this freaking game was touted and hyped so hardcore on this site. they had pictures etc, and ppl were just going nuts over it. nonstop articles of pictures & drawings for the last couple of years, then i guess this site wised up and stopped posting wall to wall chronicles of elyria hype articles.
i'm sure the game will be fine, but im happy the hype train ended.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
You aren't ordering a game when you back something through crowdfunding. No product exists yet at all, only the idea that one will get developed if enough people support it. All the perks and final bonuses from the packages are nothing more than incentives. I don't understand people who back crowdfunding campaigns and then try to get refunds, what's the point? If you're of the opinion your investment failed and is beyond salvaging then move on. You can't go to a company and request a refund after the stock you invested in tanks.
And with crowdfunding if you fail to deliver then you need to either give refunds, start posting your books online to show backers you spent the money wisely or come up with a plan on how you are going to deliver something that is close to what you promised all those people that gave you money.
Show me where there are guarantees in any Kickstarter? There aren't any because there can't be. To Kickstart is to help get an idea into production. Some will succeed, some will fail, it is the way of business. If you don't believe in the product don't donate to kickstart it.
I am not sure why anyone would financially support something that states there is no refund policy just to cry later that they can't get a refund. I mean really? Talk about feeling entitled.
You do know I pulled that right from Kickstarters TOS but reworded it right? Kickstarter clearly states either a product must be delivered or you have to show how you spent the money and backers are very much free to sue the shit out of you if you fail to do any of that to their satisfaction.
And the product is still being worked on isn't it? Therefore there was nothing fraudulent that took place. This, of course, is assuming we are still talking about CoE.
I would assume it’s still being worked on but still means you are entitled to a refund on non delivery
If you truly believe this, talk to the guy in this thread complaining about not being able to get a refund. Tell him to send a complaint to the FTC, and the FTC will decide to move forward with a lawsuit. You actually can't sue under this law, the FTC has to do it themselves. Maybe he can be the first one!
I'll tell you this much, from what I've been reading, the mail or telephone order merchandise rule, does not apply to donations. ANd a pledge by legal definition is a promised donation. The language here is very important, as proven by the previous example of the guy who chose to use the term "ordering".
Again though dozens of games who have been on kickstarter, almost all of them missing their ETA on kickstarter. Many of these games having no refund policies. Each one with some disgruntled backers that want their money back, and yet not a single successful lawsuit. I find it hard to believe none of these people have filed complaints with the FTC, and tried to get their money back.
Again though dozens of games who have been on kickstarter, almost all of them missing their ETA on kickstarter. Many of these games having no refund policies. Each one with some disgruntled backers that want their money back, and yet not a single successful lawsuit. I find it hard to believe none of these people have filed complaints with the FTC, and tried to get their money back.
Starcitizen...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again though dozens of games who have been on kickstarter, almost all of them missing their ETA on kickstarter. Many of these games having no refund policies. Each one with some disgruntled backers that want their money back, and yet not a single successful lawsuit. I find it hard to believe none of these people have filed complaints with the FTC, and tried to get their money back.
This is a good point, because, the words here are important.
If they said they guaranteed the game, then they need to deliver.
If they said they would do their best to make it, then success or failure, as long as they tried their best they fulfill their obligations.
Just saying.. the wording is very important, and I believe if someone is entitled to a refund, they should get it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Again though dozens of games who have been on kickstarter, almost all of them missing their ETA on kickstarter. Many of these games having no refund policies. Each one with some disgruntled backers that want their money back, and yet not a single successful lawsuit. I find it hard to believe none of these people have filed complaints with the FTC, and tried to get their money back.
Starcitizen...
He will ignore that or shift the goalposts like he did with my examples
Again though dozens of games who have been on kickstarter, almost all of them missing their ETA on kickstarter. Many of these games having no refund policies. Each one with some disgruntled backers that want their money back, and yet not a single successful lawsuit. I find it hard to believe none of these people have filed complaints with the FTC, and tried to get their money back.
Again though dozens of games who have been on kickstarter, almost all of them missing their ETA on kickstarter. Many of these games having no refund policies. Each one with some disgruntled backers that want their money back, and yet not a single successful lawsuit. I find it hard to believe none of these people have filed complaints with the FTC, and tried to get their money back.
Starcitizen...
He will ignore that or shift the goalposts like he did with my examples
I haven't ignored anything, stop getting butt hurt. There are people in this thread who have agreed with me on this, who have 0 interest in CoE, and think it'll be a failure.
The only things I've been able to find, is one guy who is still in the middle of a lawsuit, and another guy who Star Citizen decided to refund, but still claimed "that they were in the legal right". SO basically they just didn't want to deal with him anymore.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Except it does massively. We've already been over this with a different article.
Judge Clark "That document is important in my view for this reason: it says 'this order'. Not 'this pledge....'"
To say the language doesn't matter to courts.... I mean come on man, you can't actually think that.
I totally agree that if the company misleads their investors. I just don't think CoE has done anything to mislead them. Now the article you (or someone) showed that had the guy who told his backers that he had hired artist and he didn't, and spent the money on his own personal needs. That to me is misleading investors. That is a provable lie. You can't prove to me that Jeromy didn't know the game couldn't come out in December 2017. You need proof that he blatantly lied.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
It's quite obvious where you're going with this, and it's been tried before. To counter:
Name me one MMORPG project in the world that was completed in two years. Name me one that went from inception to a full-featured beta test in two years, even. Don't worry; I'll wait.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
Are you looking for a job? Send me your resume.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
It's quite obvious where you're going with this, and it's been tried before. To counter:
Name me one MMORPG project in the world that was completed in two years. Name me one that went from inception to a full-featured beta test in two years, even. Don't worry; I'll wait.
Have you ever heard of an "Engineers Estimate" ?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
Are you looking for a job? Send me your resume.
Well, when I sell the company and retire, I'll look you up.. you might be employed by then,
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
Are you looking for a job? Send me your resume.
Well, when I sell the company and retire, I'll look you up.. you might be employed by then,
You’ve been trying to pick a fight since you “joined “. The rest of us have moved past the silly insult phase. Come join us in post-kumbiya discussion. Ashy and I weren’t the best of buds. We don’t agree on much, but I think we are having some good discussions. Don’t be stubborn. Let your anger go. Come join us.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Which the date, by the kickstarter TOS, is not a guaranteed date... As shown here...
“The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s estimate. The date listed on each reward is the creator’s estimate of when they will provide the reward — not a guarantee to fulfill by that date. The schedule may change as the creator works on the project.”
And, no I think there is a 0% chance that you could use "market research" to file a claim against them. You would honestly need proof that they, themselves knew there was no possibility of them releasing the game on time. THey would say, "We believed a new tech called spatial OS would allow us to create our game, extremely quickly, and we underestimated the time it would take to hire a competent staff". THey would point to the multiple times they've said this.
And yet again you completely miss the point. The point is, contrary to what some would have you believe when defending these crowdfunded MMORPGs, the pledge or donation moniker matters little to the courts, they apply the same sort of scrutiny they would any other business: if you misrepresent or mislead the customer, you can be liable for refunding them, through lawsuit if needed.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
Yet we can't seem to find many, if any actual court decisions or laws governing crowd funded efforts, particularly with regards to clear policies of "no refunds" or "deposits."
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
See screenshots from D,eatherus which clearly use word Purchase. Not donation.
Yes.. but you would have to prove you mislead them.. not that you made a mistake.
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
No. The point is that if it's a purchase and not a donation that it should fall under the FCC rules which I posted. The company referring to it as a purchase is important. As Kyleran has stated "precision in terminology is of key importance". IMHO if it is a purchase then the FCC rules apply which means no open ended delivery dates. If a date is not given it defaults to 30 days. If a date is given and not reached, refunds MUST be given. Heck, it says the consumer doesn't even have to ask for them... that the default is that the company must refund unless explicitly told otherwise.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
Do you work?
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
Are you looking for a job? Send me your resume.
Well, when I sell the company and retire, I'll look you up.. you might be employed by then,
You’ve been trying to pick a fight since you “joined “. The rest of us have moved past the silly insult phase. Come join us in post-kumbiya discussion. Ashy and I weren’t the best of buds. We don’t agree on much, but I think we are having some good discussions. Don’t be stubborn. Let your anger go. Come join us.
When I joined.. you all accused me of being someone else..so that is all on you.. you and your fellow harbinger are not, or were you ever the victims in this exchange..
I said it was an honest question if you worked on projects and had to deal with planning them.
Instead of simply answering the question, you chose to be an ass about it.. that too is on you.
Now if you want to "get along" how about you simply answer the question, or the question I asked MadFrenchie.
You are in control of this, you can be an ass, or be civil.. that your choice.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The fact that this is still going is just hilarious.
Best thread ever. I've never devoted as much effort towards anything as some people here devote towards CoE's failure. Simply amazing. Such devotion should be recognized.
/popcorn.
I'm wondering if there Is some sort of ex employee or ex gf/bf type of deal. Seems faaar too much effort/energy for something this trivial.
Comments
i'm sure the game will be fine, but im happy the hype train ended.
I'll tell you this much, from what I've been reading, the mail or telephone order merchandise rule, does not apply to donations. ANd a pledge by legal definition is a promised donation. The language here is very important, as proven by the previous example of the guy who chose to use the term "ordering".
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If they said they guaranteed the game, then they need to deliver.
If they said they would do their best to make it, then success or failure, as long as they tried their best they fulfill their obligations.
Just saying.. the wording is very important, and I believe if someone is entitled to a refund, they should get it.
Crowdfunding isn't a charitable donation. It's a money exchange for a known return, one that's listed at the time the money changes hands. If the seller did something that misleads the customer into purchasing, the law will not throw its hands up and go "oh well, you donated!"
http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2018/02/01/zx-spectrum-vega-plus-backer-wins-refund-in-court
Judge Clark "That document is important in my view for this reason: it says 'this order'. Not 'this pledge....'"
To say the language doesn't matter to courts.... I mean come on man, you can't actually think that.
I totally agree that if the company misleads their investors. I just don't think CoE has done anything to mislead them. Now the article you (or someone) showed that had the guy who told his backers that he had hired artist and he didn't, and spent the money on his own personal needs. That to me is misleading investors. That is a provable lie. You can't prove to me that Jeromy didn't know the game couldn't come out in December 2017. You need proof that he blatantly lied.
As mentioned before, precision in terminology is of key importance as shown in the one example provided, the judge found for the plaintiff as it was on "order' and not a donation.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
See if I am going to sell you a clock, and say "Yah I can make you the clock in 3 days", and then on day 2, I drop the damn thing, and now need to order new parts and all kinds of other problems , so I say "due to unfortunate circumstances, delivery will be delayed for 10 days" I am not misleading you.
If the delivery truck then sends me the wrong or parts.. and I get delayed again because of that.. and tell you this.. again.. I am not misleading you.
Now, realistically, you might want a refund at this point, because you don't want to wait for the clock. I respect that.
But... under no circumstance did I mislead you or falsely advertised my product.. things happened that delayed production, that kind of stuff happens in real life.
Edit: Also, remember the estimated delivery date. Was it misleading? If you are saying that you always knew it was unrealistic then you answered your own question. When people questioned the validity of the date it was vigorously defended. Now 18 months turns to 42 or so. Whether you personally believe ill intent or not, I don't think it can be disputed that there could be a case about that being misleading.
Again though... as far as I know nobody in this thread is considering a refund. If you are... speak up! If not, let's put it to bed for a few weeks. Trust me, you will all have a chance to say the same thing a few more times in a few weeks.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is an honest question, but do you do any project work at all?
Name me one MMORPG project in the world that was completed in two years. Name me one that went from inception to a full-featured beta test in two years, even. Don't worry; I'll wait.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I said it was an honest question if you worked on projects and had to deal with planning them.
Instead of simply answering the question, you chose to be an ass about it.. that too is on you.
Now if you want to "get along" how about you simply answer the question, or the question I asked MadFrenchie.
You are in control of this, you can be an ass, or be civil.. that your choice.
I'm wondering if there Is some sort of ex employee or ex gf/bf type of deal. Seems faaar too much effort/energy for something this trivial.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer