Pantheon : Immersion and Surprises

SorensinThames

[youtube]

Wellspring

Is there a too long didn't watch version? Nice to have a few sentences about what the video is about for those that can't listen to audio at the time. 

Aethaeryn

@Wellspring ; Clearly from a fan (not that that is bad).   I barely follow the game and didn't get anything really new from it.  It did remind me of why I might like the game.

-exploration and immersion are a focus. . no in game map or quest markers.  Not all quests are the same or will be easy to find online etc.

I almost stopped listening after the first minute.  It starts with
"God is good in every day that passes brings us a day closer to logging into to Pantheon..."
"my go to savior of the genre"
"putting all my faith into [this game]"

The rest of the video is surprisingly not as effusive and was decent to watch

TEKK3N

What's Pantheon stance on Addons?

Theocritus

I feel like I have already played this and I haven't....That's the danger of basing your game around one that has been around almost 20 years.

delete5230

Love it, makes me want to cry 

Mendel

DMKano said:

As a backer of Pantheon - that video was hard to watch.

Not everyone is gifted with a good speaking voice - not his fault, but he was hard to listen to.

His points are also silly - like learning the lay of land - dude, maps for pantheon will all be made during alpha, so come game launch - the entire game will be fully mapped out on 3rd party sites - just like EQ1 was with EQAtlas. And yes as he says it will be up to the player - but lets get real 99.9% of the playerbase will use the maps.

Furthermore - someone will make a mod that will overlay the maps in game - so you won't even have to go to 3rd party sites, you'll have maps in game.

Not knowing where to go? lol - come on man, there will be day 1 guides with optimal locations to go for leveling and gear. People will know exactly where to go - because - ehm internet. 

Pantheon is based on EQ1 - EQ1 is literally a blueprint for Pantheon so those of us who've played EQ1 for years - will feel very familiar with Pantheon's base systems.

The perception system is - based on the faction system from EQ1 - your race has base faction, so just like in EQ1 if you were a dark elf necro and wanted to be liked by Freeport Paladin NPCs - you'd have to grind faction but it was doable - and yes there will be PRECISE guides for every class/race combo how to raise faction with every NPC in game. 

There is no element of surprise that can be achieved in MMOs today - as they are all based on underlying math algorithms that are easily figured out. 

I can tell you with 100% certainty that all will be known in Pantheon - the video is simply wishful thinking based on EQ1 nostalgia and putting faith in VR being able to do the impossible.

The meaning variance that ends up being in Pantheon will most likely be minimal at best - because it's extremely difficult to pull off in way that will constistly work in a predictable way.

The issue is with static content - you can make sure that all the content works 100% the way it was intended. The more variability and dynamics that are introduced - you get more unpredictable results - and broken content.

So I think that variability in content will be kept to minimal in actual release - because again it's really really hard to pull this off in a way to where it doesn't break the game.

Precisely.  This is what has happened in the past, by the same lead developer.  This is the unstated goal for this project, to produce a game that would be comfortable on the shelf in 1999 or 2005.  Problem is, this is 2018 and games aren't sold predominately from store shelves anymore.

There's no variability in the plans, nothing dynamic or generated on the fly.   The reason?  It simply hasn't been done before in other games.  Because it hasn't been done makes it risky, and risk is a big no-no for a business.

That is the reason why I am disappointed with Pantheon, it has chosen to be safe and not try anything innovative.  The initial project seemed ideal for taking risks, a known developer with a small independent team.   Instead, VR has chosen to the safe and conservative route as if their company was 10 times bigger.  Good for that, we will get a product to play.  But I can't help but feel disappointed because the genre needs some radically new ideas, not just minimally incremental changes to existing systems.

jpedrote52

TEKK3N said:

What's Pantheon stance on Addons?

No addons allowed, you can reskin the UI though.

Mylan12

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

As a backer of Pantheon - that video was hard to watch.

Not everyone is gifted with a good speaking voice - not his fault, but he was hard to listen to.

His points are also silly - like learning the lay of land - dude, maps for pantheon will all be made during alpha, so come game launch - the entire game will be fully mapped out on 3rd party sites - just like EQ1 was with EQAtlas. And yes as he says it will be up to the player - but lets get real 99.9% of the playerbase will use the maps.

Furthermore - someone will make a mod that will overlay the maps in game - so you won't even have to go to 3rd party sites, you'll have maps in game.

Not knowing where to go? lol - come on man, there will be day 1 guides with optimal locations to go for leveling and gear. People will know exactly where to go - because - ehm internet. 

Pantheon is based on EQ1 - EQ1 is literally a blueprint for Pantheon so those of us who've played EQ1 for years - will feel very familiar with Pantheon's base systems.

The perception system is - based on the faction system from EQ1 - your race has base faction, so just like in EQ1 if you were a dark elf necro and wanted to be liked by Freeport Paladin NPCs - you'd have to grind faction but it was doable - and yes there will be PRECISE guides for every class/race combo how to raise faction with every NPC in game. 

There is no element of surprise that can be achieved in MMOs today - as they are all based on underlying math algorithms that are easily figured out. 

I can tell you with 100% certainty that all will be known in Pantheon - the video is simply wishful thinking based on EQ1 nostalgia and putting faith in VR being able to do the impossible.

The meaning variance that ends up being in Pantheon will most likely be minimal at best - because it's extremely difficult to pull off in way that will constistly work in a predictable way.

The issue is with static content - you can make sure that all the content works 100% the way it was intended. The more variability and dynamics that are introduced - you get more unpredictable results - and broken content.

So I think that variability in content will be kept to minimal in actual release - because again it's really really hard to pull this off in a way to where it doesn't break the game.

Precisely.  This is what has happened in the past, by the same lead developer.  This is the unstated goal for this project, to produce a game that would be comfortable on the shelf in 1999 or 2005.  Problem is, this is 2018 and games aren't sold predominately from store shelves anymore.

There's no variability in the plans, nothing dynamic or generated on the fly.   The reason?  It simply hasn't been done before in other games.  Because it hasn't been done makes it risky, and risk is a big no-no for a business.

That is the reason why I am disappointed with Pantheon, it has chosen to be safe and not try anything innovative.  The initial project seemed ideal for taking risks, a known developer with a small independent team.   Instead, VR has chosen to the safe and conservative route as if their company was 10 times bigger.  Good for that, we will get a product to play.  But I can't help but feel disappointed because the genre needs some radically new ideas, not just minimally incremental changes to existing systems.

Actually as most attempts at innovation fail, I never expected to see anything like this from a small company like VR.  I think it would take a big company like Blizzard with deep pockets to pull something like this off that actually worked, was playable and half way balance. Of course they will never do it as it would probably cost more to make than they ever get out of it.

shassell

Some very valid points Mendel, although I think it is too early to state you are disappointed with Pantheon. Brad has always pushed the envelope... in Vanguard maybe they were too ambitious, but still one of the finest MMOs I've played. It would be nice to get some innovative ideas in there, but at the same time we are all starved and waiting on a decent game. Me personally, I want the team spirit, the cooperation, the no easy mode, the adventure and above all a believable world (yes its a fantasy game world) to explore and be part of.

Put in level scaling and I won't bother. I want to fear some areas ( remember Kithicor)
Remember when a bear dropped a skin (preferably high quality) rather than a ridiculous full suit of magic platemail.

I want to work for my rewards. I want to chat to people around the world that I am gaming with. My first group in an MMO was an American, a Frenchman, a Canadian, a German and myself, English... we had a blast down Blackburrow in EQ. Although the magic was that it was all new, and we were amazed we could all play together (laughing at our language struggles.. The American was offended I called him mate... the Canadian told him it meant Bud... the German asked why you called someone a beer. It was hilarious but fantastic fun.

Modern game etiquette considers it noobism to chat in a dungeon.  

Sometimes taking a step back makes it easier to find a better direction to go forward.

Wizardry

I don't agree with Blizzard analysis and viable game designs,imo Blizzard has a following that will buy ANYTHING,any design so Blizzard has no ethics or morals or quality to follow,just churn out anything.

The real simple example is how WOW sold right out of the gate with NO REASONING what so ever ,people just bought it.

My point is no developer should ever look at what WOW or Blizzard does and for that matter Blizzard is actually a copy cat developer anyhow.Instead design a game that is "intriguing" meaning everyday for a very long time,people are intrigued and still learning the game designs and secrets.

You can play 2 days of Wow and you already know the game,you can play 1 day in most games and you already know the game,that means for the other 300+ days of the year your bored and just going through the motions.
Instead of me constantly pointing to FFXI ,i'll just say it is VERY possible to create a new intriguing game that could be extremely popular,i cannot lay down the foundation as it would take me 500 paragraphs to explain it but EVERY single system can be designed in a way that is very unique and interesting.

Mendel

The 'big companies are risk averse' thing is why I don't expect anything innovative from Blizzard.  It is going to take a relative small company with solid funding and probably a 'name' developer with experience in the industry to step out and take on the risk and show us some game play that isn't inspired by D&D.  VR looked to fill those criteria.  My disappointment is in the fact that they chose the safe and conservative route of a 20 year old game design instead of challenging the paradigm.  We will get a game out of this.

Pantheon is likely to have new problems (deja vu reactions and game play made for the market of 20 years ago).  That's the only thing that is likely to be new with Pantheon.  Only VR will get to directly 'play' with these innovations, the rest of us can only watch and commentate.  For their sake, I hope that the market goes against the trends and embraces the slow game pace of the turn of the century.  I hope Pantheon doesn't sink VR, I want them to have another attempt at game making.

Wizardry

The BIG picture is that Pantheon has a limited budget,Brad and TEAM were FORCED right out of the gate to pick a design and cater to it that is likely 90%+similar to most likely EQ1.This team did not have the luxury of an abundance of money and time to mull over many ideas and make a NEW intriguing game nor can they afford the RISK because they WANT...NEED to target an audience instead of just saying "ok we have this really cool,great game design,we hope you guys like it",they cannot do that.

Dullahan

All that maps talk makes me wonder if any of you have played a game without a map. Even with an exact map, unless you're using a coordinate system you still get off course. I had printed maps for almost every zone in EQ (back before multiple monitors was a thing), and it was a very different experience to the GPS version games have today.

Back in reality, most people aren't running around smashing /loc every 2 seconds, so yes, not having a map with GPS will be much more conducive to exploration, will lead to getting lost, and will lead to a more immersive experience for the average player.

Dullahan

Theocritus said:

I feel like I have already played this and I haven't....That's the danger of basing your game around one that has been around almost 20 years.

Gee, which game is that? I sure wish I knew so I could go play it. I found an emulation of something kind of similar to such a game, but it was poorly managed by a bunch of crooks and got boring over 5 years ago.

Kyleran

Dullahan said:

All that maps talk makes me wonder if any of you have played a game without a map. Even with an exact map, unless you're using a coordinate system you still get off course. I had printed maps for almost every zone in EQ (back before multiple monitors was a thing), and it was a very different experience to the GPS version games have today.

Back in reality, most people aren't running around smashing /loc every 2 seconds, so yes, not having a map with GPS will be much more conducive to exploration, will lead to getting lost, and will lead to a more immersive experience for the average player.

Macros are your friend. In DAOC I had one or two key button presses for most important  commands such as /loc, /follow, /face, /houseface, /whisper, /stick just to name a few.

As a healer /loc was vital to finding my way to resurrect others, something I often did even for total strangers....

It was a different time. 

Amathe

I don't disagree with the posted video. But there's no much to it really. 

delete5230

Amathe said:

I don't disagree with the posted video. But there's no much to it really. 

We have over 7 billion people on this planet, do you think everyone had visited the Pantheon web site and knows everything about it like you ? 

Maybe their are SOME Youtuber's that would like to know what Pantheon is ! 
Maybe some never played a video game in their life, and this is a start !

It's not all about you and your knowledge of the game.

Hawkaya399

Nevermind. I'm so sick of this topic. It always brings out the worst in me. Suffice to say, I don't like maps or gps or automarkers or most of the convenience features. I don't like consequence killing features either. What I've not figured out is how to make peace with this whole topic. Through all these years I've not figured it out. I'm 40-something now and it has  been nearly 20 years since I first played EQ. I still like the same things I've always liked. I've mellowed somewhat, but only because I'm tired of arguing.

Bottom line, my expectations are low for Pantheon. Expectaations are inversely proportional to happiness. By having low expectations I'm less liable to feel betrayed when they do all the things htey said they wouldn't or when they're more clever and change obscure systems to arrive at the same ends.

I also approach it from a spiritual perspective. It's not just about a game or some fun on a saturday night. I'm too old for that.

I believe Pantheon will do its best to appeal to their niche. I think we should appreciate that and put aside the inevitable disagreements.

Xarko

Im keeping an eye on Pantheon, but bruh, some people are getting WAY too hyped for this game. That never ends well.

craftseeker

Can I get a version of the video narrated in English please?

Amathe

delete5230 said:

Amathe said:

I don't disagree with the posted video. But there's no much to it really. 

We have over 7 billion people on this planet, do you think everyone had visited the Pantheon web site and knows everything about it like you ? 

Maybe their are SOME Youtuber's that would like to know what Pantheon is ! 
Maybe some never played a video game in their life, and this is a start !

It's not all about you and your knowledge of the game.

You are right of course. For example, I am sure it was helpful to you.

Hawkaya399

Dullahan said:

All that maps talk makes me wonder if any of you have played a game without a map. Even with an exact map, unless you're using a coordinate system you still get off course. I had printed maps for almost every zone in EQ (back before multiple monitors was a thing), and it was a very different experience to the GPS version games have today.

Back in reality, most people aren't running around smashing /loc every 2 seconds, so yes, not having a map with GPS will be much more conducive to exploration, will lead to getting lost, and will lead to a more immersive experience for the average player.

I used the everlore website for maps back in the day, but I don't recall ever printing them. I didn't RELY on it. A lot of times I'd just follow my group members or ask in chat how to get somewhere, even if I could have looked on everlore. Being a ranger made things easier though. Tracking could save a lot of time looking for something. My point however is to say not having it IN-GAME is a big difference. You have to pay attention a lot more to what you see. For me, that makes all the difference. I know too because I played Wurm Online for a long time without an in-game map and had a blast. There was no tracking in that and the world wasn't zoned. In many ways it was harder than EQ ever was. No kidding. This is what cemented in me the conviction this isn't exclusively tied to EQ.

Project 1999 isn't really the same as it used to be. People are using 3rd party programs to read the chat log--looking for /loc command logs--and this automatically shows their position in a zone on a seperate window. BUT you can choose to not use those. They're not hacking the game, so they're perfectly legal.

I believe this map thing has to do with how people react to having to look for things when lacking sufficient amounts of information. So it can apply to lots of things. Some people have brains wired to look and search. Some people don't. This is why they hate it. Looking and searching isn't the same thing as solving a puzzle though. It's more patient and much less cerebral. Mayube people who like no in-game maps have lower IQ's. I suggest this becase my IQ is lower than average. Maybe it has to do with information. Looking and searching is what we do when we lack information. High IQ people want information, and hate the lack of it. So they hate searching. Another possibility might be how our brains process information. High IQ individuals narrowly focus on the important elements and filter out the unimportant. It happens automatically. It's possible searching/looking is hard or boring for them because it's filtered.

I know probably all of that makes no sense whatsoever. But anyway, here's a link about how high IQ's process (visual) information:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130523143130.htm

A brief visual task can predict IQ, according to a new study. This surprisingly simple exercise measures the brain’s unconscious ability to filter out visual movement. The study shows that individuals whose brains are better at suppressing background motion perform better on standard measures of intelligence.

(further down)

But the tables turned when presented with the larger images. The higher a person's IQ, the slower they were at detecting movement. "From previous research, we expected that all participants would be worse at detecting the movement of large images, but high IQ individuals were much, much worse," says Melnick. That counter-intuitive inability to perceive large moving images is a perceptual marker for the brain's ability to suppress background motion, the authors explain. In most scenarios, background movement is less important than small moving objects in the foreground. Think about driving in a car, walking down a hall, or even just moving your eyes across the room. The background is constantly in motion.

Dullahan

Probably more a matter of preference than strictly a matter of intelligence. I feel like those who have actually had to navigate a world like classic EQ or Wurm and have experienced being lost and learned how to find their way based on landmarks come to enjoy it. Those who have not experienced it turn their nose up at the idea.