Equipment power level and monsters difficulty

nerovergil

Equipment power level and monsters difficulty

Equipment power level

1. Starter eq

2. low

3. medium

4. high 

5. legendary

Everyone know good equipment means player become more powerful. 

Monsters difficulty.

Lets say this mmorpg have level scaling (player level get increases/down according to the map level). Example player level 1 and grinding at level 95-100 map. Player get uplevel to 95. only stats not skills, means a real lv 95 player has more skills/abilities than lv 95 uplevels. In the other hand, if level 100 player go to level 1-5 map, their level will be 5 (max since they are lv 100). More example if the player level 44, and leveling at level 40-45 area, they level stay 44.

There is 10 type of monster difficulty. Lets say the player has average mmorpg player skills and starter equipment

1. very easy (player can 1v2 them, can show off on youtube with outnumbered fight title with hp 40% left)

2. easy (player can 1v2 but barely survive)

3. normal (player 1v1 mob still win, 1v2 mobs player lose)

4. hard (player have 50% chance to win on 1v1 fight)

5. very hard (elite mobs. player cant win 1v1, player lose to the skill rotation and need to gank the mob 5v1, this also mini boss minion)

6. legendary 1 - map boss minion, player need 10v1

7. legendary 2 - world boss minion, player need 15v1

8. legendary 3 - mini boss, player need 20v1

9. legendary 4 - map boss, player need 30v1

10. legendary 5 - world boss - player need 40vs 1, freaking raid.

players with better/high/legendary equipment can fight the mobs better than newbie equipment, hence need less player to defeat powerful monsters.

waynejr2

words............

rojoArcueid

the difficulty i personally want in mmos is the dark souls difficulty, and i don't mean easy versus hard, but the actual mechanics of how it works. If i take my armor off i can die in one hit, but as long as i know how to evade attacks and the right moment to attack (know how to play my class) i can kill anything.

For that to work i think devs have to change how the game registers damage. Moving away from an arrow or fireball just to see it curve and hit you is an antiquated system that prevents both combat and difficulty from evolving in mmos, IMO.

Just some thoughts. This could make solo encounters more challenging and still be fair, group encounters more team/stategy dependant (instead of just tank and spank with cc and heal spam), and more fun in general. 

nerovergil

what is level?

your higher level than the mobs = easy win

same level with the mobs = 50/50

low level than the mobs = you lose

..what exist is monsters difficulty...

what most people complain about level scaling is, u cant 1 hit mobs anymore...it kills the sense of progression...u getting stronger but still cant one hit some weaker mob.

what if in the map/area there is various difficulty of mob..there is monster that u can do outnumbered fight, monster than u can only win in ganking and monster that u can win 1v1, not 1v2...

meaning u always strong, just because this is mmorpg, some monster need u to gank up to defeat them.

level no longer need experience, but achievement...meaning kill 100 mobs to gain level and skills..

because level make player stuck at one area (go to higher level get one shot die), but level scaling make player free to travel/leveling anywhere

nerovergil

For those who don't know, level scaling is when the game adjusts the level/strength of monsters to be roughly on par with you at all times, instead of having preset strengths.

It seems to be one of the main criticisms against Oblivion and soon Fallout 3. It doesn't really make sense to me... Without level scaling you have 3 possible outcomes:

1. You are way weaker than monsters. Get destroyed. Forced to go grind exp against weaker monsters. Boring.

2. You are roughly the same strength as monsters. Fair fight, skill required, but doable. Fun!

3. You are way stronger than monsters. Destroy them effortlessy by hammering a single attack button. Boring.

To me only number 2 is fun. And with level scaling it'll always be 2. In a completely non linear game like Oblivion it's the only way to ensure a proper difficulty level. Otherwise some players would just get murdered by going into the "strong" areas, others would get bored by wandering around the "weak" areas. Maybe a few would do places in the right order, but it would completely destroy the freedom to go anywhere. The devs, by setting the monster strength in each area would be setting the order you'd have to play each area. Which would suck, no longer an open world game really.

To me, level scaling is a great design choice. And if you hate it cos of Oblivion, I'd like to point out that Baldur's Gate 2, widely regarded as greatest WRPG of all time, did the exact same thing....

Kyleran

nerovergil said:

For those who don't know, level scaling is when the game adjusts the level/strength of monsters to be roughly on par with you at all times, instead of having preset strengths.

It seems to be one of the main criticisms against Oblivion and soon Fallout 3. It doesn't really make sense to me... Without level scaling you have 3 possible outcomes:

1. You are way weaker than monsters. Get destroyed. Forced to go grind exp against weaker monsters. Boring.

2. You are roughly the same strength as monsters. Fair fight, skill required, but doable. Fun!

3. You are way stronger than monsters. Destroy them effortlessy by hammering a single attack button. Boring.

To me only number 2 is fun. And with level scaling it'll always be 2. In a completely non linear game like Oblivion it's the only way to ensure a proper difficulty level. Otherwise some players would just get murdered by going into the "strong" areas, others would get bored by wandering around the "weak" areas. Maybe a few would do places in the right order, but it would completely destroy the freedom to go anywhere. The devs, by setting the monster strength in each area would be setting the order you'd have to play each area. Which would suck, no longer an open world game really.

To me, level scaling is a great design choice. And if you hate it cos of Oblivion, I'd like to point out that Baldur's Gate 2, widely regarded as greatest WRPG of all time, did the exact same thing....

To me number 2 is boring, same dull fight over and over, no way to increase productivity or efficiency.

The goal isn't to have "fun" fights, the goal is to progress, and the more efficiently I progress the happier I am.

Sometimes this means I have to fight mobs of my same level, one on one.  Other times due to either my skills, understanding of the game mechanics or even class type I can take on NPC's that are higher than me, perhaps 3, or 4 levels even.  If I"m a healer or support class, I might have to fight mobs a level below me and even then die occasionally, though grouping usually is best for such a character.

Or maybe I'll round up several mobs my same level, or a horde of mobs that are below me a bit, and burn them all down in a kiting, aoe ball of mass destruction. Or perhaps my pet holds the aggro while I kill from a distance, or even flee for my life if I've bitten off more than I can chew, leaving the pet behind to distract the mobs.

My progression speed per hour is what matters, and varying my techniques, including grouping with others and I can keep it at the top depending on resistances, whether they BAF or not, whether a roamer surprises me during a fight or even the enemy player attacking me unaware.

If a game has level scaling it robs me of all of the above, leaving me with the same, boring slog fight in every same situation, no way to speed it up, even by grouping, we kill at the same steady rate.......

Totally boring IMO, and why I despise level scaling......

Hluill

Well, I have a problem with all those mechanics...  I think hitpoints and levels gear are boring and lazy mechanics.  I basically ignore them to be able to enjoy the few MMOs I still play.  Designers have basically amputated to-hit rolls and replaced them with flashy damage-trading graphics.  

I want the to-hit and damage rolls brought back with open-ended results: even a noob or trash mob could roll winning attack.  I hate the idea of combat being trivial -- it's not really combat then.

I would love to see some innovation in combat mechanics.  A start would be dynamic to-hit and damage rolls.

Vrika

nerovergil said:

There is 10 type of monster difficulty. Lets say the player has average mmorpg player skills and starter equipment

.....

10. legendary 5 - world boss - player need 40vs 1, freaking raid.

players with better/high/legendary equipment can fight the mobs better than newbie equipment, hence need less player to defeat powerful monsters.

That part of your system is flawed. All raids would be easy to players with good equipment. All raiders just got bored and quit your game.

Vrika

nerovergil said:

6. legendary 1 - map boss minion, player need 10v1

7. legendary 2 - world boss minion, player need 15v1

Why are those named as minions?

If they're actual minions it makes no sense to limit them to 10v1 ad 15v1 difficulty because they won't ever be engaged unless a party believes it can also challenge the boss. If they're not actual minions then people would prefer a cooler name.

nerovergil

Vrika said:

nerovergil said:

6. legendary 1 - map boss minion, player need 10v1

7. legendary 2 - world boss minion, player need 15v1

Why are those named as minions?

If they're actual minions it makes no sense to limit them to 10v1 ad 15v1 difficulty because they won't ever be engaged unless a party believes it can also challenge the boss. If they're not actual minions then people would prefer a cooler name.

i dont know what other name to call, elite mobs follower perhaps?

Theocritus

really since WoW games have made mobs much easier...Those of us that tried to solo in games like FFXI and EQ remember fighting mobs your level was not easy.....In WoW I could easily handle mobs 4-5 levels above my character and it wasnt even raid geared for the most part.....I dont like scaling..>What i would rather do is just move to a new area to find monsters my level.

Cryomatrix

I agree with kyleran. 

What got me to quit WoW, not that I played it much, but I had an epiphany. I was fighting mobs and every time I leveled up, i fought a higher mob and the fight lasted the same amount of time, so I didn't think I was actually progressing. 

It was the same fight over and over again. 

I like Path of Exile and making my own weird builds, because if I do a build right, i'll go from taking a set time to kill mobs and bosses to mowing them down with ease. Since, I play hardcore, my level is progression as well as how fast I kill mobs. 

Cryomatrix

nerovergil

Equipment power level - rank 2 is upgraded version of rank 1

1. Starter eq - rank 1,2

2. low - rank 1,2

3. medium - rank 1,2

4. high -rank 1,2

5. legendary -rank 1,2

Everyone know good equipment means player become more powerful. 

Monsters difficulty.

Lets say this mmorpg have level scaling (player level get increases/down according to the map level). Example player level 1 and grinding at level 95-100 map. Player get uplevel to 95. only stats not skills, means a real lv 95 player has more skills/abilities than lv 95 uplevels. In the other hand, if level 100 player go to level 1-5 map, their level will be 5 (max since they are lv 100). More example if the player level 44, and leveling at level 40-45 area, they level stay 44.

There is 10 type of monster difficulty. Lets say the player has average mmorpg player skills and starter equipment

Beginner equipment will have harder time to fight them compared to player that have better equipment

0. ambient creature (harmless) - like rabbit, deer, etc

1. easy (player can 1v2 them, can show off on youtube with outnumbered fight title. )

example like - sewer rats, low level bandits, orc 

2. normal

example - elder rats, medium level bandits, medium level orc, etc

3. normal 2 (player 1v1 mob still win, 1v2 mobs player lose)

4. hard

5. very hard (elite mobs. player need to gank the mob 5v1, this also mini boss minion, high equipment or legendary player can solo this)

6. legendary 1 - map boss minion, player need 10v1

7. legendary 2 - world boss minion, player need 15v1

8. legendary 3 - mini boss, player need 20v1

9. legendary 4 - map boss, player need 30v1

10. legendary 5 - world boss - player need 40vs 1, freaking raid.

nerovergil

Cryomatrix said:

I agree with kyleran. 

What got me to quit WoW, not that I played it much, but I had an epiphany. I was fighting mobs and every time I leveled up, i fought a higher mob and the fight lasted the same amount of time, so I didn't think I was actually progressing. 

It was the same fight over and over again. 

I like Path of Exile and making my own weird builds, because if I do a build right, i'll go from taking a set time to kill mobs and bosses to mowing them down with ease. Since, I play hardcore, my level is progression as well as how fast I kill mobs. 

Cryomatrix

level scaling has progression.

example in level 1-5 or even 95-100

if u level 5, leveling at level 1-5, u fight mobs there better than when u level 1.

meanwhile, u find it harder to level at 95-100 map because u only get uplevel to the lowest level, 95

level scaling actually is for the player that love to create alternate character. so they wont stuck leveling at beginner map everytime.

the other problem is loot, if all level 1 want to level at lv 95-100 area because of better loot, nobody will be at beginner area. the solution is, give every map the same precious loot

anemo

Personally I think gear should be closer to military equipment.

Sure you could toss the best you have at any problem...  But then you're going to be spending resources to such an extent that you'll be behind after the fight, you'll start getting funny looks even from allies for being brutal (They just needed to be knocked down for police to pick them up, not splattered across 2 city blocks), and you'll come out of the fight weaker than when you entered due to expending unrecoverable resources.

Or you could analyze your situation, and only use the minimum investment to have a better than fair chance to win.   Then when everything goes right there's a good chance you'll come out financially ahead, you'll be unlikely to call down an escalation/third party/trap of some type, and you get to play something that is actually a bit challenging (since it's a game after all).

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EVE captures some of this.

If you're playing any kind of P&P game your DM should be giving you all sorts of limited resources like potions, scrolls, favors, allies, and similar.  This is actually a pretty important part in the games that I've played.