The Bless Press Event Was a Big Letdown

Izkimar

I was super excited to see the Bless Media Event, and I made sure I had the time to sit and watch it on Friday! But that hope quickly faded! 

Tbh, I was disappointed with the handling of the event, the vague information on important game mechanics, and I might be of the minority that isn't dazzled by the new combo system. 

I Went through every stream over the weekend, and I tried to take in all the information I could. I made a video with my thoughts on my biggest issues with the game and changes. It was super long so I am breaking it into parts. 

In this video:

I break down the problems I have with the new Combo System, Stance Skills, Non-Stance Skills, and the Parameter system. 

Combo System: 

• Very rigid and forced. Skills were designed for a standalone deck building system, and now have been sloppily shoved into a last minute Combo System. 

• A lot of Skill Combo's lack inspiration, aren't chained logically, and just seem to reflect an out of touch dev team. 

• A lot of Classes have lost the ability to intelligently control things like "Natural" Damage Combo's, Class Core Mechanics, and CC's. 

• Since a lot of these mechanics have been forced into combo rotations, they are less able to be used in a competent manner based on situational conditions. 

Stance Skills & Customization:

• Stance skills are completely static at their root, most of the deck building is now gone. 

• The new gem system is only a slight upgrade over the old skill point system. It mostly grants minuscule bonuses. 

Non-Stance Skills & Customization: 

• Non-Stance Skills are very limited, you only have 8 to choose from. 

• Some of them are no-brainers as they are some of the old Core Shift Mechanics each class used to have, which are very important to their identity. 

• In a lot of cases this leaves you with only 3 Real Options. 

• I actually really like the new Customization paths, you get 3 to choose from and they are actually significant augmentations. 

• I would have liked to seen a deeper level of customization like this for more of the skills, especially since this is eliminating the old Passive Skill system. 

Parameters:

• Replaces old Passive Stat System  

• This system is completely on rails, and it looks like you will be able to unlock them all. 

• This seems to reward those who grind more with pure power. 

• Instead, a better system would be a slight vertical climb, but with horizontal elements. Meaning the more you unlock, you are point capped and are mostly presented with power through choice. Instead of a system that lacks meaningful decisions. 

Things I couldn't fit into video: 

• Rune System, how it might not be changed, and the damage it causes to the game. Preview at the end of the video. 

• Core Gameplay Mechanics Gated through Grind. 

• Performance 

• Paladin Combo's 

I will be putting these together for Part 2. 

Sovrath

Are we sure about some of this or is this conjecture?

I mean, have you tried the chaining? Can you give us an example (do you do this in the video?) of a "bad chain".

And some of this is just opinion.

"Non-Stance Skills are very limited, you only have 8 to choose from. "

um "good".

"most of the deck building is now gone. "

um "good".

"Core Gameplay Mechanics Gated through Grind. "

um good? I prefer Asian games as they allow me to go out and kill monsters. Why I prefer Black Desert.

Sorry you are disappointed but I think some of this must be experienced before one gives judgement. I almost think you are taking "the game in your mind" and then comparing this one. That's what this seems like to me but I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.

Izkimar

Sovrath said:

Are we sure about some of this or is this conjecture?

I mean, have you tried the chaining? Can you give us an example (do you do this in the video?) of a "bad chain".

And some of this is just opinion.

"Non-Stance Skills are very limited, you only have 8 to choose from. "

um "good".

"most of the deck building is now gone. "

um "good".

"Core Gameplay Mechanics Gated through Grind. "

um good? I prefer Asian games as they allow me to go out and kill monsters. Why I prefer Black Desert.

Sorry you are disappointed but I think some of this must be experienced before one gives judgement. I almost think you are taking "the game in your mind" and then comparing this one. That's what this seems like to me but I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.

I can't say it's absolute 100% certainty, but it isn't conjecture either. We have poured through all of these systems now that they are fully unveiled, and this is how they operate. 

I had to cut so much from my rant because it was so long, but originally I showed an example of an Old Skill in use, compared to how you would have to use it now. 

Example: Wind Ride - This skill was sort of like LeBlanc W from League of Legends. You dashed forward and leave a Portal behind at original location. For a certain amount of time if you are in LoS of portal you can interact and port back. 

This skill alone had a lot of play to it, and there was a lot of different ways you could play your deck around it.

• I can Port away, have enemy dash after, immediately port back. 
• I can Port in, pop Air Core Skill, Chain Lightning for self bounce single target burst, then port back and use a Wind Blade while Air Core is still active. 

Now all of this is lost, as it is now a forced combo. In order to use a situational skill, I must activate a Single target dmg skill, then I can chain into Wind Ride, then I MUST Chain Lightning if I want to get access to the Return Function. 

Your counters just highlight differences we may have in what we seek in a game. I like intelligent control of my characters interactions, I enjoy making builds and developing my character both vertically and horizontally. I really like the RPG aspect of MMORPG.

I didn't say anything about going out and killing monsters, I enjoy doing that too. I was highlighting a switch to a more vertical power based system. 

This is not an example of game in my mind, I have played Bless extensively for a long time now. 

IceAge

DMKano said:

Agree with OP 100%

Truth is starting to come out - good detailed info presented here from a very knowledgable player.

Awesome work.

Truth ? He raised HIS personal points of view, while I don't see many of the said points, a problem. He's comparing Bless JP with Bless EU/NA. He may very well like the JP more then what we get, but guess what ? He's in the minority here. 99.9% didn't played JP version and so , EU/NA will be the first experience and there will be no comparations.

There were some who loved FFXIV 1.0 but disliked 2.0 . See what I did there? Good

PS: You do realize, that by agreeing with the OP, you are actually agreeing that the combat IS in fact VERY different then the JP right? Right? .. 

Right..

Izkimar

IceAge said:

Truth ? He raised HIS personal points of view, while I don't see many of the said points, a problem. He's comparing Bless JP with Bless EU/NA. He may very well like the JP more then what we get, but guess what ? He's in the minority here. 99.9% didn't played JP version and so , EU/NA will be the first experience and there will be no comparations.

There were some who loved FFXIV 1.0 but disliked 2.0 . See what I did there? Good

PS: You do realize, that by agreeing with the OP, you are actually agreeing that the combat IS in fact VERY different then the JP right? Right? .. 

Right..

I stated in the video that I was not partial to the JP system, I was excited when I heard we were getting changes. I was very welcoming to the prospect. Even when I covered the first combat re-work videos I was really optimistic. 

The devs also put out a slew of quotes explaining how character building would get more deep, and we would have much more control over our making our combo's and how our character plays out. In this video I explain how it doesn't. 

99.9% don't need context to understand when a combat system is thrown together in a last minute knee jerk effort. 

IceAge

DMKano said:

@Izkimar - in your opinion looking at the new combat system and compared to Japanese Bless version... how really different is the new combat?

Some were under the impression that its 100% redone, I say its 80% the same, this Steam version is tweaked old skills but hardly redone.

Whats your thoughts on how much of the Steam combat is completely redone?

He also forgot to add that what some means, is not 100% redone, but very different.

Also he forgot to add, that what some says, is about the combat system* , not combat animations. 

Combat System : Skills changes in every aspect, be it Dmg, CD , CC, Attack Speed, Functionality , Passives, Upgrades to the Skills , etc.

Vorthanion

Bleh, I can't stand combo based combat. Yet another reason for me to avoid this game.

Izkimar

DMKano said:

@Izkimar - in your opinion looking at the new combat system and compared to Japanese Bless version... how really different is the new combat?

Some were under the impression that its 100% redone, I say its 80% the same, this Steam version is tweaked old skills but hardly redone.

Whats your thoughts on how much of the Steam combat is completely redone?

I would say it is about 80% the same at the foundational level, but due to the forced flow of skills it will play almost entirely different. The devs took all the skills we had before, re-designed like 20% of them, and then proceeded to force them into a non-optional chain flow. 

The skills were not designed from the ground up for a combat system like this. In most cases it is very artificial and lacks understanding of their own skills identities. 

IceAge

Izkimar said:

IceAge said:

Truth ? He raised HIS personal points of view, while I don't see many of the said points, a problem. He's comparing Bless JP with Bless EU/NA. He may very well like the JP more then what we get, but guess what ? He's in the minority here. 99.9% didn't played JP version and so , EU/NA will be the first experience and there will be no comparations.

There were some who loved FFXIV 1.0 but disliked 2.0 . See what I did there? Good

PS: You do realize, that by agreeing with the OP, you are actually agreeing that the combat IS in fact VERY different then the JP right? Right? .. 

Right..

I stated in the video that I was not partial to the JP system, I was excited when I heard we were getting changes. I was very welcoming to the prospect. Even when I covered the first combat re-work videos I was really optimistic. 

The devs also put out a slew of quotes explaining how character building would get more deep, and we would have much more control over our making our combo's and how our character plays out. In this video I explain how it doesn't. 

99.9% don't need context to understand when a combat system is thrown together in a last minute knee jerk effort. 

Didn't watched the video, just read what you said here.

With that being said, is still your personal opinion and I respect it , but I can't agree with it , as I need to play Bless EU/NA in order to see and make my own opinion about the combat.

I can pretty much say that I will not see the changes as you do , because I didn't played JP version beside 1 hour or so, while you did played it long enough and well .. I think you are very used with the JP Combat Version. So for you X skill which did Y damage and had Z functionality on JP , and if you liked that said skill , you indeed, will find it different and you may dislike it in EU/NA Version.


Anyway , I like the new combat system, as it reminds me very much of Aion, so..I like the changes.

IceAge

Izkimar said:

DMKano said:

@Izkimar - in your opinion looking at the new combat system and compared to Japanese Bless version... how really different is the new combat?

Some were under the impression that its 100% redone, I say its 80% the same, this Steam version is tweaked old skills but hardly redone.

Whats your thoughts on how much of the Steam combat is completely redone?

I would say it is about 80% the same at the foundational level, but due to the forced flow of skills it will play almost entirely different.  

Poor @DMKano . 

PS: I hope you understand the meaning of "foundation" and "it will play almost entirely different".

FlyByKnight

A person comes through, gives their concise breakdown of Bless and the press conference. Says they were an interested party but was disappointed.

Bless Defense League of Overlooked Emissarys come through in attempts to discredit. Is this going to happen every thread?

If so I'm game, because Star Citizen Forum PVP got boring for me quickly and at least Bless is coming out in a few days.

*Turns Forum PVP Flag On* 

Sovrath

DMKano said:

@Izkimar - in your opinion looking at the new combat system and compared to Japanese Bless version... how really different is the new combat?

Some were under the impression that its 100% redone, I say its 80% the same, this Steam version is tweaked old skills but hardly redone.

Whats your thoughts on how much of the Steam combat is completely redone?

Well, here's a question, did they say it was 100% new? If they did then obviously that didn't happen.

Or did they say they were going to work on combat? Maybe chaining skills does make it great. Or maybe they don't flow.

So he didn't do "good work" he, at least in his post, is merely disappointed that things didn't turn out as he wanted them to turn out in the game in his head.

MidPrincess

My 2 cents:  methinks this may be another case of a game that looked really cool 2 or 3 years ago or whatever, but by the time it crawls its way over to the West either (a) the hype is gone, replaced by something else or (b) the changes or "Westernization" are poorly done and so the game doesn't last long.  I would offer Blade & Soul as an example; sure, it still has some players but it took so long to get here that it was sorta old news by then.  And for me, I had played BnS in Chinese for 2 years, plus a short flirt with the JP version, so when it did finally show its Western face I was already pretty much over it. 

Maybe Bless will somehow do better but its current history doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of confidence.

FlyByKnight

@Izkimar Why do you think they didn't just allow folks to fill their own combat trees? That would have made way more sense don't you think?

Sovrath

Nyctelios said:

Sovrath said:

DMKano said:

@Izkimar - in your opinion looking at the new combat system and compared to Japanese Bless version... how really different is the new combat?

Some were under the impression that its 100% redone, I say its 80% the same, this Steam version is tweaked old skills but hardly redone.

Whats your thoughts on how much of the Steam combat is completely redone?

Well, here's a question, did they say it was 100% new? If they did then obviously that didn't happen.

Or did they say they were going to work on combat? Maybe chaining skills does make it great. Or maybe they don't flow.

So he didn't do "good work" he, at least in his post, is merely disappointed that things didn't turn out as he wanted them to turn out in the game in his head.

Ah, come one, "as he wanted" - he is pointing out the system lost its flavor and creativity in favor of something restrict.

I think its' ok that one is disappointed and I think it's ok to have reasonable expectations.

For example, I think it's fine that someone is disappointed that there is going to be a lot of unused, undeveloped, space. Some might not care but I think it's ok if people do care.

I don't think it's fine to be disappointed because the game one has in their head is not the game that is being presented.

The OP makes claims that may or may not be true. Maybe these chain skills will work or maybe they won't.


What I do think is that as soon as the developers said they were going to bring the game here and rework it, some players immediately took that to be like a Final Fantasy 14 remake. Even though they never said that.

There is a thing with some gamers/players that they create these scenarios in their minds even though there is no real evidence to support those scenarios.

AnnaTS

I would have preferred if the combat was more like Skyforge, Not sure why they had to make skill combos to make the combat faster, I find the combat in Skyforge  smooth and fast without having to using combos.

Sephiroso

AnnaTS said:

I would have preferred if the combat was more like Skyforge, Not sure why they had to make skill combos to make the combat faster, I find the combat in Skyforge  smooth and fast without having to using combos.

Personally, i think it should have been more like BDO. BDO is the pinnacle of combat to me(so far, not saying its not possible to do better). But I feel the same way that you do, the choice of skill combos was just a poor choice execution wise.

I think i understand why they went that route though, simply put it was cheaper. Anything else and they really would have had to dismantle the combat system and remake it(similar to how FFXIV > ARR did)

Sovrath

Izkimar said:

I can't say it's absolute 100% certainty, but it isn't conjecture either. We have poured through all of these systems now that they are fully unveiled, and this is how they operate. 

I had to cut so much from my rant because it was so long, but originally I showed an example of an Old Skill in use, compared to how you would have to use it now. 

Example: Wind Ride - This skill was sort of like LeBlanc W from League of Legends. You dashed forward and leave a Portal behind at original location. For a certain amount of time if you are in LoS of portal you can interact and port back. 

This skill alone had a lot of play to it, and there was a lot of different ways you could play your deck around it.

• I can Port away, have enemy dash after, immediately port back. 
• I can Port in, pop Air Core Skill, Chain Lightning for self bounce single target burst, then port back and use a Wind Blade while Air Core is still active. 

Now all of this is lost, as it is now a forced combo. In order to use a situational skill, I must activate a Single target dmg skill, then I can chain into Wind Ride, then I MUST Chain Lightning if I want to get access to the Return Function. 

Your counters just highlight differences we may have in what we seek in a game. I like intelligent control of my characters interactions, I enjoy making builds and developing my character both vertically and horizontally. I really like the RPG aspect of MMORPG.

I didn't say anything about going out and killing monsters, I enjoy doing that too. I was highlighting a switch to a more vertical power based system. 

This is not an example of game in my mind, I have played Bless extensively for a long time now. 

Well, did they ever say that they were going to work in Vertical progression? Because I think this is the game in your mind.

It's true, you didn't say "going out and killing monsters" But you did say grind and that is an example of grind. What most players think of as "grind" I do not. And that's why I'm usually drawn toward Asian games. I'm ok with them saying "you must do x, y and z" and I will note that that is what needs to be done and I'll do it.

"Your counters just highlight differences we may have in what we seek in a game. I like intelligent control of my characters interactions, I enjoy making builds and developing my character both vertically and horizontally. I really like the RPG aspect of MMORPG."

And for me, I prefer a setting and being given a set of skills/abilities and then learning to use those to the best of my ability.

Most Asian games are like this. So why would you assume that this one wouldn't be? I get you like builds but I can't think of any (must be some though edit - ah Archeage!) Asian games that are big into different builds. If anything they always muck it up (looking at you Tera and those stones).

Being disappointed because they said the game would definitely be x, y and z and it isn't is one thing

Being disappointed because you have a preference and you walked in and wanted to see that preference isn't realistic.

Also, as far as your skill example, maybe that's the whole point, it's no longer about "wind ride" being used how you used to use it and it's reimagined in a way that is useful as a "part" of those other skills.

So then revamped combat really is revamped combat. edit: I see IceAge says the exact same thing - I'm more in agreement with that point of view.

maskedweasel

FlyByKnight said:

@Izkimar Why do you think they didn't just allow folks to fill their own combat trees? That would have made way more sense don't you think?

He's partially right in some cases. For example, the mage has several ranged abilities, most of them it seems, but one of their combos chains into a close range AOE.  

It would make sense to have local AOE abilities separate, or to remove a time limit between a ranged ability and a melee range ability, right? 

You could make the case that the combat system is built around "strategic" awareness of your situation, but if you watch the videos you'll also note that abilities don't fire off without a target a lot of the time, so lets say you were fighting an enemy and two other enemies came up behind you once you killed the one you were facing, in order to utilize the AOE, you'd have to target an enemy first to start the chain.


That's not to say it's a bad system, because it's not.  The good think about the chain combo system is that you have access to way more abilities at any given time, but the trade off is that you don't have immediate access to said abilities.  Is this something that may require tweaking from the developers?  Yeah, I'd say so, but I wouldn't count it as a major deal breaker. 

AnnaTS

Sephiroso said:

AnnaTS said:

I would have preferred if the combat was more like Skyforge, Not sure why they had to make skill combos to make the combat faster, I find the combat in Skyforge  smooth and fast without having to using combos.

Personally, i think it should have been more like BDO. BDO is the pinnacle of combat to me(so far, not saying its not possible to do better). But I feel the same way that you do, the choice of skill combos was just a poor choice execution wise.

I think i understand why they went that route though, simply put it was cheaper. Anything else and they really would have had to dismantle the combat system and remake it(similar to how FFXIV > ARR did)

I didn't play BDO, I prefer to play themepark games as i like being told where to go, I did show some interest in the game when i heard a class was called witch, But then i found out it was just another generic mage class. 

Skyforge had a witch class, It was so much fun to play, but the game wasn't really that great and when they made big changes because they were releasing it on console, I stopped playing then.

maskedweasel

t0nyd said:

I dislike combo based combat. I'd rather pick an ability that I want to use when I .want to use it. I don't want to have to chain together 2 abilities just to finally use the ability that I want.  I prefer responsive combat and having a cc at the end of a combo chain is far from responsive. If you need to interrupt now and can't begin the combo with an interrupt then you basically have no counter. If combo chains are always in the same order than people simply memorize class combo chains and use that to win fights.

I'd prefer a system that let me design my own combo chains and not use pre defined combos. What's the fun of having a bunch of clones running around doing the exact same combos. 

completely valid concerns. DCUO was able to mitigate this a little by having a more "rock paper scissors" combo system.  In order to perform certain status effects you had to begin a combo, or you could use a power.

It's similar in that way, though the combos flow a little differently, and still use resources, whereas combos in DCUO didn't use resources, or build them.. necessarily.  

You can still apply crowd control or defensive effects in Bless with the non-stance skills... but the majority of what you use requires the use of chain skills...  so yeah, the system isn't fool proof, but the good thing about the system is that it bridges together attacks so there is a flow to combat.  Whether that is good or bad, it depends on the person playing.

Izkimar

IceAge said:

Didn't watched the video, just read what you said here.

With that being said, is still your personal opinion and I respect it , but I can't agree with it , as I need to play Bless EU/NA in order to see and make my own opinion about the combat.

I can pretty much say that I will not see the changes as you do , because I didn't played JP version beside 1 hour or so, while you did played it long enough and well .. I think you are very used with the JP Combat Version. So for you X skill which did Y damage and had Z functionality on JP , and if you liked that said skill , you indeed, will find it different and you may dislike it in EU/NA Version.


Anyway , I like the new combat system, as it reminds me very much of Aion, so..I like the changes.

Again, the statement still holds that you didn't need to experience JP/KR in order to go into a game and see limited build variance. If limited build variance exists, it exists. Same holds for the new Parameter system. I do understand the bit about experiencing it for yourself though, I can agree on that one. 

Izkimar

IceAge said:

Poor @DMKano . 

PS: I hope you understand the meaning of "foundation" and "it will play almost entirely different".

Lol forgive me if I'm mistaken, but it is really hard to read this and not take it in a condescending light. 

It is possible for an individual skill to be the same at it's root, and for the combat system itself to play entirely different due to the way they are forcibly arranged.  

Izkimar

FlyByKnight said:

A person comes through, gives their concise breakdown of Bless and the press conference. Says they were an interested party but was disappointed.

Bless Defense League of Overlooked Emissarys come through in attempts to discredit. Is this going to happen every thread?

If so I'm game, because Star Citizen Forum PVP got boring for me quickly and at least Bless is coming out in a few days.

*Turns Forum PVP Flag On* 

It's kind of crazy, I did honestly expect some dislikes. However, didn't quite seeing it go this direction. Guess I should've known better. Though, I wish people could see the hours I poured into literally breaking down every single stream, and combing through every bit of information released. As well as the time it took for me to even put this together. Maybe that would help a little? Who knows. I've yet to go to sleep at this point, was actually excited to get it out lol. 

This isn't just shit I pulled out of my ass. 

I used to be a fierce forum PvP'er back in the day. Though I fear my sword is quite dull these days lol. 

Izkimar

Sovrath said:

Well, did they ever say that they were going to work in Vertical progression? Because I think this is the game in your mind.

It's true, you didn't say "going out and killing monsters" But you did say grind and that is an example of grind. What most players think of as "grind" I do not. And that's why I'm usually drawn toward Asian games. I'm ok with them saying "you must do x, y and z" and I will note that that is what needs to be done and I'll do it.

"Your counters just highlight differences we may have in what we seek in a game. I like intelligent control of my characters interactions, I enjoy making builds and developing my character both vertically and horizontally. I really like the RPG aspect of MMORPG."

And for me, I prefer a setting and being given a set of skills/abilities and then learning to use those to the best of my ability.

Most Asian games are like this. So why would you assume that this one wouldn't be? I get you like builds but I can't think of any (must be some though edit - ah Archeage!) Asian games that are big into different builds. If anything they always muck it up (looking at you Tera and those stones).

Being disappointed because they said the game would definitely be x, y and z and it isn't is one thing

Being disappointed because you have a preference and you walked in and wanted to see that preference isn't realistic.

Also, as far as your skill example, maybe that's the whole point, it's no longer about "wind ride" being used how you used to use it and it's reimagined in a way that is useful as a "part" of those other skills.

So then revamped combat really is revamped combat. edit: I see IceAge says the exact same thing - I'm more in agreement with that point of view.

Yes they did in countless interviews. Again, it isn't something dreamed up in the head. It is a gameplay shift. What existed before in certain areas had good character building depth, and the devs have also aimed Bless towards a Western audience. The game has not played like a typical Asian game, a lot of the design elements have been more in line with Western games. 

The gameplay shift is in contradiction to both dev quotes and the way the game plays currently. I am not attached to that game state, because I was welcoming the change. Yet it is entirely acceptable for a person to be disappointed with a path in which something changes. It doesn't mean I was against change, it just means I don't agree with the current direction. 

"Also, as far as your skill example, maybe that's the whole point, it's no longer about "wind ride" being used how you used to use it and it's reimagined in a way that is useful as a "part" of those other skills."

I have seen this argument recycled over and over again anytime devs make decisions that may or may not be good for their own game. Just because a dev intends to do something does not make it good or the right choice. It is quite common that bad decisions are made in game development, and that applies for life in general. 

The argument is that the skill is functioning in complete contradiction of the exact identity it still retains, and that is due to being forced into a new system that none of these skills were designed to fit. 

Izkimar

t0nyd said:

I dislike combo based combat. I'd rather pick an ability that I want to use when I .want to use it. I don't want to have to chain together 2 abilities just to finally use the ability that I want.  I prefer responsive combat and having a cc at the end of a combo chain is far from responsive. If you need to interrupt now and can't begin the combo with an interrupt then you basically have no counter. If combo chains are always in the same order than people simply memorize class combo chains and use that to win fights.

I'd prefer a system that let me design my own combo chains and not use pre defined combos. What's the fun of having a bunch of clones running around doing the exact same combos. 

Agreed. What's also bad is when your major CC skills are Combo Openers and they are completely integral to your normal DPS rotations. There isn't really much argument that can be made to defend that as good design.