Right. You are absolutely right that people going to various parts of the US need to adjust their expectations of what "coke" means based on the region they are in because "coke" is a word actively used in all that regions with varying definitions based on where and how it's used.
So say that in the FBI "Money Making Operation" aka counterfeiters. Well then if they say "We are going to raid an MMO today" and I start talking about how it can't be an MMO as there aren't even 100 people involved I'm wrong because I'm using the word outside the proper context.
However when MMO.com reviews Diablo as an MMO their target audience is MMO players. MMO players have a different understood meaning of MMO so they are wrong. I can't just make up a definition of a word that has a different understood meaning, start using it that way, and then when I get called on it say "The language has evolved!"
Changing the meaning of language to allow for a new definition of a word requires a significant group of people adopt the new meaning and start using the word in that context. Completely replacing the old meaning means so many people start using the word in the new context that you are no longer understood by most anyone if you use it in the old context.
I think what we've had in the MMO industry is a few businesses attempt to push a new meaning in order to broaden their target audience, and the vast majority of players (about 90% based on polls we've done here) say "No. No that's not what MMO means." So as of yet their attempts have failed to redefine the term in any way.
I'm pretty sure that neither @BillMurphy nor I give a hoot about redefining anything, mainly due to a wild variety in what people believe they are, hence the weekly arguments. We also figure that most people, even new-to-the-site folks, understand what they're looking for when they read the lettering that categorizes the games on the list. I don't know about Bill, but I choose to believe people can think for themselves.
We have to broaden our scope to pay the bills. End of report.
For what it's worth, we are revisiting the Games List and the categories. But don't look for any changes in content. We simply can't afford it.
Noted. Notice I also referred to MMO.com and not MMORPG.com. Not everything is an attack on you guys. There still is a trend in sites like superdata to call League of Legends an MMO that you don't see echoed by the vast majority of players. You guys seem to be trying to clear up the misunderstanding and that's good.
Noted. Notice I also referred to MMO.com and not MMORPG.com. Not everything is an attack on you guys. There still is a trend in sites like superdata to call League of Legends an MMO that you don't see echoed by the vast majority of players. You guys seem to be trying to clear up the misunderstanding and that's good.
While I understand you were speaking generally about MMO sites, you're posting on our site and a lot of the commentary has been directed at MMORPG.com. It's in our best interest to clarify our position on our forums for our readers.
Unfortunately, "RPG" seems to mean something different on the lips of everyone who says the word and there is no clear definition I can find anywhere.
For instance, many people say without leveling a game is not an RPG. However I can find no reliable source nor consensus on that.
In a recent thread it's implied that action combat removes games further from the term RPG. However this does not seem to jive with any sources I've found nor be something there is great consensus on.
Personally, I do not feel games that emphasize character progression over immersion into the game world should be classified as RPGs because they take the "roleplay" out of RPG. However there is no consensus on this and reaching that consensus would require disputing the RPG status of many games that currently hold the title.
MMO does have pretty good consensus. 90% of people seem to feel the "massive" qualifier is important, and there seems to be pretty good consensus at this point that it means hundreds or thousands of players sharing the same persistent world with many non-instanced areas they can interact.
Find me a clear definition of RPG most people can agree on and we can have the same kind of discussion for it.
Unfortunately, "RPG" seems to mean something different on the lips of everyone who says the word and there is no clear definition I can find anywhere.
For instance, many people say without leveling a game is not an RPG. However I can find no reliable source nor consensus on that.
In a recent threat it's implied that action combat removes games further from the term RPG. However this does not seem to jive with any sources I've found nor be something there is great consensus on.
Personally, I so not feel games that emphasize character progression over immersion into the game world should be classified as RPGs because they take the "roleplay" out of RPG. However there is no consensus on this and reaching that consensus would require disputing the RPG status of many games that currently hold the title.
MMO does have pretty good consensus. 90% of people seem to feel the "massive" qualifier is important, and there seems to be pretty good consensus at this point that it means hundreds or thousands of players sharing the same persistent world with many non-instanced areas they can interact.
Find me a clear definition of RPG most people can agree on and we can have the same kind of discussion for it.
I can do that without using MMO because it only refers to the scale of multiplayer. It's easy to discuss that without a catchphrase. I avoid the phrase in article writing as much as I can.
I disagree with this point. MMO isn't only referring to the scale of multiplayer. Let's take League of Legends. Even if you could have 64v64 matches in LoL with bigger map size to account for additional players but kept everything else the same, that wouldn't make it a MMO. It'd still be a moba.
The "consensus", 90%, and the rest is stuff you made up and how you feel about it but not factually based truth.
Actually I didn't make it up. A poll was taken on these forums in which 90% of people agree games like Destiny are not MMOs.
I'll have to agree with Torval, just because there is a poll of a certain demographic doesn't mean that it's iron clad proof of anything.
First of all, some of the polls on this site by players aren't really very good. They either miss certain things or are leading as far as the interests/politics of the poll creator.
If that same poll were to be put on another gaming site would it come out the same? How about several? If that same poll was put on non-gaming sites but with a demographic who at least has familiarity with games would it be the same?
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stopped reading articles on this site mid 2014. Its full of adverts since then. cant blame you.
- and how else is a website that has employees supposed to pay them?
Cryomatrix
ps. The website doesn't sell anything except news to us. How do we buy news these days . . . by clicking and seeing advertisements . .. . . . . . . . duh. At least the advertisements aren't invasive like the shit that pops up on the screen randomly with no one to close it except clicking on it. Or the websites that put invisible ads on the screen.
Overall, this website is awesome.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I just think people like to argue, because they are extremely bored by the lack of good games to play.
I personally believe a lot of mmorpg players don't actually want to play mmorpgs. There was one thread of someone asking for people to recommend an mmorpg, when he was essentially listing out the very features that makeup an ARPG.
There was another further back where someone was going on about PVP and all i could think of, is MOBAs would be the perfect game for them to play.
People don't wanna play MMORPGs, they're confused. And some of them simply have rose colored glasses remembering the good times in their first mmo they ever played thinking they were better than they actually were(like the people who honestly think vanilla WoW raiding > modern WoW raiding).
So there isn't a lack of good games to play imo, it's people just not wanting to play them because they're not tagged as MMORPGs even though the fact is, they don't wanna play MMORPGs.
Yes, and that poll is garbage. We invent facts to support our agenda. If that's all you got out of the last two posts then I have nothing else to add.
I will admit that Scorchien is well known for garbage polls but as I have stated, there seems to be pretty good consensus among those who care about the term.
Now among people like you who say they don't care about the term there is no consensus but that is fine because there doesn't need to be. Words don't belong to people who don't use them. Words don't belong to people who don't care about them. Words belong to people who use them to convey a specific meaning in order to be understood by those who also are familiar with the word.
So frankly, when you demean the term by suggesting DOTA2 is an MMO, and right out admit you don't care about the term my reaction is "Ok. That's fine. Please excuse yourself from this discussion if you don't care. The rest of us are all pretty well in agreement DOTA 2 isn't an MMO and LOTRO is."
I just think people like to argue, because they are extremely bored by the lack of good games to play.
I personally believe a lot of mmorpg players don't actually want to play mmorpgs. There was one thread of someone asking for people to recommend an mmorpg, when he was essentially listing out the very features that makeup an ARPG.
If you want old outdated games that are still mmorpg's sure have fun. People nowadays sit around waiting for games to be released so they can pin their hopes on the next mmorpg savior. The niche is real and everybody wants the next messiah.
Also this has been defined in these arguments more time than I can count but I'll reassert it just incase you've missed it up until now.
MMO is not a measure of how many people play the game.
The massive in MMO measures how many players are capable of inhabiting the same area at the same time, as is nearly universally agreed upon by those who care about the term.
If we say that "massive" applies to the number of people playing the game in separate areas then the term either becomes a synonym for blockbuster, or, it loses all meaning and applies to literally every online multiplayer game ever made.
Where if you keep the "massive" to mean what it's meant for years now, the term stays meaningful and can actually be used for something.
Also this has been defined in these arguments more time than I can count but I'll reassert it just incase you've missed it up until now.
MMO is not a measure of how many people play the game.
The massive in MMO measures how many players are capable of inhabiting the same area at the same time, as is nearly universally agreed upon by those who care about the term.
If we say that "massive" applies to the number of people playing the game in separate areas then the term either becomes a synonym for blockbuster, or, it loses all meaning and applies to literally every online multiplayer game ever made.
Where if you keep the "massive" to mean what it's meant for years now, the term stays meaningful and can actually be used for something.
I’d say that’s not true. If there were a space game that had a million simultaneous players but there were spread out across the stars and only 25 were on my planet (but I could travel the stars as well) I would definitely consider that an MMO.
Different servers is another story, but to me it’s about sharing the same gameworld (universe, shard...) as opposed to all standing in 1 spot.
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I’d say that’s not true. If there were a space game that had a million simultaneous players but there were spread out across the stars and only 25 were on my planet (but I could travel the stars as well) I would definitely consider that an MMO.
Different servers is another story, but to me it’s about sharing the same gameworld (universe, shard...) as opposed to all standing in 1 spot.
The key word in what I said is "capable":
"The massive in MMO measures how many players are capable of inhabiting the same area at the same time, as is nearly universally agreed upon by those who care about the term."
So there may only be 25 people on your planet, but more of those millions of people could come there if they wanted to.
Again... I would not agree with “at the same time”. Most games do not allow for mass amounts of people in the same place. Either they mechanically restrict it via instances or simple lag prevents it.
The first game that jumps out at me is EQ2 at launch. After a certain number of people were in a zone it spawned a clone instance. The second would be Darkfall where the leader of Hyperion would ask his hundreds of followers to log on when they were under attack, simply to cause the attackers to lag and crash (leading to off hour sieging).
Both of those games were considered MMOs. There are plenty of other examples.
Sure ideally we’d love to have a million players all in the same city. No doubt that I prefer non-instanced games but technology isn’t quite there yet (one reason people are excited for Camelot Unchained is the hope of a few hundred people fighting in the same spot). So to me an MMO is about how many people can play in my shared world as opposed to how many people can be standing in the same area at the same time.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In both those instances I think the number of players in the same area still constituted the game being massive. EQ2 I know less well but DFO I personally took part in some pretty big sieges.
Have a battle of this scale on Destiny:
This one is perhaps an even better illustration of why Darkfall is an MMO:
The "consensus", 90%, and the rest is stuff you made up and how you feel about it but not factually based truth.
Actually I didn't make it up. A poll was taken on these forums in which 90% of people agree games like Destiny are not MMOs.
Yes, and that poll is garbage. We invent facts to support our agenda. If that's all you got out of the last two posts then I have nothing else to add.
What are the facts invented in that poll Torval, it was a very simple question and folks voiced there opinion , in sorry but you and others that think games like Destiny are MMOs are the extreme minority and the DEv/Pub( As they DO NOT Label Destiny an MMO) very intentionally ill add,) agree with the community .. The only facts being bent and twisted are on this site along with a very small minority trying to push an agenda that will not work , As Dev/Pub continue to push back and label there games correctly .. Its the minority that needs to change...
And its odd the only folks who criticize the poll again are a very very small minority who are unhappy it didnt go there way , Im certain if it had, there opinion of the poll would be very different and would be holding it up like Galadriels Light ..If the results were nearlyy 5-1 in there favor ..
In there endless fruitless arguments trying to make it and other like it MMO' s
In both those instances I think the number of players in the same area still constituted the game being massive. EQ2 I know less well but DFO I personally took part in some pretty big sieges.
Have a battle of this scale on Destiny:
This one is perhaps an even better illustration of why Darkfall is an MMO:
I played both. Both are MMOs... but yes DFO struggled when you had a hundred or more people in the same place at the same time.
Again, I simply do not see the "same place at the same time" as being the defining point of an MMO. To me it's more about sharing the same world with a massive amount of people. Can a massive amount of people share the same world? That is what I find as defining it. Not how many people can simultaneously be in the same spot.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again... I would not agree with “at the same time”. Most games do not allow for mass amounts of people in the same place. Either they mechanically restrict it via instances or simple lag prevents it.
The first game that jumps out at me is EQ2 at launch. After a certain number of people were in a zone it spawned a clone instance. The second would be Darkfall where the leader of Hyperion would ask his hundreds of followers to log on when they were under attack, simply to cause the attackers to lag and crash (leading to off hour sieging).
Both of those games were considered MMOs. There are plenty of other examples.
Sure ideally we’d love to have a million players all in the same city. No doubt that I prefer non-instanced games but technology isn’t quite there yet (one reason people are excited for Camelot Unchained is the hope of a few hundred people fighting in the same spot). So to me an MMO is about how many people can play in my shared world as opposed to how many people can be standing in the same area at the same time.
But there was a specific number of players designated, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The "consensus", 90%, and the rest is stuff you made up and how you feel about it but not factually based truth.
Actually I didn't make it up. A poll was taken on these forums in which 90% of people agree games like Destiny are not MMOs.
Yes, and that poll is garbage. We invent facts to support our agenda. If that's all you got out of the last two posts then I have nothing else to add.
What are the facts invented in that poll Torval, it was a very simple question and folks voiced there opinion , in sorry but you and others that think games like Destiny are MMOs are the extreme minority and the DEv/Pub( As they DO NOT Label Destiny an MMO) very intentionally ill add,) agree with the community .. The only facts being bent and twisted are on this site along with a very small minority trying to push an agenda that will not work , As Dev/Pub continue to push back and label there games correctly .. Its the minority that needs to change...
And its odd the only folks who criticize the poll again are a very very small minority who are unhappy it didnt go there way , Im certain if it had, there opinion of the poll would be very different and would be holding it up like Galadriels Light ..If the results were nearlyy 5-1 in there favor ..
In there endless fruitless arguments trying to make it and other like it MMO' s
Sorry, it's nothing personal. As data, it's garbage. It's not that you can't create a data worthy poll here, I don't think it's possible here period. So, even if your poll was good the results would still be garbage as a data point.
The invented facts are the conclusions drawn from faulty data analysis.
I have already addressed most of those other points (including your emotional accusations) in a couple previous posts above if you want to read my thoughts on that.
LMao ,, nothing emotional.. lol
The facts are the fcats the communtiy along with ATVI disagree with you and the very small minority that choose to push this agenda ..
tell ya what
Why dont you take all your thoughts and send them to ATVI in an email , telling them you think and that they have improperly labeled there game and would like to see it changed ..
Ill be waiting for the response ..
But of course that wont happen , and again the minority will think they know better than ATVI how to label there products ........... go figure
The "consensus", 90%, and the rest is stuff you made up and how you feel about it but not factually based truth.
Actually I didn't make it up. A poll was taken on these forums in which 90% of people agree games like Destiny are not MMOs.
Yes, and that poll is garbage. We invent facts to support our agenda. If that's all you got out of the last two posts then I have nothing else to add.
What are the facts invented in that poll Torval, it was a very simple question and folks voiced there opinion , in sorry but you and others that think games like Destiny are MMOs are the extreme minority and the DEv/Pub( As they DO NOT Label Destiny an MMO) very intentionally ill add,) agree with the community .. The only facts being bent and twisted are on this site along with a very small minority trying to push an agenda that will not work , As Dev/Pub continue to push back and label there games correctly .. Its the minority that needs to change...
And its odd the only folks who criticize the poll again are a very very small minority who are unhappy it didnt go there way , Im certain if it had, there opinion of the poll would be very different and would be holding it up like Galadriels Light ..If the results were nearlyy 5-1 in there favor ..
In there endless fruitless arguments trying to make it and other like it MMO' s
Sorry, it's nothing personal. As data, it's garbage. It's not that you can't create a data worthy poll here, I don't think it's possible here period. So, even if your poll was good the results would still be garbage as a data point.
The invented facts are the conclusions drawn from faulty data analysis.
I have already addressed most of those other points (including your emotional accusations) in a couple previous posts above if you want to read my thoughts on that.
LMao ,, nothing emotional.. lol
The facts are the fcats the communtiy along with ATVI disagree with you and the very small minority that choose to push this agenda ..
tell ya what
Why dont you take all your thoughts and send them to ATVI in an email , telling them you think and that they have improperly labeled there game and would like to see it changed ..
Ill be waiting for the response ..
But of course that wont happen , and again the minority will think they know better than ATVI how to label there products ........... go figure
I'm sorry, but @Torval is right. How many people answered your poll (I have not looked it)? How many MMO players are there? Is the percentage acceptable as facts for you? Not me, no how
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
So say that in the FBI "Money Making Operation" aka counterfeiters. Well then if they say "We are going to raid an MMO today" and I start talking about how it can't be an MMO as there aren't even 100 people involved I'm wrong because I'm using the word outside the proper context.
However when MMO.com reviews Diablo as an MMO their target audience is MMO players. MMO players have a different understood meaning of MMO so they are wrong. I can't just make up a definition of a word that has a different understood meaning, start using it that way, and then when I get called on it say "The language has evolved!"
Changing the meaning of language to allow for a new definition of a word requires a significant group of people adopt the new meaning and start using the word in that context. Completely replacing the old meaning means so many people start using the word in the new context that you are no longer understood by most anyone if you use it in the old context.
I think what we've had in the MMO industry is a few businesses attempt to push a new meaning in order to broaden their target audience, and the vast majority of players (about 90% based on polls we've done here) say "No. No that's not what MMO means." So as of yet their attempts have failed to redefine the term in any way.
We have to broaden our scope to pay the bills. End of report.
For what it's worth, we are revisiting the Games List and the categories. But don't look for any changes in content. We simply can't afford it.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For instance, many people say without leveling a game is not an RPG. However I can find no reliable source nor consensus on that.
In a recent thread it's implied that action combat removes games further from the term RPG. However this does not seem to jive with any sources I've found nor be something there is great consensus on.
Personally, I do not feel games that emphasize character progression over immersion into the game world should be classified as RPGs because they take the "roleplay" out of RPG. However there is no consensus on this and reaching that consensus would require disputing the RPG status of many games that currently hold the title.
MMO does have pretty good consensus. 90% of people seem to feel the "massive" qualifier is important, and there seems to be pretty good consensus at this point that it means hundreds or thousands of players sharing the same persistent world with many non-instanced areas they can interact.
Find me a clear definition of RPG most people can agree on and we can have the same kind of discussion for it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Now among people like you who say they don't care about the term there is no consensus but that is fine because there doesn't need to be. Words don't belong to people who don't use them. Words don't belong to people who don't care about them. Words belong to people who use them to convey a specific meaning in order to be understood by those who also are familiar with the word.
So frankly, when you demean the term by suggesting DOTA2 is an MMO, and right out admit you don't care about the term my reaction is "Ok. That's fine. Please excuse yourself from this discussion if you don't care. The rest of us are all pretty well in agreement DOTA 2 isn't an MMO and LOTRO is."
MMO is not a measure of how many people play the game.
The massive in MMO measures how many players are capable of inhabiting the same area at the same time, as is nearly universally agreed upon by those who care about the term.
If we say that "massive" applies to the number of people playing the game in separate areas then the term either becomes a synonym for blockbuster, or, it loses all meaning and applies to literally every online multiplayer game ever made.
Where if you keep the "massive" to mean what it's meant for years now, the term stays meaningful and can actually be used for something.
Different servers is another story, but to me it’s about sharing the same gameworld (universe, shard...) as opposed to all standing in 1 spot.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"The massive in MMO measures how many players are capable of inhabiting the same area at the same time, as is nearly universally agreed upon by those who care about the term."
So there may only be 25 people on your planet, but more of those millions of people could come there if they wanted to.
The first game that jumps out at me is EQ2 at launch. After a certain number of people were in a zone it spawned a clone instance. The second would be Darkfall where the leader of Hyperion would ask his hundreds of followers to log on when they were under attack, simply to cause the attackers to lag and crash (leading to off hour sieging).
Both of those games were considered MMOs. There are plenty of other examples.
Sure ideally we’d love to have a million players all in the same city. No doubt that I prefer non-instanced games but technology isn’t quite there yet (one reason people are excited for Camelot Unchained is the hope of a few hundred people fighting in the same spot). So to me an MMO is about how many people can play in my shared world as opposed to how many people can be standing in the same area at the same time.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Have a battle of this scale on Destiny:
This one is perhaps an even better illustration of why Darkfall is an MMO:
Again, I simply do not see the "same place at the same time" as being the defining point of an MMO. To me it's more about sharing the same world with a massive amount of people. Can a massive amount of people share the same world? That is what I find as defining it. Not how many people can simultaneously be in the same spot.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR