Final Fantasy XIV - The Case for Horizontal Progression - MMORPG.com

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Final Fantasy XIV - The Case for Horizontal Progression - MMORPG.com

A couple of weeks ago, I vowed to return to Eureka after I’d spent more time with it (You can read my initial impressions here). I’ve been back in a few of times since then, and, unfortunately, I’ve had a lot of trouble getting much further. The content isn’t for me, but I still love what it represents, and I’m happy it’s scratched an itch for a bygone era of MMOs that a lot of people miss.

Read the full story here

Vorthanion

I never thought I would ever hear a raider admit that other play styles deserve top tier rewards too. Gotta love games that claim to be casual yet put all the best rewards in content that isn't even remotely casual. Even more ironic when raiders in a casual game get pissy when casual gamers start asking for rewards for their play style that are of equal or slightly less quality. There is just something sick and twisted about developers making casual games that punish casual game play and reward hardcore and then rub insult into injury by raidsplaining that this is how it's always been done. Then developers wonder why casual gamers show no loyalty to their games?!

Kabulozo

If I want everybody to have the same power and same skill/chances, I'd rather play a battle royale instead of MMO. MMOs are about putting time and effort to make your and your allies characters stronger.

Piscore

Kabulozo said:

If I want everybody to have the same power and same skill/chances, I'd rather play a battle royale instead of MMO. MMOs are about putting time and effort to make your and your allies characters stronger.

Guild Wars 2 say hello.

Tiller

Kabulozo said:

If I want everybody to have the same power and same skill/chances, I'd rather play a battle royale instead of MMO. MMOs are about putting time and effort to make your and your allies characters stronger.

But not many people like having their time wasted either, it's a balance I guess.

Kabulozo

Piscore said:

Kabulozo said:

If I want everybody to have the same power and same skill/chances, I'd rather play a battle royale instead of MMO. MMOs are about putting time and effort to make your and your allies characters stronger.

Guild Wars 2 say hello.

I don't get why this game is called guild wars since there is no actual guild wars.

Piscore

Kabulozo said:

Piscore said:

Kabulozo said:

If I want everybody to have the same power and same skill/chances, I'd rather play a battle royale instead of MMO. MMOs are about putting time and effort to make your and your allies characters stronger.

Guild Wars 2 say hello.

I don't get why this game is called guild wars since there is no actual guild wars.

The name is from the obvious Guild Wars the first one game, and if you try to read some lore about it, you can find why they put this name, plus, the first one Guild Wars have... Guild Wars lol

Aeander

Vorthanion said:

I never thought I would ever hear a raider admit that other play styles deserve top tier rewards too. Gotta love games that claim to be casual yet put all the best rewards in content that isn't even remotely casual. Even more ironic when raiders in a casual game get pissy when casual gamers start asking for rewards for their play style that are of equal or slightly less quality. There is just something sick and twisted about developers making casual games that punish casual game play and reward hardcore and then rub insult into injury by raidsplaining that this is how it's always been done. Then developers wonder why casual gamers show no loyalty to their games?!

This is one of the reasons I stick with Guild Wars 2. No matter my play style, I am properly rewarded. 

Rommie10-284

Horizontal progression + Subscription = Riot. Square Enix would have to cancel the Fanfests if they tried to do this to the game.

However, I think idea is linked to the Buy to Play idea, and in/if the case I'll give it a fair shake. Final Fantasy: Guild Wars may eke out its own life once the dust settles. I wouldn't touch it, but there's a fair population of gamers who would.

But there's a very fair population of games who like FF14 as-is, and I don't think Yoshi-P is eager to drive them off intentionally. It may die a natural death as it ages out, and SE might think about FTP if it is getting near End of Life.

But if they drop a hint of doing it NOW, they'll all get set on fire, and why would they do that? There's a future FF16 or 17 to think about, why poison the potential playerbase by blowing up 14? It took a genuine miracle to recover 14 in the first place, so that's even more reason to not throw it away chasing edge $$$.

mmrv

Seems like a pretty inconsistent position that takes you down a slippery slope. I would argue if you are casual and don;t raid well do you really need raid gear? Like you say you want to be on par performance with your "Friends" but why? Just so you can say so??

Move forward next week further down the slippery slope well I want to be on par with my friends but i play the game 1 hour a week I dont see why I shouldnt instantly get max level and max gear? It's counter to everything our society is built upon even with trivial things like gaming earning your way via equal opportunity, its part of what makes it satisfying and rewarding.

you understand the reward part isnt the "gear" what makes it "rewarding" is that you know you earned it and once you remove that that feeling is gone. There is a reason some people play guild wars 2 where literally there is no gear progression at all, its turbo casual and there is no real rewards that matter, then others play ff14 and raid lets keep people having choices. If you don't care for the raids why care for the gear is the big question? all the other content in ff14 doesnt require hardcore raid gear.

Again your argument just seems really inconsistent and comes down to I want it because I want it. for reference I did play ff14 for a good amount of time never got into the hardcore raid stuff thought I would have liked to, I am not the hardcore raider trying to protect my loot, I am just pointing out there is immense amounts of things and items for you if you dont raid and none of it requires raid loot so again who cares if special powerful gear is locked behind hardcore raiding? You dont need it beyond "because i want it"!

MadFrenchie

mmrv said:

Seems like a pretty inconsistent position that takes you down a slippery slope. I would argue if you are casual and don;t raid well do you really need raid gear? Like you say you want to be on par performance with your "Friends" but why? Just so you can say so??

Move forward next week further down the slippery slope well I want to be on par with my friends but i play the game 1 hour a week I dont see why I shouldnt instantly get max level and max gear? It's counter to everything our society is built upon even with trivial things like gaming earning your way via equal opportunity, its part of what makes it satisfying and rewarding.

you understand the reward part isnt the "gear" what makes it "rewarding" is that you know you earned it and once you remove that that feeling is gone. There is a reason some people play guild wars 2 where literally there is no gear progression at all, its turbo casual and there is no real rewards that matter, then others play ff14 and raid lets keep people having choices. If you don't care for the raids why care for the gear is the big question? all the other content in ff14 doesnt require hardcore raid gear.

Again your argument just seems really inconsistent and comes down to I want it because I want it. for reference I did play ff14 for a good amount of time never got into the hardcore raid stuff thought I would have liked to, I am not the hardcore raider trying to protect my loot, I am just pointing out there is immense amounts of things and items for you if you dont raid and none of it requires raid loot so again who cares if special powerful gear is locked behind hardcore raiding? You dont need it beyond "because i want it"!

I would add the reasoning comes from raids traditionally being billed as the penultimate activity in an MMORPG.  Only a few MMORPGs haven't included raiding as the final form of PvE content, so people naturally think they're missing out if they don't experience it.

I'd like to see a game where raiding, small group, PvP, and solo play all had their own distinct paths independent of one another.  For Raiding, it would obviously be the epic lootz, but for PvP players it could be a statue in the faction city or some kind of special trophy.  Play to the natural desires of each individual group, and keep the lines of progression distinct and separate so that a player that's raided can enjoy an entirely new kind of progression system if they decide to start PvPing.  Many games have started in that direction, but few (if any) have been built for that purpose from the ground up.

Limnic

I'm still confused why raids are held aloft like they seem to be so often. Even at it's peak WoW's raiding generally topped out at ~20% of the active user base participating in the most current ones. A common trait shared across many titles that hinge on raids as the major form of endgame. It's just never been a truly popular activity for the majority in spite of the apparent focus around it.

Also not sure what the relation between horizontal progression and casual is supposed to be...

Tiller

Like I said, this game should just go buy to play already. It's an old game and won't bring very many new players in willing to pay monthly for this. Eventually once the older subs begin to drop off, the game will start to die. Unlike WoW, it mostly only appeals to Final Fantasy fans.

Kajidourden

I don't think that all of the best gear should be locked behind raids, once that happens there is the "raid or die" mentality.

I think what we think of as raid gear should be spread out amongst all kinds of different content types personally. 

I am a raider and my reason for raiding is the challenge/excitement I get from it.  Rewards are always going to need to be a thing for other people I am aware, but personally?  I see raids as the final bosses in an offline RPG.  You don't get anything for beating them except for knowing that you did it in most games.

I would rather raid gear be spread out so that you get more people doing more things instead of this funneling that has occurred in today's mmorpg-scape.

mmrv

Torval said:

mmrv said:

Seems like a pretty inconsistent position that takes you down a slippery slope. I would argue if you are casual and don;t raid well do you really need raid gear? Like you say you want to be on par performance with your "Friends" but why? Just so you can say so??



Move forward next week further down the slippery slope well I want to be on par with my friends but i play the game 1 hour a week I dont see why I shouldnt instantly get max level and max gear? It's counter to everything our society is built upon even with trivial things like gaming earning your way via equal opportunity, its part of what makes it satisfying and rewarding.



you understand the reward part isnt the "gear" what makes it "rewarding" is that you know you earned it and once you remove that that feeling is gone. There is a reason some people play guild wars 2 where literally there is no gear progression at all, its turbo casual and there is no real rewards that matter, then others play ff14 and raid lets keep people having choices. If you don't care for the raids why care for the gear is the big question? all the other content in ff14 doesnt require hardcore raid gear.



Again your argument just seems really inconsistent and comes down to I want it because I want it. for reference I did play ff14 for a good amount of time never got into the hardcore raid stuff thought I would have liked to, I am not the hardcore raider trying to protect my loot, I am just pointing out there is immense amounts of things and items for you if you dont raid and none of it requires raid loot so again who cares if special powerful gear is locked behind hardcore raiding? You dont need it beyond "because i want it"!

Progression raiding is a horrible design trope, but it's the one they went with. They're stuck with it now. It doesn't make sense to redesign a bad progression system from the ground up a third time especially when they have a fanbase that will plays and pays for it in the current form.

Absolutely is not a terrible design trope and it came to exist for the very reason its a good design feature. Aka PEOPLE WANTED IT. If its not your cup of tea okay dont participate in it? There are plenty of other activities too keep you busy and provide you with rewards and progression and plenty of other games. I could argue crafting is a terrible design trope because i dont care for crafting and all the good stuff locked behind it, I can make the same argument for every feature in a game.

Its comes down to this you don't like it dont participate in it, the game offers plenty of rewards that are commensurate for the other activities "you dont raid , you don;t need raid loot" so stop pouting there is a gameplay choice for other players that you are not interested in, no different than i might not care for crafting so I just dont craft.

Small visions like your is what leads to boring bland uninteresting games we have today because "casual players" want it all so we cant have complex character development "it overwhelms the casual" literally everything casual ends up watering down the games and for those that play heavy amounts it results in boring bland games. Seen it both ways and when you make top loot easily accessible those same casual players start complaining "i already got top loot I am bored ZZZZ no content".

Its not a bad progression system and it has content for many different audiences there is raid gear light content and people to get geared, maybe you dont care for it but it doesnt make it horrible stop trying to become the thought police for games as well as social justice issues. Everything doesnt have to meet your personal desires. The top 2 mmorpgs have the exact same raid/loot philosophy and both are in such a demand they are the ones that can support a subscription based model pretty sure its not a coincidence

mmrv

Tiller said:

Like I said, this game should just go buy to play already. It's an old game and won't bring very many new players in willing to pay monthly for this. Eventually once the older subs begin to drop off, the game will start to die. Unlike WoW, it mostly only appeals to Final Fantasy fans.

Sure man just say whatever you feel like making up and will it to be true? Its like the second-third most popular mmo and has been for a few years. So no it shouldnt go buy to play the current model is fantastic and the proof is in its success. Just another freeloaders "i dont want to pay for anything everyone should work for free to make me games i can play for free.

Cryolitycal

Why would you give top end gear for easier content? Doesn't make absolutely any sense. These games had so much success initially because they were pure meritocratic systems where one (or few) could rise meteorically above others and enjoy their success.

I don't see why a part of the human race has such a difficulty acknowledging things like competition and hierarchies. Some people are good at specific stuff. Let them be rewarded accordingly. If you desire the same rewards simply prove yourself worthy by completing the same content.

There is this dumb trope circulating that says people raid for fun and to socialize, and I'm telling you that 10 years in the raiding business are enough to understand that this cannot be further from the truth. I've seen the most "social" types of raiders secretly raging for a lost roll on an item, and I've witnessed people that ended with Method and Serenity being the worst of the gear hoes out there, while they advertised themselves to be playing solely for the guild position in the rankings.

Yeah, sure Guild position was great, but even greater was them scoring top logs and being the first or second on warcraftlogs. Human vanity has no end. Just recognize, move on.

Tiller

mmrv said:

Tiller said:

Like I said, this game should just go buy to play already. It's an old game and won't bring very many new players in willing to pay monthly for this. Eventually once the older subs begin to drop off, the game will start to die. Unlike WoW, it mostly only appeals to Final Fantasy fans.

Sure man just say whatever you feel like making up and will it to be true? Its like the second-third most popular mmo and has been for a few years. So no it shouldnt go buy to play the current model is fantastic and the proof is in its success. Just another freeloaders "i dont want to pay for anything everyone should work for free to make me games i can play for free.

No reason to be so salty about it, no one is making anything up. You are watching it happen right now with the level 35 trial, soon to be 50. Yes the game has a lot of players currently, but it's not sustainable long term. I don't know why you white-knights don't get that.


"FFXIV Game Director Naoki Yoshida boasted about the game’s high player count — more on that in a bit — and the difficulty in convincing players to pay a subscription fee in 2017. The game does allow players to play for free to level 35, and Yoshida says that limit could be raised to level 50 when the game’s next expansion launches."

https://www.mmobomb.com/news/yoshida-ffxiv-go-free-play-80-90-players-want/

For him to even consider that you know he is seeing numbers you can't see. So, my point still stands, buy to play is better than free to play.

What does it mater to you anyways? You still play the exact same game with its current cash shop, and buy the expansions you want, minus the sub. But then again 'A fool and his money are soon parted'??

 So go ahead and keep paying it for now. Nothing in that game is worth $12.99 or $14.99 per month once you max and do all the content and nothing will change the inevitable. Most reasonable people know this, unless you just have a hard time letting go of something lol. Most people know they can spend that money elsewhere on other games.

Albatroes

Lets be honest about gamers from 10+ years in the mmorpg scene (myself included), its about slight elitism. The "grind" was tolerable because that was really the only kind of content you were going to be doing for 3+ years (or 10+ years in FFXI's case), so your "progression" made doing said content easier while others were still struggling through it. So you might have a little ego clearing stuff on a regular basis while others have spent years to accomplish. On the flip side to that, there was actual community respect. If you saw someone with a rare piece of gear, you knew what they had to go through not only fight wise but also rng wise to get it. Gaming the past 5 years or so has no real respect. People can try stuff, fail, and then wait for devs to either nerf it or just make it completely irrelevant in a few months anyway. This is kind of why Eureka is pointless. That's great if you get all your stuff boosted to Anemos stage or whatever and it'll probably persist into the next Eureka, but that's kind of pointless if you can just cap your tomes and wait, getting the same or better gear with double the time but a quarter of the effort. And in case someone hasn't really noticed by now, most casuals dont really care about how long it may take to get something, just the effort required to get it. The vocal minority casuals will QQ on forums of course but they certainly aren't the majority.

Tiller

Albatroes said:

Lets be honest about gamers from 10+ years in the mmorpg scene (myself included), its about slight elitism. The "grind" was tolerable because that was really the only kind of content you were going to be doing for 3+ years (or 10+ years in FFXI's case), so your "progression" made doing said content easier while others were still struggling through it. So you might have a little ego clearing stuff on a regular basis while others have spent years to accomplish. On the flip side to that, there was actual community respect. If you saw someone with a rare piece of gear, you knew what they had to go through not only fight wise but also rng wise to get it. Gaming the past 5 years or so has no real respect. People can try stuff, fail, and then wait for devs to either nerf it or just make it completely irrelevant in a few months anyway. This is kind of why Eureka is pointless. That's great if you get all your stuff boosted to Anemos stage or whatever and it'll probably persist into the next Eureka, but that's kind of pointless if you can just cap your tomes and wait, getting the same or better gear with double the time but a quarter of the effort. And in case someone hasn't really noticed by now, most casuals dont really care about how long it may take to get something, just the effort required to get it. The vocal minority casuals will QQ on forums of course but they certainly aren't the majority.

Actually casuals ARE the majority these days bro, where the hell have you been? Look at the games we get as of late. It's the tail end of millennials to blame. The under 25yr gamers taking over and most don't play a game more than 3 months. See youtube and you will see the lack of commitment to one game beyond the FOTM. Casual cash shop games and loot boxes are not going away, see Fortnight. Gear is nothing more than a skin to be purchased in a cash shop. Hardcore overachievers are a dying breed and Gen Xers are the last of them.

dasX82

In less than a week i was able to get all my gear and get the mount and the pet, not that hard. " />

sausagemix

mmrv said:

Seems like a pretty inconsistent position that takes you down a slippery slope. I would argue if you are casual and don;t raid well do you really need raid gear? Like you say you want to be on par performance with your "Friends" but why? Just so you can say so??



Move forward next week further down the slippery slope well I want to be on par with my friends but i play the game 1 hour a week I dont see why I shouldnt instantly get max level and max gear? It's counter to everything our society is built upon even with trivial things like gaming earning your way via equal opportunity, its part of what makes it satisfying and rewarding.



you understand the reward part isnt the "gear" what makes it "rewarding" is that you know you earned it and once you remove that that feeling is gone. There is a reason some people play guild wars 2 where literally there is no gear progression at all, its turbo casual and there is no real rewards that matter, then others play ff14 and raid lets keep people having choices. If you don't care for the raids why care for the gear is the big question? all the other content in ff14 doesnt require hardcore raid gear.



Again your argument just seems really inconsistent and comes down to I want it because I want it. for reference I did play ff14 for a good amount of time never got into the hardcore raid stuff thought I would have liked to, I am not the hardcore raider trying to protect my loot, I am just pointing out there is immense amounts of things and items for you if you dont raid and none of it requires raid loot so again who cares if special powerful gear is locked behind hardcore raiding? You dont need it beyond "because i want it"!

Totally. The biggest problem with casual players (which I consider myself) is that we don't take the time to consider WHAT having equivalent gear actually does for us in MMOs. In FFXIV, top raiding gear doesnt really change the game much except gives you an entry point into the next tier of raiding. Raiding gear is a system that is self perpetuating so if you have little to zero interest in raiding itself you basically are holding higher stats that you arent taking advantage of.

Conveniently the author left out the facts that:

-Most FFXIV raid armor is only "top" for 2-3 months
-Most raiders do not get full sets of raid gear and must supplement with tome and crafted. The drop ratios and group comps are accompanied by the wide range of levels of dedication to help others gear up just doesnt work that way
-raids get watered down after a short time, which WAS a step to give casual players a chance at raid gear
-the majority of game content can be finished with little or no issue with tome and dungeon grade gear and competent party. Youre only talking the difference of minutes; with the goal of speed runs and fully raid geared groups

Unfortunately, most MMORPGs are stat based, combat systems for progression. The HARDEST challenge in an online game like that involves group coordination, while irking out high numbers while following complex layered mechanics. If that is known as the pinnacle of challenge in a game with armor that serves the purpose of boosting numbers, what activity could possibly offer the same challenge? Nothing can.

mmrv

Tiller said:

mmrv said:

Tiller said:

Like I said, this game should just go buy to play already. It's an old game and won't bring very many new players in willing to pay monthly for this. Eventually once the older subs begin to drop off, the game will start to die. Unlike WoW, it mostly only appeals to Final Fantasy fans.

Sure man just say whatever you feel like making up and will it to be true? Its like the second-third most popular mmo and has been for a few years. So no it shouldnt go buy to play the current model is fantastic and the proof is in its success. Just another freeloaders "i dont want to pay for anything everyone should work for free to make me games i can play for free.

No reason to be so salty about it, no one is making anything up. You are watching it happen right now with the level 35 trial, soon to be 50. Yes the game has a lot of players currently, but it's not sustainable long term. I don't know why you white-knights don't get that.


"FFXIV Game Director Naoki Yoshida boasted about the game’s high player
count — more on that in a bit — and the difficulty in convincing players
to pay a subscription fee in 2017. The game does allow players to play
for free to level 35, and Yoshida says that limit could be raised to
level 50 when the game’s next expansion launches."

https://www.mmobomb.com/news/yoshida-ffxiv-go-free-play-80-90-players-want/

For him to even consider that you know he is seeing numbers you can't see. So, my point still stands, buy to play is better than free to play.

What does it mater to you anyways? You still play the exact same game with its current cash shop, and buy the expansions you want, minus the sub. But then again 'A fool and his money are soon parted'??

 So go ahead and keep paying it for now. Nothing in that game is worth $12.99 or $14.99 per month once you max and do all the content and nothing will change the inevitable. Most reasonable people know this, unless you just have a hard time letting go of something lol. Most people know they can spend that money elsewhere on other games.

I disagree big difference between a free trial and removing subscriptions, you might not realize it but a good portion of players actually prefer a sub based model and enjoy it, infact RIFT just specifically turned their game from buy to play to offer a SUB based choice and so far its a resounding success for a very old dated game.

Again if you dont like it dont sign up clearly a very large portion of MMO players still greatly enjoy what a sub based model offers, you enjoy your buy2play games, but stop speaking on behalf of the world about what everyone else should do because that is what you want lol. I play bdo casually I love the b2p it offers, then i might sub for ff14 for 6 months both offer a unique experience which I like the choice of having and I will always be a strong voice against those who claim to represent everyone or demand things conform to their wishes when it reduces choice for everyone else.

We can agree to disagree and btw you will know if I am salty, you seem to confuse salty with simply disagreeing learn to accept others might disagree with you. You might disagree with me that is fine its civil discourse and discussions and choice that is the backbone of true freedoms and civil rights. Good luck and take care.

acidblood

One of my first reactions when Eureka came out was 'why is the gear not i365?' ... A few days later I understood why; because you can basically AFK your way through it on the 'NM train'.

I still don't know if this design was deliberate (the Devs have shown no signs of wanting to change it), but it's a massive shame, as with meaningful rewards (and better design) Eureka could have meant something (even if it was just an alternative to Raid / the Dungeon grind).

Sadly though, as it is, Eureka is nothing but easily discarded side content* that serves no purpose beyond killing time... which I guess is fine if you have time to kill, but personally I'm just playing other games and waiting for the inevitable nerf (assuming of course FFXIV is worth going back to at that point).

*Which, BTW, is nothing 'new' to FFXIV; it's basically just a mass FATE grind. The whole party centric, chain mob kill aspect is so pathetically unrewarding (both mechancially and in terms of XP and drops) that it may as well not exist.

Tiller

mmrv said:

Tiller said:

mmrv said:

Tiller said:

Like I said, this game should just go buy to play already. It's an old game and won't bring very many new players in willing to pay monthly for this. Eventually once the older subs begin to drop off, the game will start to die. Unlike WoW, it mostly only appeals to Final Fantasy fans.

Sure man just say whatever you feel like making up and will it to be true? Its like the second-third most popular mmo and has been for a few years. So no it shouldnt go buy to play the current model is fantastic and the proof is in its success. Just another freeloaders "i dont want to pay for anything everyone should work for free to make me games i can play for free.

No reason to be so salty about it, no one is making anything up. You are watching it happen right now with the level 35 trial, soon to be 50. Yes the game has a lot of players currently, but it's not sustainable long term. I don't know why you white-knights don't get that.


"FFXIV Game Director Naoki Yoshida boasted about the game’s high player
count — more on that in a bit — and the difficulty in convincing players
to pay a subscription fee in 2017. The game does allow players to play
for free to level 35, and Yoshida says that limit could be raised to
level 50 when the game’s next expansion launches."

https://www.mmobomb.com/news/yoshida-ffxiv-go-free-play-80-90-players-want/

For him to even consider that you know he is seeing numbers you can't see. So, my point still stands, buy to play is better than free to play.

What does it mater to you anyways? You still play the exact same game with its current cash shop, and buy the expansions you want, minus the sub. But then again 'A fool and his money are soon parted'??

 So go ahead and keep paying it for now. Nothing in that game is worth $12.99 or $14.99 per month once you max and do all the content and nothing will change the inevitable. Most reasonable people know this, unless you just have a hard time letting go of something lol. Most people know they can spend that money elsewhere on other games.

I disagree big difference between a free trial and removing subscriptions, you might not realize it but a good portion of players actually prefer a sub based model and enjoy it, infact RIFT just specifically turned their game from buy to play to offer a SUB based choice and so far its a resounding success for a very old dated game.

Again if you dont like it dont sign up clearly a very large portion of MMO players still greatly enjoy what a sub based model offers, you enjoy your buy2play games, but stop speaking on behalf of the world about what everyone else should do because that is what you want lol. I play bdo casually I love the b2p it offers, then i might sub for ff14 for 6 months both offer a unique experience which I like the choice of having and I will always be a strong voice against those who claim to represent everyone or demand things conform to their wishes when it reduces choice for everyone else.

We can agree to disagree and btw you will know if I am salty, you seem to confuse salty with simply disagreeing learn to accept others might disagree with you. You might disagree with me that is fine its civil discourse and discussions and choice that is the backbone of true freedoms and civil rights. Good luck and take care.

All I read was lalalalala while you stuck you fingers in your ears and proclaimed  you couldn't hear anything. It's not just "my" opinion, other than I hate F2P and I think b2p is better. Read the article I linked. Naoki Yoshida the game's director said he would certainly consider it (free to play) if players want it, which in the business world is code for "if we feel we want to expand the way we monetize the game". Years ago it wasn't even up for consideration by him. How are you just ignoring the fact that he even mentioned that? I have literally played hundreds of MMOs, and yes I have subbed to many hybrid sub games and full on subscription games like SWG, EQ 1-2, UO, SWTOR, WoW, and this game off and on for years. I've actually dropped way more money in aa game like GW2 than I would have ever spent paying a subscription for a game like that,and yes BDO, and I don' mind doing so. I'm sure that there would be a sub option available for those who want it for FFXIV kind of like ESO. The global trend is clear, ignore it all you want.

Scot

Sorting out rewards for the various gameplay that MMOs get you involved in is pretty basic stuff. Having said that, FFXIV is not the first major MMO where they got it wrong, in fact that mistake is not as unusual as it should be.

You have to be able to see gameplay rewards through the players eyes and if the reward is underrated or skewed then so will be player response.