D&D (I don't know about the MMO) didn't have these problems. Mostly because while building your character you had to consider that there was a whole world out there, not just combat. Every stat had an impact for every class, both in and out of combat. You could make a fighter that's strong like bull, and dumb like rock - he would fill your damage meter up so you could brag about your deeps, but he would be slaughtered in save vs rolls. That fighter also wouldn't be able to interact with anything in the world due to being too damn dumb to talk, spot a secret door, gather clues, or even breathe without drooling.
Too much 'innovation' I guess. MMORPGs have gone so far out in left field they're not even in the damn stadium anymore.
As a long time pen and paper RPG player, especially DnD since 2nd edition
What he said is largely true for the edition with the deepest character customization. 3.5. I haven't played much 2nd edition but from what I have, I can understand why you would laugh. Seemed like a very simplistic edition without much depth. Took me like 10 minutes to roll up a character having never played that edition before. I spend at least 4 hours planning each of my 3.5 characters.
My first D&D character ever was a half-orc barbarian with 20 strength, good dex and con, 6 int, 6 wisdom, 6 charisma.
Get that guy in a fight and with other physical combatants and nothing can stand before him. Need a door kicked in? He is your guy.
Just don't expect him to do anything in a social interaction, craft anything, sneak anywhere, disarm any traps, identify the weaknesses of any opponent we come up against etc.
And of course if you ever tell him "roll a will save" well then he's done for.
My characters these days come with a lot more complexity. More things that prepare them for the unexpected. My characters all do very well but I'm sure they would be very different from the next person you tell to build a character of the same class.
"Cookie cutter" is a phrase much like "Pay-to-win". It means something slightly different on the lips of everyone who says it. To me a game is not "pay-to-win" unless I feel I must put money into the game in order to meaningly compete. And a build is not "cookie-cutter" unless there is no room left to customize it once I've taken the critical skills that are "must haves" for that particular build.
I don't mind a system where, say you want to play a tanky paladin, some of the skills are absolute must haves. As long as by the point I take those skills I have a fair bit of choices left to make that aren't so no-brainer.
One thing you could do is each time a player levels up, they're given three options for skills/abilities that are randomly selected from a pool of hundreds. Yes, you'd have people looking up comparisons between abilities X, Y, and Z, but this way pretty much every character would be truly unique.
The downside is the potential for unlucky rolls that gimp a character, and the rampant RWT for optimized characters.
Here's the main issue with "cookie-cutter" builds. Lets take wow for instance. You can go to somewhere like Icy Veins or whatever and get the "best" set up for your spec/class or whatever. Usually these are meant for higher end play, which usually means mythic level raiding etc. Only 15% of the general population partakes in said raiding tier (according to Blizzard sometime back when they used to release their stats) and anything under heroic raid tier you can just outgear for your build to honestly matter. Now there's nothing wrong with trying to "master" mythic tier builds but honestly stuff doesn't really last long enough in most cases when you try to use certain things in other settings. Then people wonder why they dont pull high dps even though they're using "THE build." Also, not everyone has the same reflects etc in order to use certain builds (I tend to play more defensively regardless of my role/class etc since I'm colorblind and you can't dps if you're dead). So the sooner people realize that "cookie-cutter" builds are just tools, the better off they'll be when they try to find something that works for them and not just that 15% that creates said builds.
Early games had it but developers got greedy and pandered to the whiners who weren't even part of the primary target audience. This is why the children of parents who pander to their children raise insolent little shits.
You can see it right here on these forums. A game is previewed that is CLEARLY stated to be for a specific audience and an endless diatribe of replies by people who act like their parents just restricted their internet use.
The answer to nearly every question brought up in threads related to the direction of the MMORPG industry has taken is:
YOU are to blame. You drank the Kool-Aid and let it happen.
Well, logically speaking, the only way to not have cookie cutter builds is to have multiple viable builds for the same role of the particular class. The more viable builds, the more creativity and less cookie-cutter feel.
I know people give the devs a lot of leeway saying it's really hard to do this... But I don't. I think they're slacking in this department.
Cookie cutter builds bring out the worst in people.
Maximizing and over analyzing are for those mathematical elitist pricks. Killing your fun and apparently they know best, in a video game. "bro, you're doing it wrong!"
Cookie cutter builds bring out the worst in people.
Maximizing and over analyzing are for those mathematical elitist pricks. Killing your fun and apparently they know best, in a video game. "bro, you're doing it wrong!"
Long live underachievers.
Well i agree somewhat,there really should be or at least a desirable outcome to achieve in a game.
No we should not be FORCED to play a certain way,but IF it makes sense why not? I still remember people getting extremely angry if Healers took part in combat,well there actually were reasons behind it.
If you are blatantly being selfish and letting your group down,how can that be a constructive way to take part in a group setting?
Here is an example,If you are stuck casting a 3 second spell while your Tank is near dead and can't get off a heal in time,you really should be more focused on healing. Let's look at Wow,you are FORCED to have a certain gear score to do certain content,so how is that any better than say a group of players asking you to play a certain way when the developer themselves are forcing you to play THEIR way?
This really is not a topic about cookie cutter anyhow,this problem can exist in ANY type of design not just cookie cutter designs.
What cookie cutter does is tell us the developer was LAZY and just rushed out a copy cat game design,put less thought into the design and is really more focused on profits than quality game design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You can make the builds better in some situations than others, this used to be done more in the past but problems arise. So you could build for PvE or PvP but what about switching? You could have crafting talent tress in with combat ones but what about an avatar that just crafts?
So perhaps the best way is to accept this is a reality and have the trees just effect how a character looks, armour and equipment, combat animations and so on.
Randomness in progression is one way. IF you are not in full control of how you advance it puts less emphasis on flavors of the month.
I had always imagined a card system with abilities. The stats and ratings on the cards are random. So while one person would have an uppercut that did massive damage the next person's uppercut did less but had a better chance to stun. Or some guy gets lucky and his sword slash is elite while the other it's just regular rotational ability. It just depends on what card dropped for you.
It's all about enjoyment. Nothing wrong with CCBs if you and your mates are having a great time. In fact, if all things are equal the only thing that advances someone would be playing better.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Cookie cutter builds bring out the worst in people.
Maximizing and over analyzing are for those mathematical elitist pricks. Killing your fun and apparently they know best, in a video game. "bro, you're doing it wrong!"
Long live underachievers.
Here is an example,If you are stuck casting a 3 second spell while your Tank is near dead and can't get off a heal in time,you really should be more focused on healing. Let's look at Wow,you are FORCED to have a certain gear score to do certain content,so how is that any better than say a group of players asking you to play a certain way when the developer themselves are forcing you to play THEIR way?
What cookie cutter does is tell us the developer was LAZY and just rushed out a copy cat game design,put less thought into the design and is really more focused on profits than quality game design.
I mean your WoW example is kinda weak about Blizzard forcing you to have a certain gear score to do certain content. There's going to be a minimum gear requirement needed to do content period. You need a minimum amount of hp to survive and a minimum amount of damage to kill bosses before enrage timers. Those requirements that they set for dungeons/lfr aren't just them arbitrarily forcing players to play "THEIR" way.
Literally any mmorpg that you play that has dungeons or raids requires a minimum gear requirement in order for the group to get through(lest they are being run through by someone overgeared/leveled). This remains to be true whether there's a requirement listed in the UI like WoW or not.
Also, you say cookie cutter design tells us that the developer is lazy, so let me ask you then. What mmorpg with combat does not have cookie cutter designs? Please keep to ones that are already released.
Cookie cutter builds work best for a computer simulator or for someone who plays the build optimally. And there are people who are that good.
But being a flawed person myself, I look for builds that work best for me given my individual limitations. In other words, not something that is best overall, but from which I can get the most I have to offer.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Also, you say cookie cutter design tells us that the developer is lazy, so let me ask you then. What mmorpg with combat does not have cookie cutter designs? Please keep to ones that are already released.
I'm surprised we haven't had people listing them already; I'm interested in hearing which ones there are that I haven't played. Of the MMOs I have played Rift and Dofus have the most flexible systems for purchasing/earning skills, and thus the most options for unique builds.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Also, you say cookie cutter design tells us that the developer is lazy, so let me ask you then. What mmorpg with combat does not have cookie cutter designs? Please keep to ones that are already released.
That is such a completely loaded question.
If you are asking "What game does not have a tiny number of viable builds that everyone copies 100% with no variation?"
Then I would say any game with a halfway decent customization system. I created my own builds in Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, SWTOR, LOTRO, EVE, ArcheAge, Anarchy Online, Shroud of the Avatar, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons 3.5, etc. More than I could sit here and think of / count right now.
And I did perfectly fine in plenty of those games. I remember getting quite a few comments in SWTOR and GW1 about how amazing of a healer I was and I literally never looked up a healer build for either of those games even as a foundation for my build.
If you are asking "What game does not have a few builds that stand out that many people choose to run?" Then the answer is 0. And it will always be 0.
But I don't see many people opting to go with the tried and true builds as a problem as long as I still have the option to enjoyably play a custom build.
Comments
My first D&D character ever was a half-orc barbarian with 20 strength, good dex and con, 6 int, 6 wisdom, 6 charisma.
Get that guy in a fight and with other physical combatants and nothing can stand before him. Need a door kicked in? He is your guy.
Just don't expect him to do anything in a social interaction, craft anything, sneak anywhere, disarm any traps, identify the weaknesses of any opponent we come up against etc.
And of course if you ever tell him "roll a will save" well then he's done for.
My characters these days come with a lot more complexity. More things that prepare them for the unexpected. My characters all do very well but I'm sure they would be very different from the next person you tell to build a character of the same class.
I don't mind a system where, say you want to play a tanky paladin, some of the skills are absolute must haves. As long as by the point I take those skills I have a fair bit of choices left to make that aren't so no-brainer.
The downside is the potential for unlucky rolls that gimp a character, and the rampant RWT for optimized characters.
Early games had it but developers got greedy and pandered to the whiners who weren't even part of the primary target audience. This is why the children of parents who pander to their children raise insolent little shits.
You can see it right here on these forums. A game is previewed that is CLEARLY stated to be for a specific audience and an endless diatribe of replies by people who act like their parents just restricted their internet use.
The answer to nearly every question brought up in threads related to the direction of the MMORPG industry has taken is:
YOU are to blame. You drank the Kool-Aid and let it happen.
You stay sassy!
I know people give the devs a lot of leeway saying it's really hard to do this... But I don't. I think they're slacking in this department.
Mend and Defend
Maximizing and over analyzing are for those mathematical elitist pricks.
Killing your fun and apparently they know best, in a video game. "bro, you're doing it wrong!"
Long live underachievers.
No we should not be FORCED to play a certain way,but IF it makes sense why not?
I still remember people getting extremely angry if Healers took part in combat,well there actually were reasons behind it.
If you are blatantly being selfish and letting your group down,how can that be a constructive way to take part in a group setting?
Here is an example,If you are stuck casting a 3 second spell while your Tank is near dead and can't get off a heal in time,you really should be more focused on healing.
Let's look at Wow,you are FORCED to have a certain gear score to do certain content,so how is that any better than say a group of players asking you to play a certain way when the developer themselves are forcing you to play THEIR way?
This really is not a topic about cookie cutter anyhow,this problem can exist in ANY type of design not just cookie cutter designs.
What cookie cutter does is tell us the developer was LAZY and just rushed out a copy cat game design,put less thought into the design and is really more focused on profits than quality game design.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So perhaps the best way is to accept this is a reality and have the trees just effect how a character looks, armour and equipment, combat animations and so on.
I had always imagined a card system with abilities. The stats and ratings on the cards are random. So while one person would have an uppercut that did massive damage the next person's uppercut did less but had a better chance to stun. Or some guy gets lucky and his sword slash is elite while the other it's just regular rotational ability. It just depends on what card dropped for you.
Problem with that is players don't like random.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Literally any mmorpg that you play that has dungeons or raids requires a minimum gear requirement in order for the group to get through(lest they are being run through by someone overgeared/leveled). This remains to be true whether there's a requirement listed in the UI like WoW or not.
Also, you say cookie cutter design tells us that the developer is lazy, so let me ask you then. What mmorpg with combat does not have cookie cutter designs? Please keep to ones that are already released.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
But being a flawed person myself, I look for builds that work best for me given my individual limitations. In other words, not something that is best overall, but from which I can get the most I have to offer.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If you are asking "What game does not have a tiny number of viable builds that everyone copies 100% with no variation?"
Then I would say any game with a halfway decent customization system. I created my own builds in Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, SWTOR, LOTRO, EVE, ArcheAge, Anarchy Online, Shroud of the Avatar, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons 3.5, etc. More than I could sit here and think of / count right now.
And I did perfectly fine in plenty of those games. I remember getting quite a few comments in SWTOR and GW1 about how amazing of a healer I was and I literally never looked up a healer build for either of those games even as a foundation for my build.
If you are asking "What game does not have a few builds that stand out that many people choose to run?" Then the answer is 0. And it will always be 0.
But I don't see many people opting to go with the tried and true builds as a problem as long as I still have the option to enjoyably play a custom build.