Equipment damage and repair

Amathe

I can't recall seeing if VR has said whether there will be equipment damage and a need for equipment repair? Bear in mind I cannot search the official website since I an not a member.

Any word on this?

Mendel

Based totally on Brad's history of games, I'd guess not.  Even if I could see the official website, it would only be words that express their current (or past) intent, not what was actually coded and delivered.  I don't put much faith into marketing documentation; I need to see things in action before I will believe the intent has made it into code.

Anyway, the NDA will probably keep questions like this from being answered until you get hands-on access.

Good question, though.

Dullahan

They intend for there to be no damage to equipment. It's a decision I do not like, but that has been stated numerous times.

For me, it's a huge missed opportunity to provide more purpose for crafters and interaction between players. I'd like to see a system where players can "set up shop" outside of a dungeon repairing armor, mending robes and sharpening weapons.

Maybe that level of "virtual world" is just beyond the scope of Pantheon, but I long for an mmo where we can actually see temporary, or even permanent shops built in areas where there's a demand for particular services. Not everyone wants to slay monsters all day in their mmorpg. This sort of thing is the perfect opportunity to get back to the role playing roots in the genre.

svann

Wow had armor damage and I did not like it.  Tried it - didnt like it.
edit: if we could stop and repair on the spot maybe, but going back to town to do it really sucked.

Wizardry

If there is a really good way to do it , i would be ok but what i have seen done in the past is just a simple lazy design.

I'll try to put it in a realistic way.Imagine you have plate armor,well and if someone tried to stick you with a sword,it might receive some scratches but even 1500 scratches later,a sword is not penetrating that armor.Now if you were fighting fire breathing dragons perhaps that would ruin the integrity of the armor but even still,i would bet that 100 year old armor is still going to protect you 100%.

So i need to be convinced as to why that plate armor is no longer protecting you.I would rather see a trade off,leather gets damaged a bit over time,cloth gets ripped and eventually needs to be replaced not fixed.Armor would however just SLOW the character,less agility,less dexterity,so less stats but lasts forever,unless of course there is some plausible reason why it doesn't.

Kyleran

Wizardry said:

If there is a really good way to do it , i would be ok but what i have seen done in the past is just a simple lazy design.

I'll try to put it in a realistic way.Imagine you have plate armor,well and if someone tried to stick you with a sword,it might receive some scratches but even 1500 scratches later,a sword is not penetrating that armor.Now if you were fighting fire breathing dragons perhaps that would ruin the integrity of the armor but even still,i would bet that 100 year old armor is still going to protect you 100%.

So i need to be convinced as to why that plate armor is no longer protecting you.I would rather see a trade off,leather gets damaged a bit over time,cloth gets ripped and eventually needs to be replaced not fixed.Armor would however just SLOW the character,less agility,less dexterity,so less stats but lasts forever,unless of course there is some plausible reason why it doesn't.

Just checked, in medieval times swords didn't do much damage to plate,  but spears, polearms, pole axes and surprisingly armor piercing longbow arrows all could.

Amathe

Kyleran said:

Just checked, in medieval times swords didn't do much damage to plate,  but spears, polearms, pole axes and surprisingly armor piercing longbow arrows all could.

And cross-bows, depending on a number of variables.  

But keep in mind that this is a fantasy game with magic swords, so they may well slash through armor. Unless perhaps it is magic armor. Hmmmmmmm. 

Mendel

DMKano said:

its just a money sink. i am not a fan of constant wear and repair tedium that some games have

That's certainly the way wear and repair has been implemented in the past, tedious and costly.

That history hasn't deterred me from the idea of wear and repair, though.  It could be an important variable of the MMORPG experience if injected with new ideas and mechanics.  Armor and especially weapons need a reason to be replaced other than 'this one has better stats'.  It doesn't always have to be about the DPS.

svann

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

its just a money sink. i am not a fan of constant wear and repair tedium that some games have

That's certainly the way wear and repair has been implemented in the past, tedious and costly.

That history hasn't deterred me from the idea of wear and repair, though.  It could be an important variable of the MMORPG experience if injected with new ideas and mechanics.  Armor and especially weapons need a reason to be replaced other than 'this one has better stats'.

Ok, define what need you are talking about.  Why do you think armor and weapons NEED to have a reason to be replaced besides upgrades?

kjempff

There are so many mechanics that would be nice to have (and of course in a totally new and revolutionary smart way), but it is just not possible for a small budget project to have all that. Probably a good idea to cut some stuff like equipment wear, because there is no fundamental hinderence to adding it later... but sometimes I wish they would dream a little bigger and louder

Dullahan

Upgrades seem like a good enough reason to me, but I wouldn't be opposed to a system in which wear had a slight impact to weapon stats over time.

Permanent item wear and eventually destruction really doesn't work well in a game where items take days, weeks, even months to obtain.

Scumm

DMKano said:

its just a money sink. i am not a fan of constant wear and repair tedium that some games have

This was my understanding too.  I thought the purpose for weapon/armor-repair-systems was to permanently remove currency from the economy.  I'm always a fan of creating more interdependency among players (like having a "repair" tradeskill), or for the inclusion of immersive systems, but I'm not sure that is why some mmos include equipment damage.

Mendel

svann said:

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

its just a money sink. i am not a fan of constant wear and repair tedium that some games have

That's certainly the way wear and repair has been implemented in the past, tedious and costly.

That history hasn't deterred me from the idea of wear and repair, though.  It could be an important variable of the MMORPG experience if injected with new ideas and mechanics.  Armor and especially weapons need a reason to be replaced other than 'this one has better stats'.

Ok, define what need you are talking about.  Why do you think armor and weapons NEED to have a reason to be replaced besides upgrades?

Weapons break.  A significant number of ancient battlefields are only know by the presence of broken, bent and discarded weapons.  People have always tended to preserve fallen human bodies, but objects are simply left behind.  Swords.  Shields.  Bows.  Straps for armor.  Bowstrings.  Even rifle stocks, scopes and entire weapons in modern days.  Archaeologists have known this for quite some time.

If a game is going to simulate combat, I think it needs to somehow represent that.  Weapons and gear were always an expensive personal cost to war.  Simply eliminating that risk fails the 'simulation' of the conflict, and reducing wear and tear to a totally abstracted system doesn't satisfy.  Granted, you and I may be on completely different ends of the 'simulation-vs-game' continuum, but there's got to be something more advanced than an 'your armor needs repair' indicator to satisfy.

As for a different idea, how about a melee feedback cue to alert the player that their gear had taken an unusual hit?  Something along the lines of the audio combat cues that DAoC used.  A melee character would know when there was an opening for a parry or counterattack or shield bash.  Extend that to a 'bad' sound of metal breaking, signaling that some piece of gear wasn't working as expected and needed replacement.  It doesn't need to be a constant thing, just a reason to look after your gear.  Enough 'bad' feedback, and the item may experience a catastrophic failure.

Dullahan

Do those battlefields also show remains of elves and hobbits?

svann

Weapons on battlefields did not take a year to obtain.

Tamanous

svann said:

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

its just a money sink. i am not a fan of constant wear and repair tedium that some games have

That's certainly the way wear and repair has been implemented in the past, tedious and costly.

That history hasn't deterred me from the idea of wear and repair, though.  It could be an important variable of the MMORPG experience if injected with new ideas and mechanics.  Armor and especially weapons need a reason to be replaced other than 'this one has better stats'.

Ok, define what need you are talking about.  Why do you think armor and weapons NEED to have a reason to be replaced besides upgrades?

Not sure why some are making real world comparisons but item decay is typically part of games supporting a crafted economy and is very important for those.

Wow style decay is entirely for a penalty to failed attempts at content to stop infinite mad rushes just to chance complete it. Blizzard said that exact reason for adding it. I was playing/testing the game when they added it.

I have no idea how pantheon will handle the issues why such mechanics exist and how they impact their game but players need to realize the reasons to have solutions to similar issues as they arise. They may not use gear as the answer but they can't ignore them simply because players say "annoying".

Kyleran

Dullahan said:

They intend for there to be no damage to equipment. It's a decision I do not like, but that has been stated numerous times.

For me, it's a huge missed opportunity to provide more purpose for crafters and interaction between players. I'd like to see a system where players can "set up shop" outside of a dungeon repairing armor, mending robes and sharpening weapons.

Maybe that level of "virtual world" is just beyond the scope of Pantheon, but I long for an mmo where we can actually see temporary, or even permanent shops built in areas where there's a demand for particular services. Not everyone wants to slay monsters all day in their mmorpg. This sort of thing is the perfect opportunity to get back to the role playing roots in the genre.

They are building more of a grouping focused "game" rather than a virtual world simulator.

The audience for the former is far larger, and while not everyone wants to slay monsters all day, that's what a majority of players want to do.

For many gamers, any mechanics which slow down their progression are a no go, and view item decay and the crafting it may support as an impediment to their goals.

Zuljan

Greetings all. Hope everyone's been well. New work position and moving has taken my life over the past couple months, but got a chance to catch up on everything. Everything has been pretty much covered here, so I just wanted to add that with the recent trade skill reveals and discussions, it appears they are allowing all equippable items to be "disenchanted" for lack of a better word. It's a bit of a misnomer as many of us will reference wow for DEing, and Pantheon differs in that the items will break down into several useable pieces/parts thats range in rarity and can be used for other crafting purposes (or selling), as opposed to WoW restricted to enchantments only. This will obviously have an influential, direct correlation to economic values/crafters in game (by both crafting mats and gear), and is their way of balancing the act. I like it personally, for if you break it down mathematically it just creates many more influential gameplay possibilities (in an array of categories) as opposed to simply allowing gear to wear.

But then I guess why not have both for sake of realism? One of the only detriments I can see apart from the apparent tedium, is it would interrupt those long 5+ hour camps/grinds. Flow/momentum is really important in groups. A lot of times is the difference between people staying 5 hours or making up an excuse to have to leave. Needless to say, groups wipe a lot more frequently. Having to do a long corpse run just to run all the way back to repair would be quite a day

Kayo83

I dont mind it either way, its really just a gold sink. Crafting can be improved in other way and other gold sinks can be applied to pretty much anything. Im actually surprised its not planned though... figured if any game was going to have it it was the old-school grind and punishment inspired game design of Pantheon

delete5230

Mendel said:

svann said:

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

its just a money sink. i am not a fan of constant wear and repair tedium that some games have

That's certainly the way wear and repair has been implemented in the past, tedious and costly.

That history hasn't deterred me from the idea of wear and repair, though.  It could be an important variable of the MMORPG experience if injected with new ideas and mechanics.  Armor and especially weapons need a reason to be replaced other than 'this one has better stats'.

Ok, define what need you are talking about.  Why do you think armor and weapons NEED to have a reason to be replaced besides upgrades?

Weapons break.  A significant number of ancient battlefields are only know by the presence of broken, bent and discarded weapons.  People have always tended to preserve fallen human bodies, but objects are simply left behind.  Swords.  Shields.  Bows.  Straps for armor.  Bowstrings.  Even rifle stocks, scopes and entire weapons in modern days.  Archaeologists have known this for quite some time.

If a game is going to simulate combat, I think it needs to somehow represent that.  Weapons and gear were always an expensive personal cost to war.  Simply eliminating that risk fails the 'simulation' of the conflict, and reducing wear and tear to a totally abstracted system doesn't satisfy.  Granted, you and I may be on completely different ends of the 'simulation-vs-game' continuum, but there's got to be something more advanced than an 'your armor needs repair' indicator to satisfy.

As for a different idea, how about a melee feedback cue to alert the player that their gear had taken an unusual hit?  Something along the lines of the audio combat cues that DAoC used.  A melee character would know when there was an opening for a parry or counterattack or shield bash.  Extend that to a 'bad' sound of metal breaking, signaling that some piece of gear wasn't working as expected and needed replacement.  It doesn't need to be a constant thing, just a reason to look after your gear.  Enough 'bad' feedback, and the item may experience a catastrophic failure.

 

Xthos

Well, two games that stand out for decay are:

UO - Most stuff was crafter made, it broke, you got killed and lost it, you died and monsters maybe looted you....It mostly wasn't a big deal.  Their was magic stuff, and some could be pretty nice, but it wasn't so huge if you lost it or it got to where it was low durability.  It has been a while, but I remember if I took my fighter out, I would bring a few GM quality swords with me, so I could change out periodically.  Then you would hit a blacksmith up, or use your blacksmith to repair after a hunting trip.  Not sure this system is exciting enough for people now.

DAoC - You would slowly lose durability if I remember correctly, so you would eventually have to replace things.   I think it was pretty slow, if I remember correctly.  Most stuff seemed to be drops from mobs or a barter system in the rvr dungeon darkness falls I think it was called.  Been a long time.


I personally am fine with whatever system, if it is EQ like, where you have something forever, UO like where you often replaced things, or the slow over time system of DAoC.  UO was the most carefree one, people would often have backpacks of gear sitting around to replace everything if they died, like a all in one go bag, to get back out quickly (especially if mobs killed you and looted you, you could kill them and get your stuff back, if you could find them or kill them before someone else did and looted your stuff).

I think we are most likely to get a EQ type system, with a very small chance for the DAoC type system.  They said it would be geared for pve, and for longevity, I think the DAoC system provides the need to replace stuff, so it would make people have to get more drops over time, which may be good for crafting/grouping.

Zuljan

Cool reading these comments about how other games have done it. The more time that goes on and discussions with devs etc, the more I'm put at ease by the direction of development. I enjoy coming up with new, innovative ideas or even just asking the right questions about something, but quite literally about 95%+ I share or do back and forth with, they've already seen and long since discussed the idea in its' entirety. Hope this doesn't come off as a shill comment; I'm just genuinely impressed with the dev team's exorbitant experience and intelligence, which has put me at ease.

There are some particular grouping numbers and possible dungeon designs that have been widely talked about and received highly positive critical acclaim (having to do with 2 group design content meshed into other single group content zones/dungeons to create/allow a much more fluid and enjoyable transition into some more difficult content depending on who or how many people are inhabiting the zone at the time and their relative positions). 

I think I'm most excited for this. Not just for guilds to have something to do on off nights or during the day, but for solo players/small groups of friends as well, for it's a happy medium between a single small group and what has always traditionally been the next step up (24 or 42 man raids). 2 man groups would offer a nice "in-between"balance, where you can easily PM someone in the zone and ask if they'd like to venture to the more demanding, 2 group content in the zone. There are obviously a lot of other residual health benefits for the game from this as well.

Sorry it's been awhile and this is sort of off topic, but I'm just really looking forward to this design (assuming it comes to fruition) and some other similarly innovative things like this the most right now. There are so many micro improvements/innovations like this that still haven't been properly assimilated into mmorpgs, and I think this game is going to feel additionally fresh/nascent for a variety of small, unseen-but-impactful reasons like this.