@Wellspring I would think that even that one should not bind someone who made a purchase on another site. Was it referenced at all in the purchase process? Doubt it. I also love that last bit that says by visiting their site you agree to be bound to the state of WA law. That’s absurd. In order to even see the TOS you’d have to visit their site. What a ridiculous claim.
I mean it’s meaningless... but just another silly example.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Was acceptance of that part of the Kickstarter? What date was that created? Was that before or after the Kickstarter? Was that shown on the Kickstarter site?
Edit: Looks like that was created/edited long after the Kickstarter. Basic comprehension skills would question its validity related to prior purchases.
actually it was in place before kickstarter
it was there when i bought my package
it was modified sometime around mid 2016 to put in stronger wording regarding conduct on the forums since there were a bunch of trolls acting out, and SBS's vision of their forums being 'we're all adults here and can handle the occasional F-bomb' didn't account for the fake negativity and toxicity that some individuals were taking great pleasure and delight in instigating
Sorry, but that's a blatant lie. Nothing about refunds was mentioned on the CoE website's TOS during the time of the KS.
See my screenshot in my post above, which was from August 29, 2016.
Again we see who is touting fake news...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Was acceptance of that part of the Kickstarter? What date was that created? Was that before or after the Kickstarter? Was that shown on the Kickstarter site?
Edit: Looks like that was created/edited long after the Kickstarter. Basic comprehension skills would question its validity related to prior purchases.
actually it was in place before kickstarter
it was there when i bought my package
it was modified sometime around mid 2016 to put in stronger wording regarding conduct on the forums since there were a bunch of trolls acting out, and SBS's vision of their forums being 'we're all adults here and can handle the occasional F-bomb' didn't account for the fake negativity and toxicity that some individuals were taking great pleasure and delight in instigating
Sorry, but that's a blatant lie. Nothing about refunds was mentioned on the CoE website's TOS during the time of the KS.
See my screenshot in my post above, which was from August 29, 2016.
Again we see who is touting fake news...
Yep. It's one thing for Dleatherus to defend Chronicles of Elyria, but now he's resorting to lying just to keep someone from getting a refund that they have a right to. That's really shameful and also brings up the question if this is really about defending Chronicles of Elyria as a project, or something far more sinister.
Was acceptance of that part of the Kickstarter? What date was that created? Was that before or after the Kickstarter? Was that shown on the Kickstarter site?
Edit: Looks like that was created/edited long after the Kickstarter. Basic comprehension skills would question its validity related to prior purchases.
actually it was in place before kickstarter
it was there when i bought my package
it was modified sometime around mid 2016 to put in stronger wording regarding conduct on the forums since there were a bunch of trolls acting out, and SBS's vision of their forums being 'we're all adults here and can handle the occasional F-bomb' didn't account for the fake negativity and toxicity that some individuals were taking great pleasure and delight in instigating
Sorry, but that's a blatant lie. Nothing about refunds was mentioned on the CoE website's TOS during the time of the KS.
See my screenshot in my post above, which was from August 29, 2016.
Again we see who is touting fake news...
Yep. It's one thing for Dleatherus to defend Chronicles of Elyria, but now he's resorting to lying just to keep someone from getting a refund that they have a right to. That's really shameful and makes one question if this is really about defending Chronicles of Elyria as a project, or something far more sinister.
I don’t know if the guy is entitled to a refund but I agree the blatant use of post dated TOS is disappointing. After hearing their stream after the layoffs I’m not surprised though.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Contracts can't circumvent the law. That's like, one of the most basic things about contracts.
The law isn't so simple to where everything comes down to "you signed it, you HAVE to go through with it".
Also, I doubt anyone cares about the ToS, if the product isn't as described, then asking for a refund (not a instant chargeback) is well within someone's measurements.
You don't have to be a lawyer to know that the ToS/Signs don't bar the seller from adhering to state/federal law. Even elementary children know this.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
What is this argument? People aren't trying to get a refund from Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't offer refunds once the goal is met because they no longer hold the money. Their services are complete and they pass the money to the creator. Who people ARE trying to get refunds from.
If there is any ToS that anyone should be held to it is the SBS one in effect at the time of final funding from Kickstarter to SBS.
Trying to get a refund from KS at this point is like trying to get a refund from a credit card processing service because the item you paid for with your credit card broke under warranty.
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Contracts can't circumvent the law. That's like, one of the most basic things about contracts.
Shhhhhh Don't ever try to introduce logic to these discussions. It's all about Faith man.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Contracts can't circumvent the law. That's like, one of the most basic things about contracts.
LOL, you would have to prove they are breaking the law then, which is litigation, being a message board warrior is not enough to win that kind of game, and what exact law are they breaking.. do you even know, or do you just assume what you think the law says and that it will somehow magically protect you from the evil contracts?
Here is a clue.. if you are stupid enough to sign something and not read it, let this be a wake up call, ignorance is not an excuse.
Expecting you have half a brain to read what you sign before you put your name on it and money into it.. is common sense.. which.. unfortunately for some of the people on this forum.. laws are based on common sense.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The law isn't so simple to where everything comes down to "you signed it, you HAVE to go through with it".
You would be very wrong... unless you are very rich.
While a contract cannot force you to do something illegal, they can in many ways limit your legal actions. You should read what a car loan limits you to, it's an eye opener, what fees you agree to pay, and what legal rights you give to the loan agency and what rights you sign away.
If you really think you can just back out of a contract because it suddenly does not agree with you.. you would be.. very.. very mistaken.
Some days you gotta grow up and realize the world is not a magical place where you win the day, leave that kind of delusional thinking for in-game stuff.
To coin the Honorable Judge that presided over one of my cases involving a phone contract, "You are liable for the rights you sign away"
It was a very "welcome to adulthood" moment, figured I'd share that with you before you get to hear the same thing from a lawyer or judge, or a collection agency.. which could be worse, depending on the situation.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Contracts can't circumvent the law. That's like, one of the most basic things about contracts.
LOL, you would have to prove they are breaking the law then, which is litigation, being a message board warrior is not enough to win that kind of game, and what exact law are they breaking.. do you even know, or do you just assume what you think the law says and that it will somehow magically protect you from the evil contracts?
That's... not what I meant.
Guess there's always someone who can't even understand the basics.
I mean... I'm just...
I'm trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion that that's what I meant and it's blowing my mind.
You know what, just nevermind. Everyone else here understands what I'm talking about so like, whatever. Arguing with someone who apparently doesn't even have a basic high school level education about how contracts work is not worth my time or brain cells.
What is this argument? People aren't trying to get a refund from Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't offer refunds once the goal is met because they no longer hold the money. Their services are complete and they pass the money to the creator. Who people ARE trying to get refunds from.
This started, because @Slapshot1188 mentioned trying to get a cashback from their credit card company, which would go through Kickstarter, which I was trying to express, that would be a very bad idea.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Contracts can't circumvent the law. That's like, one of the most basic things about contracts.
LOL, you would have to prove they are breaking the law then, which is litigation, being a message board warrior is not enough to win that kind of game, and what exact law are they breaking.. do you even know, or do you just assume what you think the law says and that it will somehow magically protect you from the evil contracts?
That's... not what I meant.
Guess there's always someone who can't even understand the basics.
We all get what you meant.. you mean "But doesn't the law protect me"
or some other foolishly naive' thought, as someone that has been through contract litigation...
The answer is.. No.
Now. with grim reality out of the way... feel free to return to your fantasy life.. and ignore what I said..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The law isn't so simple to where everything comes down to "you signed it, you HAVE to go through with it".
You would be very wrong... unless you are very rich.
While a contract cannot force you to do something illegal, they can in many ways limit your legal actions. You should read what a car loan limits you to, it's an eye opener, what fees you agree to pay, and what legal rights you give to the loan agency and what rights you sign away.
If you really think you can just back out of a contract because it suddenly does not agree with you.. you would be.. very.. very mistaken.
Some days you gotta grow up and realize the world is not a magical place where you win the day, leave that kind of delusional thinking for in-game stuff.
???
You say I'm wrong, then your second sentence agrees with me? Why are you explaining tort laws in terms of a car loan to a virtual game?
And yes you can back out of a contract, want to know why? Because, one of the reasons people CAN back out of a contract when they feel it doesn't agree with them, is because it really does not agree with them or the state.
Judges null contracts all the time, even if the contract has legal tools but applied in illegal ways, such as super high interest rates that may not be allowed because of interest caps in your respective state.
Some days you gotta grow up and realize the world is not a magical place where you win the day, leave that kind of delusional thinking for in-game stuff.
What are you talking about? Are you on that Philadelphia smack or something?
What is this argument? People aren't trying to get a refund from Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't offer refunds once the goal is met because they no longer hold the money. Their services are complete and they pass the money to the creator. Who people ARE trying to get refunds from.
This started, because @Slapshot1188 mentioned trying to get a cashback from their credit card company, which would go through Kickstarter, which I was trying to express, that would be a very bad idea.
Gotcha. Chargeback is a different animal than a refund though.
I'd try the refund route through SBS first, but if they don't accept that I would definitely do a chargeback at this point. The delivery date is long past and there has been a fundamental change in the product/service originally offered. Both, separately, are valid chargeback reasons.
The chargeback would go through KS, but they aren't likely to challenge it so much as provide information. They say as much on their terms. It's on them as to what they do next. Given the reasons above, it is VERY unlikely they will pursue one, or even a handful of individuals rather than attempt to get all that money back from the creator who caused those chargeback issues to arise.
No ToS is going to override consumer protection laws. While they may not want you to think it or have it appear as such, KS is gambling just as much as individual backers. They are taking the role as a middleman or angel investor with many shareholders.
The law is the law, so whatever SBS wrote in their ToS doesn't matter.
What DOES matter is the law. Many but not all countries' laws allow refunds if the product hasn't been delivered yet. EU in particular is that you can get a refund for up to two weeks AFTER delivery. It's actually extremely rare for a country to disallow refunds for a product that hasn't been delivered yet, and in most countries a pledge package for a profit venture counts as a presale of a product.
Technically what you're supposed to do is request your refund politely first. In Star Citizen's case, they got slapped with the FDCC going after them for denying refunds so now they have to give any refund requested. Thus when CiG of Star Citizen initially rejects the refund by giving a tl;dr letter that boils down to "You sure?" but seems much more affirmative to try to dissuade the refund, all you have to do is keep politely replying that you want a refund and you'll get it eventually. I've yet to hear a story of someone absolutely getting refused the refund.
SBS, however, has not caught the FDCC's eyes yet. So they'll probably be stupid enough to reject the refund outright. If they do, you can either go to paypal and/or your credit card company for a charge back on the refund you are legally entitled to, or keep on politely requesting your refund from SBS until you get fed up and threaten small claims court action. Either one is supposed to work, although things don't always work like they're supposed to.
The law may be the Law, and a large part of the law is You being 100% liable for any contract You sign.
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Contracts can't circumvent the law. That's like, one of the most basic things about contracts.
This is absolutely true. Contacts cannot violate the law. Especially consumer protection laws Any such contact is not valid in court.
What is this argument? People aren't trying to get a refund from Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't offer refunds once the goal is met because they no longer hold the money. Their services are complete and they pass the money to the creator. Who people ARE trying to get refunds from.
This started, because @Slapshot1188 mentioned trying to get a cashback from their credit card company, which would go through Kickstarter, which I was trying to express, that would be a very bad idea.
Gotcha. Chargeback is a different animal than a refund though.
I'd try the refund route through SBS first, but if they don't accept that I would definitely do a chargeback at this point. The delivery date is long past and there has been a fundamental change in the product/service originally offered. Both, separately, are valid chargeback reasons.
The chargeback would go through KS, but they aren't likely to challenge it so much as provide information. They say as much on their terms. It's on them as to what they do next. Given the reasons above, it is VERY unlikely they will pursue one, or even a handful of individuals rather than attempt to get all that money back from the creator who caused those chargeback issues to arise.
No ToS is going to override consumer protection laws. While they may not want you to think it or have it appear as such, KS is gambling just as much as individual backers. They are taking the role as a middleman or angel investor with many shareholders.
Kickstarter has made is clear that you are not entitled to a refund through them, and to use their service you even signed that you have fully understood and agreed to those terms. I hate to say it, but yes, at that point you are no longer entitled to a Refund from Kickstarter, and they would challenge any move to get money back from them directly (which is what a Chargeback would do) because not only do they not have your money any more, as they paid the money out to whatever plight you opted to donate to, they would pay a fine to the credit card company and deal with a negative on their credit profile, something I am going to bet they are very unwilling to do, so we can be pretty sure they would challenge any attempt by anyone made to get money back from them, and the No Refund contract that you signed with them would ensure they would win the exchange, and it would be your credit score that would suffer.
Also they are not gambling, as they do not run any risk factors, they simply are a sounding board for people with projects to ask for donations, Kickstarter does not handle any exchange of goods or services under their ToS (and you signed and agreed that you understood that as well), and they make it clear that you assume all responsibility for what you donate your money too as they do not.
If you want a refund, then bring it up with SBS, and ask, and deal with them directly, but, do not get Kickstarter involved and don't get your credit card company involved unless you bought something directly from SBS.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Kickstarter has made is clear that you are not entitled to a refund through them, and to use their service you even signed that you have fully understood and agreed to those terms. I hate to say it, but yes, at that point you are no longer entitled to a Refund from Kickstarter, and they would challenge any move to get money back from them directly (which is what a Chargeback would do) because not only do they not have your money any more, as they paid the money out to whatever plight you opted to donate to, they would pay a fine to the credit card company and deal with a negative on their credit profile, something I am going to bet they are very unwilling to do, so we can be pretty sure they would challenge any attempt by anyone made to get money back from them, and the No Refund contract that you signed with them would ensure they would win the exchange, and it would be your credit score that would suffer.
Also they are not gambling, as they do not run any risk factors, they simply are a sounding board for people with projects to ask for donations, Kickstarter does not handle any exchange of goods or services under their ToS (and you signed and agreed that you understood that as well), and they make it clear that you assume all responsibility for what you donate your money too as they do not.
If you want a refund, then bring it up with SBS, and ask, and deal with them directly, but, do not get Kickstarter involved and don't get your credit card company involved unless you bought something directly from SBS.
You're not asking for a refund through them. You're getting a chargeback through them. Read up. It happens quite often. And they get awarded quite often. What happens after that is the question. It works out fine for them as they can pass on the total chargeback to the creator while keeping their original fee from the whole deal anyways.
They absolutely are gambling. No matter what they say, threaten, or write in their ToS, it does not override consumer protection laws. Their gamble is projects that they collect and act as a clearinghouse for will come to fruition. If not? Chargebacks. KS processes the charge and so they eat the chargeback as well. If the product/service has not delivered in a reasonable time or has changed significantly from what it was initially represented as, a chargeback is completely valid and no details provided will change that. They aren't going to fight you or try to drag it to court with a flimsy ToS that counters consumer protection laws. Believe that.
KS isn't some big bad entity to fear like you are attempting to make it seem. At worst, your KS account will be closed and you'll be unable to back anything else. If you're at the point of getting a legitimate chargeback, you're probably willing to pay that price.
I'm not advocating chargebacks by any means. I haven't had to initiate one mostly because I haven't crowdfunded anything. Just saying that they will almost certainly win. The only payment model that explicitly states that chargebacks are not available for crowdfunding due to the very nature of crowdfunding is PayPal. Credit cards and any other service treats crowdfunding exactly like any other product or service. Unless that has changed within the last year or so. There are legal loopholes all over the concept of crowdfunding and the money involved.
Comments
I mean it’s meaningless... but just another silly example.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yep. It's one thing for Dleatherus to defend Chronicles of Elyria, but now he's resorting to lying just to keep someone from getting a refund that they have a right to. That's really shameful and also brings up the question if this is really about defending Chronicles of Elyria as a project, or something far more sinister.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
None of it matters.
With all the money that changed hands, what does SBS, or anyone who contributed money have to show for it? And when will that happen?
Right.
Next question.
If that doesn’t merit instant Harbinger status I don’t know what would.
Well done. Guess the Ivory Tower had their own private TOS
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
What I think of is more alnong the lines of......
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So yes, what they say in the ToS (That you legally agreed to, and thus are legally bound it) does matter.
In the case with things like Kickstarter where they say, the only condition by which they will give a refund is if the Goal was not met, by the legally binding contract you signed with Kickstarter, you are no longer entitled to a refund from Kickstarter if the goal was met, no matter what else happens.
Also, I doubt anyone cares about the ToS, if the product isn't as described, then asking for a refund (not a instant chargeback) is well within someone's measurements.
You don't have to be a lawyer to know that the ToS/Signs don't bar the seller from adhering to state/federal law. Even elementary children know this.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
If there is any ToS that anyone should be held to it is the SBS one in effect at the time of final funding from Kickstarter to SBS.
Trying to get a refund from KS at this point is like trying to get a refund from a credit card processing service because the item you paid for with your credit card broke under warranty.
TL;DR... so what?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Here is a clue.. if you are stupid enough to sign something and not read it, let this be a wake up call, ignorance is not an excuse.
Expecting you have half a brain to read what you sign before you put your name on it and money into it.. is common sense.. which.. unfortunately for some of the people on this forum.. laws are based on common sense.
While a contract cannot force you to do something illegal, they can in many ways limit your legal actions. You should read what a car loan limits you to, it's an eye opener, what fees you agree to pay, and what legal rights you give to the loan agency and what rights you sign away.
If you really think you can just back out of a contract because it suddenly does not agree with you.. you would be.. very.. very mistaken.
Some days you gotta grow up and realize the world is not a magical place where you win the day, leave that kind of delusional thinking for in-game stuff.
To coin the Honorable Judge that presided over one of my cases involving a phone contract, "You are liable for the rights you sign away"
It was a very "welcome to adulthood" moment, figured I'd share that with you before you get to hear the same thing from a lawyer or judge, or a collection agency.. which could be worse, depending on the situation.
Guess there's always someone who can't even understand the basics.
I mean... I'm just...
I'm trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion that that's what I meant and it's blowing my mind.
You know what, just nevermind. Everyone else here understands what I'm talking about so like, whatever. Arguing with someone who apparently doesn't even have a basic high school level education about how contracts work is not worth my time or brain cells.
or some other foolishly naive' thought, as someone that has been through contract litigation...
The answer is.. No.
Now. with grim reality out of the way... feel free to return to your fantasy life.. and ignore what I said..
You say I'm wrong, then your second sentence agrees with me? Why are you explaining tort laws in terms of a car loan to a virtual game?
And yes you can back out of a contract, want to know why? Because, one of the reasons people CAN back out of a contract when they feel it doesn't agree with them, is because it really does not agree with them or the state.
Judges null contracts all the time, even if the contract has legal tools but applied in illegal ways, such as super high interest rates that may not be allowed because of interest caps in your respective state.
I'd try the refund route through SBS first, but if they don't accept that I would definitely do a chargeback at this point. The delivery date is long past and there has been a fundamental change in the product/service originally offered. Both, separately, are valid chargeback reasons.
The chargeback would go through KS, but they aren't likely to challenge it so much as provide information. They say as much on their terms. It's on them as to what they do next. Given the reasons above, it is VERY unlikely they will pursue one, or even a handful of individuals rather than attempt to get all that money back from the creator who caused those chargeback issues to arise.
No ToS is going to override consumer protection laws. While they may not want you to think it or have it appear as such, KS is gambling just as much as individual backers. They are taking the role as a middleman or angel investor with many shareholders.
Also they are not gambling, as they do not run any risk factors, they simply are a sounding board for people with projects to ask for donations, Kickstarter does not handle any exchange of goods or services under their ToS (and you signed and agreed that you understood that as well), and they make it clear that you assume all responsibility for what you donate your money too as they do not.
If you want a refund, then bring it up with SBS, and ask, and deal with them directly, but, do not get Kickstarter involved and don't get your credit card company involved unless you bought something directly from SBS.
They absolutely are gambling. No matter what they say, threaten, or write in their ToS, it does not override consumer protection laws. Their gamble is projects that they collect and act as a clearinghouse for will come to fruition. If not? Chargebacks. KS processes the charge and so they eat the chargeback as well. If the product/service has not delivered in a reasonable time or has changed significantly from what it was initially represented as, a chargeback is completely valid and no details provided will change that. They aren't going to fight you or try to drag it to court with a flimsy ToS that counters consumer protection laws. Believe that.
KS isn't some big bad entity to fear like you are attempting to make it seem. At worst, your KS account will be closed and you'll be unable to back anything else. If you're at the point of getting a legitimate chargeback, you're probably willing to pay that price.
I'm not advocating chargebacks by any means. I haven't had to initiate one mostly because I haven't crowdfunded anything. Just saying that they will almost certainly win. The only payment model that explicitly states that chargebacks are not available for crowdfunding due to the very nature of crowdfunding is PayPal. Credit cards and any other service treats crowdfunding exactly like any other product or service. Unless that has changed within the last year or so. There are legal loopholes all over the concept of crowdfunding and the money involved.