that. There is no contradiction. I said they don't want to call it MMO because the Genre is dead, but Marketing wise they want to target the people who still play games like WoW because they added those exact same features in the game. WoW still has millions of users monthly. Bungie knew what they were doing when they put Raids and Heroics in the game. They couldve named those things anything else in the world but they called them Raids and Heroics. How is that NOT targeting the MMO crowd? I already told you.
You dont publicly say MMO if your Bungie because it has a bad taste with it. Its a dying genre. But you do put those things in your shared space game because its addictive to gamers and it can pull in a market of people who otherwise would not play a shooter like myself.
that just doesnt make sense from a marketing perspective because why now? now all of the sudden the MMO market is dead and they dont want to call it an MMO but they are going to call it one so that they can get all the dead players this year but they were not intrested in doing so 2 years ago.
but one thing we do agree on, all this confusion about what is or is not an MMO is purely manufactured by marketing departments. Its never been a thing before, NwN 1 from 2002 was for all intent and purposes of today an MMO but everyone knows its not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
In 2006 Pluto was demoted from status of Planet to Dwarf Planet; the solar system has had 8 planets ever since and our lives have not been the same. The argument they made was that if what constitutes a planet is its size, and if Pluto was in fact an MMO a planet then hundreds of other celestial bodies in our system had to be labelled as MMOs *PLANETS*. Since as a species we are at what is hopefully just the beginning of our exploration of the cosmos, it stands to reason that in the future we will be able to observe other planets in other solar systems, and to avoid confusion we need a solid set of rules to operate with.
In the gaming industry there is no authority deciding what label each game can wear — unlike for the example above where the decision was taken by the scientific community — and it is ultimately just about how the developer wants to reach the players. If they think that calling their single player game with a 16 players multi-player mode Massive and that this will bring more sales, as long as they don't do it fraudulently they should be free to do so.
Of course since everyone has his own definition of what massive means in the acronym MMO, the player expecting hundreds other individuals on screen might be disappointed to find out that there are just 15 others to play with, but let's be frank, anyone who buys a game today has all the resources needed to take an informed decision about the piece of software they are about to spend money on: steam reviews, this site, other sites' review. Nobody is getting cheated and the whole debate about what is MMO and what isn't, seems to me to be more about pride: "How dare that puny little lobby game label itself massive, the game I play is massive."
In the end Pluto doesn't care what we call him, he has been the same Pluto we knew even after the demotion. In fact, I don't think he even knows it...
Comments
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
In Diablo, you play with a max of ONLY 3 other people at a time in the group leaders instance. there are NO OTHER PLAYERS in the world space outside of your party. In Diablo when you leave the party you are sent back to your own instance. Solo. It's not an MMO or even a MOG its a Co-Op game like Borderlands.
In Destiny, you group up with someone in the open world your group isn't the only group out there. That's it, that's the difference. You leave the group you are still in the world space with others and can hop in another group as your first team runs over the hill to join a public event
Destiny has shared open world spaces that I can meet random people and do dynamic events with.
I don't need to repeat myself again about the features.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
you have to focus on what is unquiely different about Destiny from and MMo AND from COD that makes its so radcially different that it confuses what an MMO is
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
WAR - definitely topped 1000 in the same virtual environment in the first 3 months on my server
SWG - can't say for definite as I didn't pay that close attention to these sorts of things when I played it, but definitely seen 500+ on a single planet.
Planetside 2 - again, can't say for definite as wasn't paying that close attention and didn't play it for long, but I was definitely in some very large scale fights whilst other large scale fights were happening in the same virtual environment.
Those are some games that definitely, 100% meet my definition of being massively multiplayer online games that I have personally witnessed. I'm pretty sure WoW qualifies as well, but I can't say for certain as I didn't play it so don't know first hand whether the zones were seamless or not. SWTOR, on the other hand, definitely does not quality due to the low player cap per instance plus having to go through a loading screen between zones.
Finally, again, I want to point out that you are getting hung up on the wrong part of the terminology. In the bit I quoted, you again say "MMO features" - there are no such things. MMO only refers to how many people can play the game together. All the other features - raids, dungeons, loot etc - are attached to the G part of the acronym, you know, the game features.
I'm unsure of why people like yourself keep throwing out Co-Op games vs WoW as if that's what the debate is about. Stop insulting people's intelligence. Everyone knows the difference between a Co-Op game and an MMO.
Destiny is blurring the lines between Traditional MMORPG and MOFPS. Not Co-Op games.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
If you are saying that an online multiplayer game with a player cap of 16 counts as being massively multiplayer, then all online multiplayer games with a player cap of 16 or more must also be massively multiplayer.
Therefore, you are saying that CoD, Battlefield, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament etc are all also MMOs.
In GW1 to what I remember because it been a while but you can only party up with people in the hubs and once you go out you are in that instance with your group only. Once you leave your group you are back in your Solo Instance. Sounds like Diablo 3 to me.
Destiny you group up with people from anywhere and join whatever instance they are in, here's the thing though, you don't go back to a solo instance if you drop group. You are just there in the open world space. You can look around and see other players running around. Even grouped up you will see other groups in the world. That sounds a lot like WoW to me. Even if it's on a smaller scale.
People keep throwing different games at me to try to fold my argument and it's not working. Destiny is what it is, I didn't make it you need to call Bungie and ask them why they blurred the lines.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
In 2002 I played Neverwinter Nights 1. I would often play on a popular server that had around 50-100 people on it all the time. Anytime I logged in I was sure to know serveral people online I could group up with. My character was persistent. we would go out and fight mobs together, talk on TeamSpeak, do crafting, come back the next day and all my character progress was in tact. I could even buy a house if I wanted to.
but it was not an MMO. It felt like one, the experience was the same but there was no industry confusion that this was not an MMO.
so now all of the sudden out of the blue the same setup that existed in 2002 that I experience is now confusing.
The industry is fucking with you guys
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Destiny is a MOG (I said several times drop Massively the word means nothing in context). Destiny is a Multiplayer Online Game. It has a lot in common with WoW.
COD, BF, Q3 UT are all LOBBY BASED FPS games. How hard is that for you to get?
Destiny is the Grandchild of those Games AND games like WoW, and EQ.
You don't have to like it because it's not "Massively" enough for you, but its true. I didn't once claim that ALL GAMES with 16 player count is MMO.. stop making shit up for your narrative.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Bungie repeatedly stated that Destiny is not an MMO. They say it every single time they get asked it.
Trust me if Destiny comes out in 2010 the same game, they are 100% for sure calling it an MMO. don't be fooled by marketing. I don't care what they say this is based on what I see and experience.
So you are saying if an orange farmer grows an orange tree, give you the orange but never calls it an orange instead he wants to say its just a "Zesty Fruit" would you say its no longer an orange? Even though you tasted oranges before, know what they look like? You would say "Welp Guess it's not an orange since the farmer didn't call it that!"
Meanwhile, a person like me eats the "Zesty Fruit" and explains why it's really just an orange with a fancy name.
smh.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
why would a company want to sell their game as an MMO if the MMO genre is dying?
why would Bungie want to have people think Destiny is an MMO?
and again, my example of neverwinter nights 1 in 2002.....pretty much exactly an MMO but we all know its not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Think. Destiny 1 had the same features as Destiny 2 only it was console only. Why the hell would they make a game with all MMO features and then only release on console? Why would they then later release that same game to PC players? THINK! They are targeting the MMO demo for a reason. They don't need to say it. They shouldn't say it tbh. MMOs are still new to people who only play on console only and calling it that may alienate them.
Also MMO is a dead Genre as far as the industry in concerned. Right now all mmos in development are being crowd funded or something close to it.
I predict the next game to cross this "Destiny" line will be Anthem. Watch mark my words it will have all the MMOs tropes and Bioware will not call it "MMO"
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
You really need to understand the words first, before then applying extra meaning to them.
Multiplayer
Online
These are technical terms. Can you play with more than one other person? Can you do it online? It has absolutely zero to do with features! Once you get that fundamental understanding sorted out, then you can start classifying games that meet those criteria into their own genres, based on the features they offer.
So, WoW, Destiny, CoD, Quake 3, Battlefield, LoL, Dota, Overwatch, Diablo 3, Battlefront, Hearthstone.....these are all multiplayer online games, even though the features are vastly different to one another.
So, from the top level grouping of MOG, then you can start defining sub-genres. You can replace the "G" with other words to define further sub-genres.
I've created a game where players battle each other in an online arena. So, instead of MOG, I'm going to call it a MOBA.
Instead of MOG, you might call it an MOFPS, to indicate that it's an multiplayer online shooter.
That might not be enough, so lets split MOFPS into lobby based MOFPS (to cover CoD, Battlefield etc) and open world MOFPS (to cover Destiny and The Division and, I'm assuming, Anthem).
Maybe it's not a shooter, maybe it's an RPG, so instead of MOFPS, lets call it an MORPG (to cover WoW, Diablo 3 etc).
But wait, that's not enough. My game supports a massive amount of people in the same environment so I want to differentiate myself from Diablo 3. So, I'm going to add "Massively" to the start, ending up with MMORPG.
Thats still not enough! I've just created a game with a different combat mechanic, it's more action based. Lets add that in too: MMOARPG.
The point I'm trying to make, again, is that you are trying to associate technical terms (multiplayer online) to genre features and that is definitely wrong. When you fail to understand the fundamental words and definitions you will always result in spurious arguments. You simply can't take words that already have extremely well defined meanings (like multiplayer online game) and then randomly change that meaning to something entirely different.
If you want to invent new terminology for defining genres of online games, that's fine. Defining genres is extremely difficult and the definitions we have now aren't great, but taking an old, well understood term (MOG) and twisting it into something new won't work.
if the MMO market is dying the last thing you want to do is to go out of your way to try and convince people that your game is an MMO.
First you say one doesnt want to call it an MMO because MMO is dying then you say one wants to call it an MMO.
well which is it?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I let EQ, SWG, WoW, DAoC etc go long ago. Time to move on.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Developers understand the terminology. They know what it means. They get in trouble for false advertising when they call their game something that it isn't.
you guys are being scammed. your being manipulated by the market for reasons that to me are very clear.
If they can get you to think a game similar to The Crew is an MMO they can make you think its a massive ultra hyper hype technology juggernaut that they have taken on and that brining it to a console is the next big thing sense the cell phone.
but in reality its just a persistent shooter
THAT is where the marketing is
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please quote where I said that. There is no contradiction. I said they don't want to call it MMO because the Genre is dead, but Marketing wise they want to target the people who still play games like WoW because they added those exact same features in the game. WoW still has millions of users monthly. Bungie knew what they were doing when they put Raids and Heroics in the game. They couldve named those things anything else in the world but they called them Raids and Heroics. How is that NOT targeting the MMO crowd? I already told you.
You dont publicly say MMO if your Bungie because it has a bad taste with it. Its a dying genre. But you do put those things in your shared space game because its addictive to gamers and it can pull in a market of people who otherwise would not play a shooter like myself.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Its like if today's 12 years old grew up and wouldn't let the term Battle Royale or Survival go.
Im done. my face is turning blue.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
but one thing we do agree on, all this confusion about what is or is not an MMO is purely manufactured by marketing departments. Its never been a thing before, NwN 1 from 2002 was for all intent and purposes of today an MMO but everyone knows its not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Since as a species we are at what is hopefully just the beginning of our exploration of the cosmos, it stands to reason that in the future we will be able to observe other planets in other solar systems, and to avoid confusion we need a solid set of rules to operate with.
In the gaming industry there is no authority deciding what label each game can wear — unlike for the example above where the decision was taken by the scientific community — and it is ultimately just about how the developer wants to reach the players.
If they think that calling their single player game with a 16 players multi-player mode Massive and that this will bring more sales, as long as they don't do it fraudulently they should be free to do so.
Of course since everyone has his own definition of what massive means in the acronym MMO, the player expecting hundreds other individuals on screen might be disappointed to find out that there are just 15 others to play with, but let's be frank, anyone who buys a game today has all the resources needed to take an informed decision about the piece of software they are about to spend money on: steam reviews, this site, other sites' review. Nobody is getting cheated and the whole debate about what is MMO and what isn't, seems to me to be more about pride: "How dare that puny little lobby game label itself massive, the game I play is massive."
In the end Pluto doesn't care what we call him, he has been the same Pluto we knew even after the demotion. In fact, I don't think he even knows it...