Slavery in an MMORPG

TheScavenger

Anyway, as far as the posts above and future posts...gonna leave this thread and hope it dies in a fire or/and gets locked or deleted by MMORPG.com staff. Not gonna bother arguing with pro-slaves or those who want to remember the days of slavery. I said my thoughts, so this will be the last post in this dumb thread. 

Hope the thread gets deleted. And its even worse because OP WANTS slavery, in a game yeah, but its the same thing as wanting it in real life. I hope he changes his mind and doesn't put slavery in at all.

Scot

Sephiroso said:

kitarad said:

BDO has a form of slavery. There is even a quest where you chase down a runaway worker. They are paid in beer. Odd mechanics and while you go around you can actually see them working away at their tasks. Reminiscent of the cotton pickers.

lmao i never saw the workers as slaves because you paid money for them but you're right. You paid the "supervisor" and not the worker and their wage was beer, aka food to keep them going. damn, i gotta tell my friend that.

Historically many workers on farms and building projects have been paid with beer.

JeffSpicoli

Scot said:

Sephiroso said:

kitarad said:

BDO has a form of slavery. There is even a quest where you chase down a runaway worker. They are paid in beer. Odd mechanics and while you go around you can actually see them working away at their tasks. Reminiscent of the cotton pickers.

lmao i never saw the workers as slaves because you paid money for them but you're right. You paid the "supervisor" and not the worker and their wage was beer, aka food to keep them going. damn, i gotta tell my friend that.

Historically many workers on farms and building projects have been paid with beer.

As well as many married men 

Cryomatrix

TheScavenger said:

 And its even worse because OP WANTS slavery, in a game yeah, but its the same thing as wanting it in real life.

Dude, how the hell is wanting to put slavery into a game mean you want to put it in real life. There are a ton of books with war in it, my novel has big battles in it, do I want battles to occur in real life????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!, i hate violence. I hate people dying for bullshit, i hate conflict, i wish we lived in a world of peace. the last thing I want is there to be conflict in the world. But yeah, i'll put it in a book. Yes, i'll play GTA at times. I'll play Civ 5 and fucking take out my neighbors cuz I feel like it, doesn't mean I want to do it in real life. 

I feel bad when there is any war or anything. I feel bad because in most wars and conflicts, innocent people die. WW2 had killed between 50-80 million people and I guarantee you a good 20-40 million were people that had nothing to do with the war. 

Even if OP put rape or child-anything in there, I wouldn't play it but I wouldn't accuse the guy of wanting it in real life. It is a bit F'd up, but I wouldn't assume they'd want it in real life. Anyway, good job on getting out of the thread. 

MMOExposed

kitarad said:

BDO has a form of slavery. There is even a quest where you chase down a runaway worker. They are paid in beer. Odd mechanics and while you go around you can actually see them working away at their tasks. Reminiscent of the cotton pickers.

thats fantasy tho. Thats not based on real life historical people who have descendants that are alive today and not too far off from the time.

kitarad

I think the responses in this thread will be a small sample of what you will get in your game if it releases with slavery.

Saur0n69

I wouldn't mind seeing a Spartacus game.

4507

Quizzical said:

Slavery was hardly unique to the 18th century Caribbean area.  If you want to say that the existence of slavery then makes it essential to depict in a game set in that era, then you could say the same of every other significant civilization in human history until Britain abolished it in 1809.

Why was slavery so common?  It's not a simple case of no one getting the idea that freedom was preferable to slavery.  Rather, we are so far removed from the way life was centuries ago that we have no clue what their options were, let alone what the likely consequences of choosing them would have been.  Among the other prominent features of life were:

1)  A constant threat of famine and even starvation.  Most of society had to work in agriculture because that was the only way to produce enough food.  And when something like unfavorable weather, a natural disaster, or an untimely invasion made that somewhat less productive than normal one year, starvation was a real prospect.

2)  Life-threatening diseases--and sometimes, epidemics of them.  A baby born in developed countries today is far more likely to live to the age of 60 than a baby born in much of human history was to live to the age of 1.  Some of the things that we can do with modern medicine would have been considered nothing short of miraculous a few centuries ago.  For people of any age to die with relatively short notice was massively more common than it is now.

3)  Invaders who would take whatever they wanted of what you had, and possibly destroy some of what they didn't want just to spite you.  You could lose your house, any food you had stored, livestock, tools, friends, family members, or your own life.  An invasion could come with limited warning, though who your powerful neighbors who could theoretically invade were was likely to be known well in advance.

But why stop at slavery?  Why not include the three things I've listed above, which were commonly a more prominent feature of life than slavery even in places in the world that had slavery.  After all, some such harsh realities of life were major contributing factors in why slavery existed in the first place.  We are so far removed from the way life was centuries ago that you probably wouldn't be able to create an accurate depiction of it even if you wanted to.

Ultimately, a game is a model of sorts.  And a model is a simplified version of whatever it is that you're trying to model.  You pick some salient features to include in the model, and then discard everything else.  That makes the model unrealistic in ways, but that's the point of a model:  you discard some features to make it simpler.

The ultimate measure of how good a game is as a model is how fun and interesting it is, not how realistic.  We understand very well that you need food and water to survive.  Few games bother to implement that; even if they have food and water, deciding to go without isn't life-threatening.  Games do that because having to constantly stop to eat and drink really isn't a very interesting game mechanic.  Slavery probably isn't, either, unless you have some ideas that you think will make it interesting.  Don't add slavery just for the sake of realism.

Well, since the two most popular settings for MMOs are far future sci-fi (post-abolition) and pseudo-European medieval high fantasy (a time and place with a very low amount of slavery compared to, say, ancient Rome or the colonial Caribbean), and so few MMOs try to be historically accurate in the first place, it's not surprising that slavery is depicted so rarely.

As for starvation and disease, those are similar to pemadeath in the sense that excluding them are acceptable inaccuracies for the sake of making the game enjoyable. (on your third point, many MMOs already have that, and it's called griefing)

Slavery, on the other hand, does not inherently decrease the enjoyability of a game when included, and more can be done with it than simply saying "you died to dysentry. Now go outside because this game has permadeath" whenever a new player logs in.

Also, I take issue with your saying that the three things you listed were more influential to the average person in the Caribbean at the time. Seeing as the vast majority of such people were either slaves themselves, slave owners, or the transporters/consumers of slave-produced goods, I highly doubt that.

And @TheScavenger, I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but if you aren't, then I'm sorry that you think you can turn the real world into a safe space like the one you must have frequented in college. The real world had and still does have rape, genocide, slavery, and a cornucopia of other equally depraved activities. Ignoring them only ensures that they will continue to happen.

Vrika

TheScavenger said:

Slavery should be forgotten, and not even be put into the history books. Burn any book with slavery as far as I'm concerned. It shouldn't even be talked about or written, and hopefully one day all the statues being torn down make the dark history of slavery forgotten. The people who kept slaves should be forgotten, and maybe at most only the people who freed prisoners (which is a better word than slaves) would be the only ones remembered.

I would never play a game that had slavery of any kind. It is something in future generations that will hopefully never know "slavery" even existed.

If we forget the past, then 100 years from now on someone will have a great idea "Hey, let's take slaves", and no-one will be able to tell him why it's a bad idea because we've forgotten.

There are some things that should be remembered because they are painful to remember.

Eldurian

EVE Online has slaves as a commodity that can be traded (Legal in some areas, illegally in others.)

Conan Exiles has a straight system for enslaving people.

SWTOR addresses the issue of slavery. The Sith Inquisitor starts the game as slave forced into training because of their force sensitivity and the warrior's first companion is a slave.

Multiple Total War titles allow you to enslave captives captured in battle and it's actually pisses of the faction you did it to less then just executing them all (imagine that.)

These games all worked out fine with minimal backlash. Most people can separate fantasy and reality.

If you are creating a historical game, don't dumb down history because it offends people. The world was a brutal violent place and pretending like it adhered to modern standards of morality does nobody any favors. It just perpetuates ignorance. 

And make sure you including press-ganging people as a method of ship recruitment as well.

Eldurian

Maurgrim said:

If you want it historical accurate so why not.

Just for the record, there were white slaves also, free ride over to the colonies to be slaves to "pay back" the voyage over were quite common and the whites usually were treated far worse than the blacks due to whites only needed to be slaves for a few years until they payed back.

Just a tingle thought.

So indentured servitude vs chattle slavery.

Indentured servitude means you are forced into slavery until you settle a debt. Chattle slavery means you are a piece of property, and so are any children you have.

Generally an indentured servant had more rights than chattle slave.

Quizzical

In Europa Universalis II, every province has an associated trade good, which affects the value of owning the province.  Some trade goods are things like wool, cotton, tea, or gold.  But others include tobacco, wine, and slaves.  The ESRB felt the need to give a warning about the abstract depiction of tobacco and alcohol in their rating of the game.  But they didn't warn about the likewise abstract depiction of the slave trade.  Because apparently tobacco and alcohol are more offensive than slavery.

I realize that they were just going through a checklist of their possible warnings and slavery wasn't on their list.  But still, it's kind of ridiculous.

Quizzical

TheScavenger said:

Anyway, as far as the posts above and future posts...gonna leave this thread and hope it dies in a fire or/and gets locked or deleted by MMORPG.com staff. Not gonna bother arguing with pro-slaves or those who want to remember the days of slavery. I said my thoughts, so this will be the last post in this dumb thread. 

Hope the thread gets deleted. And its even worse because OP WANTS slavery, in a game yeah, but its the same thing as wanting it in real life. I hope he changes his mind and doesn't put slavery in at all.

Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

Not wanting to erase history is very different from wanting to repeat it.

Ungood

Humm so.. If I like playing a mage in a video game and blowing things up with fire, that means I want to go wound in real life and blow things up with fire.. ?

Well .. seems legit.

FlyByKnight

I mean since we're all for low hanging fruit and debasing ourselves because of historical accuracy what about a game based on Hacking Up, and Necklacing Colonizers. It can be like Dead Rising but maybe use UE4 so it's really accurate.

Cleffy

If we are talking about making a successful game, then include it and let people pitchfork it. It's free advertising for a low-budget game that would never be able to gain that level of exposure.

Vrika

Quizzical said:

In Europa Universalis II, every province has an associated trade good, which affects the value of owning the province.  Some trade goods are things like wool, cotton, tea, or gold.  But others include tobacco, wine, and slaves.  The ESRB felt the need to give a warning about the abstract depiction of tobacco and alcohol in their rating of the game.  But they didn't warn about the likewise abstract depiction of the slave trade.  Because apparently tobacco and alcohol are more offensive than slavery.

I realize that they were just going through a checklist of their possible warnings and slavery wasn't on their list.  But still, it's kind of ridiculous.

I don't think ESBR is meant to warn people about offensive things, they're trying to warn about things that are possibly harmful to children.

MightyUnclean

TheScavenger said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Slavery should be forgotten, and not even be put into the history books. Burn any book with slavery as far as I'm concerned. It shouldn't even be talked about or written, and hopefully one day all the statues being torn down make the dark history of slavery forgotten. The people who kept slaves should be forgotten, and maybe at most only the people who freed prisoners (which is a better word than slaves) would be the only ones remembered.

I would never play a game that had slavery of any kind. It is something in future generations that will hopefully never know "slavery" even existed.

You do know slavery is not a thing of the past, right?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2014/11/23/247-wall-st-countries-most-slaves/70033422/

"Mostly" propaganda from pro-slavery supporters and from the same people who helped get a certain person as a leader that the KKK support. 

The only thing correct is, yes slaves exist, but its not most countries and not like the past. I do admit defeat in that...there are child slaves, and women enslaved into prostitution. But it isn't slavery like it used to be. And many organizations spend countless time freeing children and women from slavery, which isn't how it used to be where they had no chance of freedom up to the civil war.

As for the link. Not gonna bother reading past what I saw in the article, its fake news and propaganda for slavery at best.

Which brings me back to the point, why is there even an article about slavery? It is only going to make others (not everyone of course) want slaves like the old times. It should be forgotten, silenced and not be given any attention or even be part of history to prevent slavery happening again.

Its why people shoot up schools, because they get put in history, the news talks about them, they get their picture plastered everywhere and are remembered forever. Same exact thing as talking about slavery.

As for child and women slaves in prostitution, that is the only thing any news article or history book should focus on (but not the criminals, only the victims), and then when that is fixed, it too should disappear so it never is repeated again

Do you really believe that humanity isn't evil enough to come up with the idea of slavery again if it is somehow, miraculously erased from human records and memory?  Not much of a believer in the edict that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it, either, I guess.  I have never before heard someone claim that the way towards societal advancement is through ignorance.

Albatroes

I thought WoW already came up with a slavery system called garrison followers? Or maybe that's just player slavery since that's all I've felt like since the whole follower system was introduced to WoW

Lithuanian

Not for this mmo, but on some other (fantasy), I would let slavery to exist. In very rough form: player's slavery.

Imagine, we have PvP mmo. One that modern-day crowds drram about: full loot, no safe zone, almost no rules (kill or be killed). You meet other player, you can kill him or:

a) he can ask to spare his life in exchange for some time of slavery

b) he willingly sells himself to be your slave.

Whatever happens, "Master" can do whatever he wants. Keep slave in cage, keep in dungeon, sent to works or just kill. Of course, nobody is sure if slave won't revolt, kill Master and get away with master's treasures, armour.

In such mmo you can have as many slaves as you want. Would it be one pretty Elf you almost fell in love to? A horde of grumpy Dwarves that you enjoy on keeping starving? Worthless Humans you may just kill (because as a slavemaster you are evil)?  Would your slave go in fashion robes as your companion (just in golden chains)? Or would you be followed by hungry horde in rags? Everything is just upon you.
And no, no NPC slavery. Not fun :evil grin:

Scot

To some extent this depends on historical accuracy, if the game comes across as historically accurate and does not have slavery that is going to look very odd. But if it has the realism of Battle Royal game you can leave out or add anything you like.

jimmywolf

TheScavenger said:

Anyway, as far as the posts above and future posts...gonna leave this thread and hope it dies in a fire or/and gets locked or deleted by MMORPG.com staff. Not gonna bother arguing with pro-slaves or those who want to remember the days of slavery. I said my thoughts, so this will be the last post in this dumb thread. 

Hope the thread gets deleted. And its even worse because OP WANTS slavery, in a game yeah, but its the same thing as wanting it in real life. I hope he changes his mind and doesn't put slavery in at all.

stand proud as the  " only " man free from been a bigot or fool in this thread as the rest of us hunt for slaves, if were not stop others too will eventuality be added to the list!

Phry

On the other hand you could make a game about African Tribal Warlords, you start off with a small village and a few warriors, and expand, taking slaves as you conquer nearby tribes, and maybe selling a few to those gullible white folks 
Thing is when making Games that are 'historically' accurate, is that context is everything. 

Quizzical

Cleffy said:

If we are talking about making a successful game, then include it and let people pitchfork it. It's free advertising for a low-budget game that would never be able to gain that level of exposure.

If you're going to go that route, then the trick is to ensure that a small number of people are highly offended but most people aren't.  At minimum, you have to ensure that your choices are defensible to a reasonable person.  If everyone who looks at your game is highly offended, you've chased away your potential customers.  But if a small fraction of people who look at your game are highly offended and will scream about it all over the place, but most people who look at it think it's fine, then the offended people are free advertising.  You get bonus points if the offended group consists mostly of non-gamers who would never have bought your game anyway but are busybodies looking for something to be offended about.

cheyane

Might be a blessing in disguise to get beaten over the head by some SJWs that will be attracted to comment on the game.