You better tell Mark Jacobs quickly why he's wrong and you're right lol.
No point trying to do so. While Mark is no doubt a nice guy, he is delusional - living in the past, being completely out of touch with current market and players...
This is very worrisome that they are asking this question. From the start this was supposed to be the 'savior' game that went back to buying the game, paying a sub fee, and buying expansions. Why are they asking opinions of a question that have been answered again and again on their forums and forums all around the net. Ugh don't let me down VR.
It's my thought that they crunched the numbers and realized that it wasn't going to be enough. Their original idea was "either" sub or players buy the game and then bought "mini-modules".
I think they are now figuring out what "mini-modules" means.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
Let them eat cosmetics.
Unsustainable long term - unless the cosmetics provide some kind of boosts to character power (which means they are not really cosmetics anymore)
In another thread, I suggested that one of the things that would be tested with the pre-alpha phase of Pantheon is the limits of 'what the market will bear' in terms of RMT. They appear to be making some progress, despite the NDA's efforts to keep everything under wraps.
@Nanfoodle -- if you are being held against your will, blink twice.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Unless you can point to actual numbers, I really wouldn't say things like this.
I realize people like Jim Sterling (and I am a fan though don't always agree with him) like to say things like this the truth is they have no actual numbers nor do they actually work in the business.
I mean, you say Server costs are not that high anymore, ok great, what does it cost for servers/services/maintenance "whatever" for a specific game? I understand at one point there was a connection fee for game companies per player to connect, is that still a thing?
Do you actually have numbers or are you just saying things that others have said on the interwebz?
You act as if subs aren't still around, and there's no titles using it for their only/primary source of revenue.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Unless you can point to actual numbers, I really wouldn't say things like this.
I realize people like Jim Sterling (and I am a fan though don't always agree with him) like to say things like this the truth is they have no actual numbers nor do they actually work in the business.
I mean, you say Server costs are not that high anymore, ok great, what does it cost for servers/services/maintenance "whatever" for a specific game? I understand at one point there was a connection fee for game companies per player to connect, is that still a thing?
Do you actually have numbers or are you just saying things that others have said on the interwebz?
You act as if subs aren't still around, and there's no titles using it for their only/primary source of revenue.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
I fully know subs are still around. I also know they haven't gone up significantly in years.
And my post still stands, unless people actually have numbers they are sort of pissing in the wind.
Final Fantasy 14 is sub (and I believe it's variable depending on how many characters you have) and they still have a cash shop.
Dark Age of Camelot ... yup, sub. How many people work on that game? is it 5? 10? 30? I bet it's closer to the lower number than the higher number.
And yes, I agree that game companies need to have more realistic ideas about their revenue. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a variety of truths as far as how much things cost.
Do we know the entire team at Visionary Realms and what they do? That will help one with ballpark salaries right there. I think they develop remotely so don't have an office is that correct? If they do have an office where is it? That will help ballpark commercial real estate.
None of this is really hard, just go through everything that is a cost and one can at least see what they will most likely have to make.
So will 10k subs do it? We know that subs always go down over time. What happens if subs go below a certain mark? Will they add cash shop then or close the game?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
Let them eat cosmetics.
Unsustainable long term - unless the cosmetics provide some kind of boosts to character power (which means they are not really cosmetics anymore)
tell that to Path of Exile. . .
stash tab aka storage space is the most purchased item in PoE
How convinient of you to ignore that, hmm?
technically you're right, but also fail to see how that doesn't matter. . .Chris said a long time ago that while they see a bump in revenue when they release a new type of stash tab the majority of their revenue comes from cosmetics.
which makes sense, a stash tab costs $3 ( $4 for premium ) while armor sets cost upwards of $120 to complete a look.
in the same post on Reddit where Chris said cosmetics fuel their development he also stated the average number of tabs per player was 7 not including the 4 free ones. ( that would be a total of 11 for you quick math types )
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Unless you can point to actual numbers, I really wouldn't say things like this.
I realize people like Jim Sterling (and I am a fan though don't always agree with him) like to say things like this the truth is they have no actual numbers nor do they actually work in the business.
I mean, you say Server costs are not that high anymore, ok great, what does it cost for servers/services/maintenance "whatever" for a specific game? I understand at one point there was a connection fee for game companies per player to connect, is that still a thing?
Do you actually have numbers or are you just saying things that others have said on the interwebz?
You act as if subs aren't still around, and there's no titles using it for their only/primary source of revenue.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
I fully know subs are still around. I also know they haven't gone up significantly in years.
And my post still stands, unless people actually have numbers they are sort of pissing in the wind.
Final Fantasy 14 is sub (and I believe it's variable depending on how many characters you have) and they still have a cash shop.
Dark Age of Camelot ... yup, sub. How many people work on that game? is it 5? 10? 30? I bet it's closer to the lower number than the higher number.
And yes, I agree that game companies need to have more realistic ideas about their revenue. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a variety of truths as far as how much things cost.
Do we know the entire team at Visionary Realms and what they do? That will help one with ballpark salaries right there. I think they develop remotely so don't have an office is that correct? If they do have an office where is it? That will help ballpark commercial real estate.
None of this is really hard, just go through everything that is a cost and one can at least see what they will most likely have to make.
So will 10k subs do it? We know that subs always go down over time. What happens if subs go below a certain mark? Will they add cash shop then or close the game?
Neither me nor Iselin mentioned 10k. But this isn't binary; there are a whole lot of numbers between 10k and millions that you guys seem to be completely ignoring.
The point is, MTs have nothing to do with mere success or failure. It has to do with degree of profit being extracted from the project. Nothing more. There are multiple examples of success and failures utilizing both subs as primary revenue and MTs. That's not the crux of the issue.
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Unless you can point to actual numbers, I really wouldn't say things like this.
I realize people like Jim Sterling (and I am a fan though don't always agree with him) like to say things like this the truth is they have no actual numbers nor do they actually work in the business.
I mean, you say Server costs are not that high anymore, ok great, what does it cost for servers/services/maintenance "whatever" for a specific game? I understand at one point there was a connection fee for game companies per player to connect, is that still a thing?
Do you actually have numbers or are you just saying things that others have said on the interwebz?
You act as if subs aren't still around, and there's no titles using it for their only/primary source of revenue.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
I fully know subs are still around. I also know they haven't gone up significantly in years.
And my post still stands, unless people actually have numbers they are sort of pissing in the wind.
Final Fantasy 14 is sub (and I believe it's variable depending on how many characters you have) and they still have a cash shop.
Dark Age of Camelot ... yup, sub. How many people work on that game? is it 5? 10? 30? I bet it's closer to the lower number than the higher number.
And yes, I agree that game companies need to have more realistic ideas about their revenue. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a variety of truths as far as how much things cost.
Do we know the entire team at Visionary Realms and what they do? That will help one with ballpark salaries right there. I think they develop remotely so don't have an office is that correct? If they do have an office where is it? That will help ballpark commercial real estate.
None of this is really hard, just go through everything that is a cost and one can at least see what they will most likely have to make.
So will 10k subs do it? We know that subs always go down over time. What happens if subs go below a certain mark? Will they add cash shop then or close the game?
Neither me nor Iselin mentioned 10k. But this isn't binary; there are a whole lot of numbers between 10k and millions that you guys seem to be completely ignoring.
The point is, MTs have nothing to do with mere success or failure. It has to do with degree of profit being extracted from the project. Nothing more. There are multiple examples of success and failures utilizing both subs as primary revenue and MTs. That's not the crux of the issue.
Iselin threw out 10k.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Unless you can point to actual numbers, I really wouldn't say things like this.
I realize people like Jim Sterling (and I am a fan though don't always agree with him) like to say things like this the truth is they have no actual numbers nor do they actually work in the business.
I mean, you say Server costs are not that high anymore, ok great, what does it cost for servers/services/maintenance "whatever" for a specific game? I understand at one point there was a connection fee for game companies per player to connect, is that still a thing?
Do you actually have numbers or are you just saying things that others have said on the interwebz?
You act as if subs aren't still around, and there's no titles using it for their only/primary source of revenue.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
I fully know subs are still around. I also know they haven't gone up significantly in years.
And my post still stands, unless people actually have numbers they are sort of pissing in the wind.
Final Fantasy 14 is sub (and I believe it's variable depending on how many characters you have) and they still have a cash shop.
Dark Age of Camelot ... yup, sub. How many people work on that game? is it 5? 10? 30? I bet it's closer to the lower number than the higher number.
And yes, I agree that game companies need to have more realistic ideas about their revenue. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a variety of truths as far as how much things cost.
Do we know the entire team at Visionary Realms and what they do? That will help one with ballpark salaries right there. I think they develop remotely so don't have an office is that correct? If they do have an office where is it? That will help ballpark commercial real estate.
None of this is really hard, just go through everything that is a cost and one can at least see what they will most likely have to make.
So will 10k subs do it? We know that subs always go down over time. What happens if subs go below a certain mark? Will they add cash shop then or close the game?
Neither me nor Iselin mentioned 10k. But this isn't binary; there are a whole lot of numbers between 10k and millions that you guys seem to be completely ignoring.
The point is, MTs have nothing to do with mere success or failure. It has to do with degree of profit being extracted from the project. Nothing more. There are multiple examples of success and failures utilizing both subs as primary revenue and MTs. That's not the crux of the issue.
Iselin threw out 10k.
Apologies, you're correct. The point still stands.
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Unless you can point to actual numbers, I really wouldn't say things like this.
I realize people like Jim Sterling (and I am a fan though don't always agree with him) like to say things like this the truth is they have no actual numbers nor do they actually work in the business.
I mean, you say Server costs are not that high anymore, ok great, what does it cost for servers/services/maintenance "whatever" for a specific game? I understand at one point there was a connection fee for game companies per player to connect, is that still a thing?
Do you actually have numbers or are you just saying things that others have said on the interwebz?
You act as if subs aren't still around, and there's no titles using it for their only/primary source of revenue.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
I fully know subs are still around. I also know they haven't gone up significantly in years.
And my post still stands, unless people actually have numbers they are sort of pissing in the wind.
Final Fantasy 14 is sub (and I believe it's variable depending on how many characters you have) and they still have a cash shop.
Dark Age of Camelot ... yup, sub. How many people work on that game? is it 5? 10? 30? I bet it's closer to the lower number than the higher number.
And yes, I agree that game companies need to have more realistic ideas about their revenue. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a variety of truths as far as how much things cost.
Do we know the entire team at Visionary Realms and what they do? That will help one with ballpark salaries right there. I think they develop remotely so don't have an office is that correct? If they do have an office where is it? That will help ballpark commercial real estate.
None of this is really hard, just go through everything that is a cost and one can at least see what they will most likely have to make.
So will 10k subs do it? We know that subs always go down over time. What happens if subs go below a certain mark? Will they add cash shop then or close the game?
Neither me nor Iselin mentioned 10k. But this isn't binary; there are a whole lot of numbers between 10k and millions that you guys seem to be completely ignoring.
The point is, MTs have nothing to do with mere success or failure. It has to do with degree of profit being extracted from the project. Nothing more. There are multiple examples of success and failures utilizing both subs as primary revenue and MTs. That's not the crux of the issue.
Actually I did throw 10K subs out there as a minimalist example. I have no idea how many DAoC has these days but I'd be surprised if it's a lot more than that,
But it's just an example- just like 20K or 50K subs would be. The number of subs is not the issue. I just want to challenge the idea that the sub-only model is dead.
It might be dead for the AAA studios with grand expectations since they discovered that they can make much more money with predatory practices. But what about the independent games like CU, Pantheon and others?
The mere fact that they are focused on catering to certain sub-segments of the MMO playing public (unlike the AAA counterparts who focus more on having something for everyone) should temper their own expectations.
I remain unconvinced that the sub-only model is dead and if it's going to resurface successfully somewhere it will be precisely in games like Pantheon and CU.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
just plain sub fee and im happy most people want it free all the time with little knowledge on the fact the company has to make money to pay for server costs,keeping the office lights on,and paying the payroll for their staff nothing is free.
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Why not just do math? Here's $2 million, now you tell me a story about how you're going to survive the year with a team of 18 people.
So... what number would make you happy? You don't like 10K subs? How about 50k?
I honestly don't get why you seem to be personally invested in subs not being viable.
We get why AAA studios no longer like them except as a way to supplement their loot boxes and other lucrative MTs but last I checked crowdfunded MMOs are ostensibly doing what they do to do it a different way.
So how many subs do you think your team of 18 needs to carry on and not fall prey to Kano's depression?
For a team of 18? I don't think that 50k is horrible at all. It isn't even that 10k is horrible, but you're like peppering your statements with caveats at that point.
At $100k per year per person (which is below average for a software dev in the US), and a labor burden of 50%, which is probably pretty conservative, you're talking about like $2.7 million. However, what is the development cadence like on Pantheon? Is it super agile and quick? Is it quick enough to satisfy their subscribers? I don't know. So what does a sustaining team "look" like? I have no clue.
So the this cost is probably fairly conservative based on average salaries as well as a lower labor burden (especially for software where licensing costs and equipment is more costly). That value would get you down to like 15,000 subscribers. However, as mentioned here already, it's tough to attract talent to a company that's just treading water, too.
I feel like I offended you some way, which I'm not trying to do. Idealistically, I'd LOVE to play a sub-only game. However, realistically, I don't see myself playing any one game exclusively, either. I actually hop between 2 games right now as it is, so adding another means even less time. So I'm not saying subscriptions can't work. I think they're ideal for MMOs. However, I think the rhetoric of people claiming that we "..shouldn't believe the marketing..." only really illustrates that people don't understand the costs associated with running a business.
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
True, but he has way more than 18 employees, has manufacturing and machinery costs, and his costs still total less than 3 million annually.
Me thinks folks aren't actually calculating accurate "costs" when they quote things like 4 million needed. Software licensing is expensive, but logistics for delivery and manufacturing are almost non-existent today.
Lets all keep in mind that speed of updates doesn't actually mean quality content. WoW: Legion and FFXIV are honestly prime examples of this since both can't even go 6 months without the content they put out being obsolete. So if it takes the Pantheon team 6 months to a year to release content that lasts for 6 months+, I'd prefer that then what we are having now. As for expansions, I'd like them to actually find a way to make content that expands the existing world, not just pushes everyone into the latest thing. That's pretty much why older versions of games lasted so long. They put out content that still had you doing old stuff ontop of new stuff that went into your current "rotation" (probably FFXI doing this more so than a lot of other mmorpgs). If more games adopted this old strategy, people would care less about level caps and more about enjoying every aspect of the game since it flows together. Levels should make doing existing content easier, not serve as a barrier of entry.
A monthly sub and everything available in the game just like the old days
The only problem with this model is that it requires a very high population of players to stay viable because you put a low, fixed cap on how much a player can spend on the game.
The real problem is that is unsustainable - it is literally impossible to run a MMORPG on pure subscription for a long time.
The population over time declines - and only continues to decline - thus inevitably reaching a point where running a game costs more than the number of players remaining to sustain it.
The only variable is how fast you get to this point - 6 months, a year - or decades - but it is inevitable.
That's the same nonsense like EA saying that they can't develop great games anymore without loot boxes because the development costs are too high. Monster Hunter can. Others can too. WoW would still be a great success even without any cash shop.
Server costs are not that high anymore even. And when your population dwindles the game runs into financial issues independent from the payment system it uses.
Don't fall for what the marketing guys want you to believe. They just found out a long time ago that you can squeeze much more money out of your customers with a F2P/cash shop/loot box game than a subscription based game.
Why not just do math? Here's $2 million, now you tell me a story about how you're going to survive the year with a team of 18 people.
So... what number would make you happy? You don't like 10K subs? How about 50k?
I honestly don't get why you seem to be personally invested in subs not being viable.
We get why AAA studios no longer like them except as a way to supplement their loot boxes and other lucrative MTs but last I checked crowdfunded MMOs are ostensibly doing what they do to do it a different way.
So how many subs do you think your team of 18 needs to carry on and not fall prey to Kano's depression?
For a team of 18? I don't think that 50k is horrible at all. It isn't even that 10k is horrible, but you're like peppering your statements with caveats at that point.
At $100k per year per person (which is below average for a software dev in the US), and a labor burden of 50%, which is probably pretty conservative, you're talking about like $2.7 million. However, what is the development cadence like on Pantheon? Is it super agile and quick? Is it quick enough to satisfy their subscribers? I don't know. So what does a sustaining team "look" like? I have no clue.
So the this cost is probably fairly conservative based on average salaries as well as a lower labor burden (especially for software where licensing costs and equipment is more costly). That value would get you down to like 15,000 subscribers. However, as mentioned here already, it's tough to attract talent to a company that's just treading water, too.
I feel like I offended you some way, which I'm not trying to do. Idealistically, I'd LOVE to play a sub-only game. However, realistically, I don't see myself playing any one game exclusively, either. I actually hop between 2 games right now as it is, so adding another means even less time. So I'm not saying subscriptions can't work. I think they're ideal for MMOs. However, I think the rhetoric of people claiming that we "..shouldn't believe the marketing..." only really illustrates that people don't understand the costs associated with running a business.
MMORPGs are and always were a niche as is the more focused appeal of most of the crowdfunded projects underway.
This is a good thing and success for the Pantheons and CUs will be measure in the 10s of thousands to low 6 figures as stable populations IMO.
Coincidental with this is a growing fatigue by the more faithful (for lack of a better word lol) MMORPGers with piece meal gaming. I think most of us would like to achieve whatever extras we like in these games - be it costumes, mounts, houses... whatever - by game playing means.
So I think it's very realistic and the timing is very good for old-fashioned sub only to make a come back. We'd even get blowhards like Jim "fucking" Sterling praising the shit out of an "honest all-inclusive sub" in the current anti gouging climate.
My own personal interest in this is actually selfish if I'm going to be honest: I want it so that the toxic, casual and whiny tourists are weeded out in a way that F2P or B2P games can't.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
True, but he has way more than 18 employees, has manufacturing and machinery costs, and his costs still total less than 3 million annually.
Me thinks folks aren't actually calculating accurate "costs" when they quote things like 4 million needed. Software licensing is expensive, but logistics for delivery and manufacturing are almost non-existent today.
You keep making this argument but Raph Koster's fact-based study doesn't line up with your conjecture that software licensing and delivery are nearly cost zero endeavors and that making software is cheaper than ever.
I'll link it again for reference. Making games now does not have the same revenue return it did 20 or 30 years ago. For all the costs less money is going into developer hands when the trend should be in the opposite direction given automation, internet platforms, and technology advances. But it's not happening that way. Some types of game development are getting squeezed a lot harder than others. Some systems don't look sustainable long term.
@laserit Comparing business economics in two different industries like they work the same is incredibly disingenuous and misleading to promote an agenda or just ignorant. If it's so much cheaper and easier in the game industry why would you trudge along with carving steel? Just hop on over the vidya game industree and make good games (unlike those other idiots) and billions will just fall in your lap. I know that's rude, but no more than casually dismissing the economic challenges in this industry like you've walked in those shoes. You haven't.
None of that actually matters though, whether you think making games is a cash cow or pubs are revenue starved and need those loot crates, Visionary is trying to find the right revenue system for their demographic with this game. They're not asking for platitudes and pontification. They're asking the people who want to play this game how they're willing and moreover want to pay for it.
They want a sub, but the question implies that VR needs additional revenue streams. It doesn't matter whether the rest of the industry can or can't survive on a sub-only deal, VR thinks they need more. At the very least they want the security of multiple streams in place. They also don't want to disenfranchise their core base with revenue systems that will cause them to bail.
So the arguments should really be focused on what should they sell and how? What should they steer clear of and why? What can they leverage in the current industry ecosystem to maximize their return, because no one wants to just scrape by so miserly MMO gamers can have the most premium experience possible while paying as little as possible.
So for example, I think their additional revenue streams should be in line with the subscription philosophy which is to spread costs evenly across the playerbase. If they add DLC or microtransactions they should be in a way that is spread across the entire playerbase as much as possible. This keeps the individual price lower rather than needing to charge more per item across a smaller demographic.
And he pawns off marketing as a footnote, despite noting it will likely cost 75-100% of the development costs, and never explores whether or not those costs are justified or well-spent.
He's speaking from his perspective, which seems lacking when talking about roughly half a pub's costs to release AAA titles. Stop ignoring that, it makes you look just as guilty of misleading or being disingenuous to prove your side.
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
The cost of an employee can be 1.25+ x what you are paying him/her. So if you are paying an employee 100k you are actually paying ~125k+
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
The cost of an employee can be 1.25+ x what you are paying him/her. So if you are paying an employee 100k you are actually paying ~125k+
Are those costs for the employee only, or does it figure in rental space, equipment, etc., etc? I swear that for some reason I thought healthcare was like $15k annually all on its own, but I wasn't sure.
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
The cost of an employee can be 1.25+ x what you are paying him/her. So if you are paying an employee 100k you are actually paying ~125k+
Are those costs for the employee only, or does it figure in rental space, equipment, etc., etc? I swear that for some reason I thought healthcare was like $15k annually all on its own, but I wasn't sure.
That's sort of a rough estimate on what you are paying for an employee with benefits/"fringe". It can be higher.
That doesn't figure in rental space, equipment, training, etc.
I should add, since @Laserit runs his own business can can chime in and give a ballpark of how much extra he pays per head.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
Precisely the kind of comparable information that I would find useful here. Maybe overhead for each employee is higher for game devs, but materials and manufacturing are most certainly lower.
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
The cost of an employee can be 1.25+ x what you are paying him/her. So if you are paying an employee 100k you are actually paying ~125k+
Are those costs for the employee only, or does it figure in rental space, equipment, etc., etc? I swear that for some reason I thought healthcare was like $15k annually all on its own, but I wasn't sure.
That's sort of a rough estimate on what you are paying for an employee with benefits/"fringe". It can be higher.
That doesn't figure in rental space, equipment, training, etc.
I should add, since @Laserit runs his own business can can chime in and give a ballpark of how much extra he pays per head.
Apparently not, as he's not specifically creating video games and, as such, any comparison he makes is invalid.
Comments
It's my thought that they crunched the numbers and realized that it wasn't going to be enough. Their original idea was "either" sub or players buy the game and then bought "mini-modules".
I think they are now figuring out what "mini-modules" means.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
@Nanfoodle -- if you are being held against your will, blink twice.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Iselin is right- people expecting millions of subs is the issue. Sorry, but MMORPGs just aren't that popular. They've been twisted, watered down, butchered and sold in pieces because just offering the game in full doesn't earn as much as selling it piece by piece, skin by skin, pot by pot using predatory marketing and monetization tactics. But there's already evidence in the market that those aren't needed to maintain a successful MMORPG. WoW has never depended upon anything other than subs primarily, DAoC has been surviving for over a decade, and DBG is still charging subs for EQ, if I'm not mistaken. The only thing today's landscape says is large publishers have seen how much MTs earn in mobile and wanted a piece of that for themselves.
Somehow, not challenging revenue records has become failure. It's silly.
The genre isn't a competitor for revenue records. At least, not while there are a few juggernauts (WoW and Lineage in the East). This idea that you need millions of players to enjoy success when you have ample evidence (between crowdfunding and the aforementioned titles supported by subs) to support the idea that smaller groups of fans in this genre will pay extra for the unique experience the genre brings, it's ludicrous to assert that you can't support a title on less than millions.
The genre started with less than millions total, it's never been a genre that caters to the majority of gamers, because it evolved from a tabletop that never catered to a majority of consumers.
And my post still stands, unless people actually have numbers they are sort of pissing in the wind.
Final Fantasy 14 is sub (and I believe it's variable depending on how many characters you have) and they still have a cash shop.
Dark Age of Camelot ... yup, sub. How many people work on that game? is it 5? 10? 30? I bet it's closer to the lower number than the higher number.
And yes, I agree that game companies need to have more realistic ideas about their revenue. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a variety of truths as far as how much things cost.
Do we know the entire team at Visionary Realms and what they do? That will help one with ballpark salaries right there. I think they develop remotely so don't have an office is that correct? If they do have an office where is it? That will help ballpark commercial real estate.
None of this is really hard, just go through everything that is a cost and one can at least see what they will most likely have to make.
So will 10k subs do it? We know that subs always go down over time. What happens if subs go below a certain mark? Will they add cash shop then or close the game?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
which makes sense, a stash tab costs $3 ( $4 for premium ) while armor sets cost upwards of $120 to complete a look.
in the same post on Reddit where Chris said cosmetics fuel their development he also stated the average number of tabs per player was 7 not including the 4 free ones. ( that would be a total of 11 for you quick math types )
The point is, MTs have nothing to do with mere success or failure. It has to do with degree of profit being extracted from the project. Nothing more. There are multiple examples of success and failures utilizing both subs as primary revenue and MTs. That's not the crux of the issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But it's just an example- just like 20K or 50K subs would be. The number of subs is not the issue. I just want to challenge the idea that the sub-only model is dead.
It might be dead for the AAA studios with grand expectations since they discovered that they can make much more money with predatory practices. But what about the independent games like CU, Pantheon and others?
The mere fact that they are focused on catering to certain sub-segments of the MMO playing public (unlike the AAA counterparts who focus more on having something for everyone) should temper their own expectations.
I remain unconvinced that the sub-only model is dead and if it's going to resurface successfully somewhere it will be precisely in games like Pantheon and CU.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I have 32 employees making an average of about 54k a year + benefits.
For last fiscal year which ended Nov 30 2017: My sales were 4.2 million and my gross profit from that was 1.34 million. Come the end of March we'll see what my accountant has whittled that down to, but on average my net profit = about 15% of my sales.
Every item I sell requires raw material and requires labor and very expensive machinery for fabrication.
I'd imagine that 4.2 million in yearly revenue is a pittance for an MMO.
edit:
You find that funny @Gdemami ?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
This idea that you need to be challenging MOBAs and Destiny to be considered a success as an MMORPG is just out of touch with reality.
For a team of 18? I don't think that 50k is horrible at all. It isn't even that 10k is horrible, but you're like peppering your statements with caveats at that point.
At $100k per year per person (which is below average for a software dev in the US), and a labor burden of 50%, which is probably pretty conservative, you're talking about like $2.7 million. However, what is the development cadence like on Pantheon? Is it super agile and quick? Is it quick enough to satisfy their subscribers? I don't know. So what does a sustaining team "look" like? I have no clue.
So the this cost is probably fairly conservative based on average salaries as well as a lower labor burden (especially for software where licensing costs and equipment is more costly). That value would get you down to like 15,000 subscribers. However, as mentioned here already, it's tough to attract talent to a company that's just treading water, too.
I feel like I offended you some way, which I'm not trying to do. Idealistically, I'd LOVE to play a sub-only game. However, realistically, I don't see myself playing any one game exclusively, either. I actually hop between 2 games right now as it is, so adding another means even less time. So I'm not saying subscriptions can't work. I think they're ideal for MMOs. However, I think the rhetoric of people claiming that we "..shouldn't believe the marketing..." only really illustrates that people don't understand the costs associated with running a business.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Yeah it is, I missed that. Also, @laserit , I believe, is in Canada, where those socialist bastards get free healthcare!!! So the benefits part would most certainly be more costly in the US. To what degree? I don't know. I know that for me, for my family, it would cost me $300 per month for vision, prescriptions and dental, and I'm also one socialist bastards too. Then it's mostly software licensing, which varies, but it's universally expensive, lol.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
2) Exception that proves the rule
Me thinks folks aren't actually calculating accurate "costs" when they quote things like 4 million needed. Software licensing is expensive, but logistics for delivery and manufacturing are almost non-existent today.
This is a good thing and success for the Pantheons and CUs will be measure in the 10s of thousands to low 6 figures as stable populations IMO.
Coincidental with this is a growing fatigue by the more faithful (for lack of a better word lol) MMORPGers with piece meal gaming. I think most of us would like to achieve whatever extras we like in these games - be it costumes, mounts, houses... whatever - by game playing means.
So I think it's very realistic and the timing is very good for old-fashioned sub only to make a come back. We'd even get blowhards like Jim "fucking" Sterling praising the shit out of an "honest all-inclusive sub" in the current anti gouging climate.
My own personal interest in this is actually selfish if I'm going to be honest: I want it so that the toxic, casual and whiny tourists are weeded out in a way that F2P or B2P games can't.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
He's speaking from his perspective, which seems lacking when talking about roughly half a pub's costs to release AAA titles. Stop ignoring that, it makes you look just as guilty of misleading or being disingenuous to prove your side.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Are those costs for the employee only, or does it figure in rental space, equipment, etc., etc? I swear that for some reason I thought healthcare was like $15k annually all on its own, but I wasn't sure.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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That doesn't figure in rental space, equipment, training, etc.
I should add, since @Laserit runs his own business can can chime in and give a ballpark of how much extra he pays per head.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo