If you remove story you remove lore, you might as well call them MMORPG's, you will have killed off what makes MMOs more than just Massive Multiplayer.
Take Conan Exiles, not your typical questing MMO, they have hidden lore because it adds flavour and mystery. Otherwise the MMORPG becomes a blank canvass, with all the colour washed out of it.
The word RPG does equal story. RPG is you playing a role. People did that fine in Ultima Online which had no story.
Ultima had a ton of lore, lore is just story in the past tense.
You could argue that an MMORPG doesn't need a good version of any particular feature. It does need to have a good version of some feature, however--and preferably a lot of good features. And like all other features, if you're going to have a story, it's better to have a good story than a bad one.
I'm not sure if you're talking about MMOs, or MMORPGs, but an MMORPG must certainly have an epic story that makes you want to follow it instead of clicking next, next, next. Any RPG is worthless without story building.
MMORPG does not need a story like an RPG. I have experienced far better stories in Ultima Online than WoW. UO had little to no story driven quest. The players drove the drama and story. It was always fresh and unpredictable. Opportunity for player story is enough. The more tools to do so the better.
If i want a cinematic story I play single player Rpgs. The story of MMOs are just there to make some sense for the environmenta or why some boss monster is on some place. I never played any Mmo so far for the story.
In my first mmo, Everquest, I knew there were some story elements out there somewhere. I just never cared what they were. I was more interested in surviving, leveling, and upgrading my items. That took all my time, to the point that I completed my original epic without ever even knowing what that story was. I was also in a half dozen ring wars and all I knew was that dwarves and giants dislike one another.
So I get where the OP is coming from. But as the years have passed, there have been games where the story really made the game. The Secret World has fantastic stories. SWTOR has good stories, but you are right that other people kind of screw up your enjoyment of them. WoW has some good stories too. There are others. So I am not ready to kick stories entirely to the curb just yet. It's on a case by case basis.
Stories certainly can be good in MMOs (you gave 2 good examples), but not required, for me.
I should qualify "grand, overarching" stories from "small, contained" stories. Quests are small, self-contained stories. Saving the world or universe is grand and better served in single player games for me.
I always enjoyed just wandering in cities in World of Warcraft. In Stormreach alone, you had the little boy and girl that exchanged stealing each others' toys and ran through the streets chasing each other. You had orphans traipsing about with their teacher/adult supervisor. Gaining abilities or spells through "stories", ie quests, was cool to me.
Yet nowhere were these me, alone, saving the universe.
We need remember that MMOs do very little "great", thanks to its inherent limitations. Other genres have better combat (FPS comes to mind). Other genres have better stories (TellTale games some to mind). Other genres have better puzzle solving (I don't know examples here...). Other genres have better crafting (Minecraft comes to mind). The only thing MMOs "should" do great in is massively mulitplayer online experiences
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't know if the term STORY fits but a MMO WORLD should convey how it exists,why the residents exist,what the different races are up to and how they differ from one another.The LORE should be seen and not told exists from some pre game dialogue..This should all be conveyed and seen throughout the game and NOT a couple quests or instances that make a world look more like cubicles. IMO the design is VERY simple,make it feel like a world that belongs within that LORE ,you should feel connected and a part of the world.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A good story is an essential part of an MMORPG as it enhances the role playing elements of the game. Although I'm not into lore, good stories in MMOs have been a major factor in revisiting particular zones or even returning to some MMOs. Yes it can be immersion breaking to get a quest killing vampires when you stand before the quest giver as red eyed vamp but no game gets it 100% right.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
For instance, I have never worried about story in L2 which is my all time favorite game. To be honest, I have no idea what the story in that game is.
In Warcraft, on the other hand, the amazing story was one of the reasons why I enjoyed the game for so many years. I sometimes watch some of the Warcraft cinematics even now when I am no longer subscribed to the game.
I think there is room for both, MMORPGs with and without story.
Lineage has a story, a very good story centered around how goddess Shilen, which was meant to be the goddess of water, was banished and sealed by her mother Einhasad after she discovered that she became pregnant by her own father Gran Kain, and Eva her sister took her place has the goddes of water. In her imprisonment Shilen proclaimed herself as the goddess of destruction, and she gave birth to 6 dragons as the result her forbidden relationship with her father (Antharas dragon of earth, Valakas dragon of fire, Fafurion dragon of water, Lindvior dragon of wind, Aulakiria dragon of light and Bael Zael dragon of darkness). And together with her six sons she started a war againt her family. They just don't force players to play it for the story.
I admit, there are some MMOs I could easily tell you the plot of the story and others I have no idea even though I have put many hours into playing the game.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I don't think people really think about what they mean by "story." Some people seem to think story means abundance of lore/setting. A story is a narrative of events told from one or more perspectives, so stories make up the lore and setting so they aren't wrong.
But most people probably think story as the events that happen from game start to finish. The things that happen to your character.
Now, this is the big divide for people who think as I do, and people with a broader view of story. In most games lauded for their story, the character isn't yours, and the events are linear. Same as in books, movies, plays, etc. All the passive mediums where you have no say in the outcome and you sit back and passively are exposed to the story as it progresses.
It is certainly true passive story telling in games is extrememly popular, but goes against the title and definition of what they are. Games are an active medium and should never have a predetermined outcome. Another way to define the "games" lauded for their storytelling would be slightly interactive movies. At what point does a game stop being a game and becomes different medium?
Secondly, related specifically to rpgs - this genre was created specifically to create stories, not tell them. There is a huge difference between a developer creating the stage on which your character(s) will create a story, and a developer creating the stage for the story they have already created to unfold. Gary Gygax stated - "Roleplaying
isn’t storytelling. If the dungeon
master is directing it, it’s not a game."
I think it is important to differentiate between games that set the stage for you to create a story, and the "games" lauded for their stories that are passively exposed to you between slightly interactive story-intercessions in the movie. Or, do you play games to play games, or do you play games to ironically have a story told to you?
@blueturtle13 pretty much nailed it. An MMO like The Secret World/Legends is all about the story, while with a UO like MMO no one really cares. Although SOME lore is still appreciated with the latter.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
A "good story" will always be subjective for the most part (unless it just lacks any kin of direction and/or cohesion). People seek MMOs for different reasons. Some people to be immersed in a world and fight for a "scripted cause" while others might just want to explore and create their own story. I played FFXI for nearly a decade and could barely tell you anything story related about the game, not because it wasn't good or memorable but because it wasn't my thing. When I played, I was content with just being a merc that did stuff for random leaders and such just to get access to loot. All the 'guilds' I joined in that game never brought up the story since you could have multiple and various 'guilds' usually various activities (or some had one that did them all). Besides, I think people are too short sided when they focus on the story and lore at the forefront since those things are finite. Most people will be 'immersed' the first time through and then just want to rush through if they have to go through it multiple times. When I play, I always think about how I can comfortably do things repeatedly in an environment since that's what most mmorpgs boil down to, grinding.
Personally, I don't want to hear a boss give a long winded speech before a fight or during a transition phase every week or whatever that I have to kill him just to get his loot. Its fine if you can start the fight while the boss is going through all that but a lot of games try to make those things a 'spectacle' for 'immersion.' It honestly goes closely with "mmorpgs" need to be "challenging." Doing things for a 'challenge' is just as finite as immersion. Most people don't do the same thing everyday/week just because its challenging. They usually do it for the rewards. Its honestly kind of sad that people think they need to rely on a development team to fill in every blank space just to 'have fun.' When you read a book (assuming some people still do), it doesn't give you literally every minor detail that is going on, like the people walking down the street behind the main protagonist while he/she receives a phone call that there is an emergency or so-on, but the modern community seems to think every single basis must be covered in order for something to be 'good.' There's a lot more to a mmorpg story, like I know some people that only play SWOTR just for the aerial pvp combat.
I certainly don't need a main story. In fact, I'm tired of situations where every character in an MMO turns out to be an epic hero after a series of epic quests. To me, it's immersion breaking. I'd rather start off as some dirtbag/schmuck who has to work his way up to fame and glory in relation to those around me. Sure, we played games where we've all been the hero, but we all know the guilds and players that seriously made a name for themselves by their own deeds in game.
Give me some lore to care about the game world and the conflict. Give me some quests, story, and activities that allow me to craft my own story and place in the world. Create a great system that allows for war, conflict, intrigue/politics, and consequences. No, do not make me the savior of the game, along with everyone else, by the end.
If I were to make a list of the most important parts of MMO's it would be: 1. Optimization, It doesn't matter how good an MMO is if it won't run on your rig. 2. Combat, 90% of the time is taken up by combat, it has to be good or no joy. 3. Story, I love a good story in an MMO which probably comes from my love of reading. Before the internet I would go to a book store and always come out with 3 to 6 books. I had a wall of books at one time. Now most everything can be found in digital form so I'm a happy camper. 4. Mini-games, as in none preferred. I don't want to spend hours sorting out my inventory or moving stuff around because of a lack of space. 5. Good community, makes a world of difference when playing an MMO. 6. Everything else is negotiable.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Pretty big Misconception here releative to UO in this thread , UO had/has many stories , from Capt Blackheart to the Hag to the destruction of entire city (Moonglow) live in game btw to the underground thru the Solen line , Plague Beast Lord Surgery,etc.. etc... etc... and all of these Story Lines left permenant changes to the games some very deeply .... affecting the core mechanics of gameplay..
Now they were/are not bleeding obvious with giant ! or gold rings floating around, but there was/is plenty of story in UO , very meaningful story
I don't like games where it feels like the story is predetermined and you are just going through the motions...The Secret World felt like that to me...One of the biggest reasons why I didn't like it.
I don't like games where it feels like the story is predetermined and you are just going through the motions...The Secret World felt like that to me...One of the biggest reasons why I didn't like it.
I agree to a point. The key being "feeling" and how linear the story is, and how much control you have in shaping it. For instance, in FO 1 and 2, Arcanum, VtM: Bloodlines, and Tyranny everything you do is predetermined and leads to an outcome, but when I finished any of them I knew I could play through again and have a completely different predetermined scripts that lead to a completely different predetermined outcome. You feel like you are creating a story, because there are so many options that lock out opportunities and present you with new ones.
I guess in a small way SWTOR was the only mmorpg to attempt this - granted on a much smaller scale. But it is the only mmorpg I can think of that you can replay as the same class on the same side and have a slightly different experience with a different character concept.
The players of them do though, and they range fairly broadly, with some wanting MMORPGs they play to have what they consider a good story delivered in the way that pleases them.
When MMO's became single player experiences. I noticed the same change as you did in WoW. With the release of WotLK it felt like games were focusing more on creating a single player game inside of an MMO. I believe WotLK was the first expansion of WoW that included phasing. I remember being surprised in Icecrown, when I was on a different stage of a quest line from the person I was questing with and we could not even see each other anymore. We were both living together, so we were able to look at each other's screens and confirm that the game had divided us. I quit WoW after WothLK, but from what I have heard they kept going even more single player MMO.
I agree with your premise that MMO's don't need a single player story, but I do think they need a rich world story. The world should have something going on that draws you in. The challenge is how do you tell a rich, engaging story to thousands (or more) of people at the same time. Most MMO's handle this through phasing and instancing and other things that transform the game into a single player experience. But maybe there are better ways to tell a story.
One idea that I have is to abandon the idea of each player getting their own quest chains. Instead make all quests world quests. This means that if other players take a quest, then you might not get to. Then have those quests have branching options, so that many of the quests contain choices. Take the outcome of those choices, roll them up, and permanently change the world to further the storyline. The problem with this plan is that you will end up needing a lot more content, since not all players will get to experience all of the content. Some of it might have been completed and permanently removed from the game before a player even begins playing.
When MMO's became single player experiences. I noticed the same change as you did in WoW. With the release of WotLK it felt like games were focusing more on creating a single player game inside of an MMO. I believe WotLK was the first expansion of WoW that included phasing. I remember being surprised in Icecrown, when I was on a different stage of a quest line from the person I was questing with and we could not even see each other anymore. We were both living together, so we were able to look at each other's screens and confirm that the game had divided us. I quit WoW after WothLK, but from what I have heard they kept going even more single player MMO.
I agree with your premise that MMO's don't need a single player story, but I do think they need a rich world story. The world should have something going on that draws you in. The challenge is how do you tell a rich, engaging story to thousands (or more) of people at the same time. Most MMO's handle this through phasing and instancing and other things that transform the game into a single player experience. But maybe there are better ways to tell a story.
One idea that I have is to abandon the idea of each player getting their own quest chains. Instead make all quests world quests. This means that if other players take a quest, then you might not get to. Then have those quests have branching options, so that many of the quests contain choices. Take the outcome of those choices, roll them up, and permanently change the world to further the storyline. The problem with this plan is that you will end up needing a lot more content, since not all players will get to experience all of the content. Some of it might have been completed and permanently removed from the game before a player even begins playing.
Welcome to the boards!
I am a lore and story type myself, there are so many ways to tell a story in MMOs, they now only tend to use two. Read about it or watch a video offline, find out the story in quests. In older MMOs could pick up a book in game and read about it or learn about it from another player who had a semi-official role in the game.
@Scot ; Thanks for the welcome. You bring up a good point about MMO's not being very creative with the methods they use for storytelling. I love the idea of having books in game that you can read. I like games where the more you put into it the more you get out of it and optional in-game content like this seems like a great way to implement this.
My MMO playing is probably more limited than most (SWG, WoW, EVE, SWTOR, FF14), so I have never heard of any MMO's that have had semi-official human controlled characters in-game, but it sounds like an interesting idea. Not sure exactly how you would implement this or make sure that the semi-official in-game characters are doing a good job (unless there were development team staff), but I can see how it would create some very interesting story-telling. In the game I am working on we are making sure that all mobs in the game could be possessed by human players if needed, but I guess we could also do the same with NPC's. Very interesting.
Comments
I should qualify "grand, overarching" stories from "small, contained" stories. Quests are small, self-contained stories. Saving the world or universe is grand and better served in single player games for me.
I always enjoyed just wandering in cities in World of Warcraft. In Stormreach alone, you had the little boy and girl that exchanged stealing each others' toys and ran through the streets chasing each other. You had orphans traipsing about with their teacher/adult supervisor. Gaining abilities or spells through "stories", ie quests, was cool to me.
Yet nowhere were these me, alone, saving the universe.
We need remember that MMOs do very little "great", thanks to its inherent limitations. Other genres have better combat (FPS comes to mind). Other genres have better stories (TellTale games some to mind). Other genres have better puzzle solving (I don't know examples here...). Other genres have better crafting (Minecraft comes to mind). The only thing MMOs "should" do great in is massively mulitplayer online experiences
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
IMO the design is VERY simple,make it feel like a world that belongs within that LORE ,you should feel connected and a part of the world.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
They just don't force players to play it for the story.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
But most people probably think story as the events that happen from game start to finish. The things that happen to your character.
Now, this is the big divide for people who think as I do, and people with a broader view of story. In most games lauded for their story, the character isn't yours, and the events are linear. Same as in books, movies, plays, etc. All the passive mediums where you have no say in the outcome and you sit back and passively are exposed to the story as it progresses.
It is certainly true passive story telling in games is extrememly popular, but goes against the title and definition of what they are. Games are an active medium and should never have a predetermined outcome. Another way to define the "games" lauded for their storytelling would be slightly interactive movies. At what point does a game stop being a game and becomes different medium?
Secondly, related specifically to rpgs - this genre was created specifically to create stories, not tell them. There is a huge difference between a developer creating the stage on which your character(s) will create a story, and a developer creating the stage for the story they have already created to unfold. Gary Gygax stated - "Roleplaying isn’t storytelling. If the dungeon master is directing it, it’s not a game."
I think it is important to differentiate between games that set the stage for you to create a story, and the "games" lauded for their stories that are passively exposed to you between slightly interactive story-intercessions in the movie. Or, do you play games to play games, or do you play games to ironically have a story told to you?
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Give me some lore to care about the game world and the conflict. Give me some quests, story, and activities that allow me to craft my own story and place in the world. Create a great system that allows for war, conflict, intrigue/politics, and consequences. No, do not make me the savior of the game, along with everyone else, by the end.
Current game: Pillars of Eternity
Played: UO, AC, Eve, Fallen Earth, Aion, GW, GW2
Tried: WOW, Rift, SWTOR, ESO
Future: Camelot Unchained? Crowfall? Bless?
Lore: extremely important
If the game world isn't interesting, retention will suffer.
1. Optimization, It doesn't matter how good an MMO is if it won't run on your rig.
2. Combat, 90% of the time is taken up by combat, it has to be good or no joy.
3. Story, I love a good story in an MMO which probably comes from my love of reading. Before the internet I would go to a book store and always come out with 3 to 6 books. I had a wall of books at one time. Now most everything can be found in digital form so I'm a happy camper.
4. Mini-games, as in none preferred. I don't want to spend hours sorting out my inventory or moving stuff around because of a lack of space.
5. Good community, makes a world of difference when playing an MMO.
6. Everything else is negotiable.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
A full paragraph of written text and at the bottom you have the main objective, incase you don't care.
NEVER EVER a video clip that takes you out of the immersive world.
I guess in a small way SWTOR was the only mmorpg to attempt this - granted on a much smaller scale. But it is the only mmorpg I can think of that you can replay as the same class on the same side and have a slightly different experience with a different character concept.
I agree with your premise that MMO's don't need a single player story, but I do think they need a rich world story. The world should have something going on that draws you in. The challenge is how do you tell a rich, engaging story to thousands (or more) of people at the same time. Most MMO's handle this through phasing and instancing and other things that transform the game into a single player experience. But maybe there are better ways to tell a story.
One idea that I have is to abandon the idea of each player getting their own quest chains. Instead make all quests world quests. This means that if other players take a quest, then you might not get to. Then have those quests have branching options, so that many of the quests contain choices. Take the outcome of those choices, roll them up, and permanently change the world to further the storyline. The problem with this plan is that you will end up needing a lot more content, since not all players will get to experience all of the content. Some of it might have been completed and permanently removed from the game before a player even begins playing.
I am a lore and story type myself, there are so many ways to tell a story in MMOs, they now only tend to use two. Read about it or watch a video offline, find out the story in quests. In older MMOs could pick up a book in game and read about it or learn about it from another player who had a semi-official role in the game.
More than one way to make a story omelette.
My MMO playing is probably more limited than most (SWG, WoW, EVE, SWTOR, FF14), so I have never heard of any MMO's that have had semi-official human controlled characters in-game, but it sounds like an interesting idea. Not sure exactly how you would implement this or make sure that the semi-official in-game characters are doing a good job (unless there were development team staff), but I can see how it would create some very interesting story-telling. In the game I am working on we are making sure that all mobs in the game could be possessed by human players if needed, but I guess we could also do the same with NPC's. Very interesting.