Not sure why people are so hung on the stupid definition - who cares? MMO, not mmo, survival - whatever
Will it have fun gameplay - all that matters to me.
Definitions are important for many people. If you dont need them, then great for you, but I do not think caring about definitions is something so strange that you should not be able to get it.
I prefer being able to identify and classify things based on their definition. If we do not stick to them, then what is the point of them existing in the first place.
If someone tells me they like to listen to metal music, I know what they mean exactly because it is defined.
Just like metal defines a music genre, MMORPG defines a game genre. One that many of us care about and one we do not appreciate being violated by calling games from other genres MMORPGs. This goes beyond whether a game is fun or not.
A simple distinction is that your character can't starve to death in the Wasteland series and the original Fallout titles. Their "needs" on a survival level were not a thing.
Unless you're reducing survival to "you can die", they don't really fall into the same genre. They are certainly the progenitors of the post-apoc settings we are most familiar with though.
Mods
Mods are third party. If you include them then there is a wide variety of mod-based survival games that have not been listed beyond that of Wasteland and Fallout, extending back into many early roguelikes.
As far as features of release titles goes, I would cycle back to restate my previous points.
The original Wasteland and Fallout titles are also not particularly heavily modded games, with only a few notable mods over the years and most of them hard to find. I'm not certain survival mods were ever made for them.
Yet the entire survival genre was born out of Mods
Not quite, As pointed out by referencing Wurm, that title predates a lot of the modern trend in modding the likes of ARMA series for creating survival games. Given the original ARMA for example only came out 2006, same year as Wurm, that means Wurm was still launching as a survival game for modders to come later.
In the case of modding older games, I can again find very little as far as modding of the original titles mentioned at all, with only a few standout mods, and none of them are themselves survival mods.
Not saying Wurm invented the survival genre, but it is very much a codifier of it and there is little to no indication that the modding sphere was focused on any kind of survival games prior to it's release or even for a few years following it. Minecraft was one of the first popularizes of that genre. You have to skip forward to after 2009 with ARMA 2 for most known survival mods, and even the survival mods for Fallout 3 didn't come until ~a year later due to reliance on script extensions that were not there at release.
And I definitely ain't placing a game with "dozens" of players into the MMO category.
If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
Ok you're confusing me. Just what do you mean by "survival mechanics" Is it taking progressive damage from starvation and dehydration only and any other type of progressive damage (poison, radiation, disease, etc.) doesn't count?
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If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded?
On an honest level, no I have not.
If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.
An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok. Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.
And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.
Now you know...and knowing is half the battle
I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
Ok you're confusing me. Just what do you mean by "survival mechanics" Is it taking progressive damage from starvation and dehydration only and any other type of progressive damage (poison, radiation, disease, etc.) doesn't count?
In general, it's the consideration of what values are commonly tied to a character's life cycle.
In the context of a post apocalyptic game, radiation can be a survival mechanic. But if that's not accompanied by other core survival mechanics like nutrition/hydration, etc then it's an incomplete system and not really a survival game. the radiation mechanic is not exclusively or specifically a feature of survival systems, as it can be used purely as a combat and environmental threat without touching on the survival genre.
Same statement applies to poison, disease, etc. Those can and often are utilized as combat mechanics over survival mechanics.
This shouldn't be hard to get. Having one feature similar to another genre does not make that game into that genre. It's a set of features that defines the given genre which needs to be present. There are ultimately permutations and not "all" features need be the same across games of the genres, but a good chunk of them retain common traits.
Like we don't call the Sims a survival game even though it has food, bathroom, hygiene, etc. It's a simulation game and it's focus and feature-set expands elsewhere.
If you want to claim a game is of a given genre, then it should at least have a reasonable display of features that are hallmark of that genre.
If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded?
On an honest level, no I have not.
If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.
An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok. Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.
And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.
Now you know...and knowing is half the battle
I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
You can scroll back in out conversations to see I actually mentioned survival games having roots in roguelikes.
Thanks for jumping on the bandwagon though, really displays who here actually knows "little to nothing".
If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded?
On an honest level, no I have not.
If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.
An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok. Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.
And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.
Now you know...and knowing is half the battle
I was about to add , Survival games roots are in rogue-likes Dwarf Fortress comes to mind as a fully fleshed out Survival game .. Unreal World is a good one as well as Wayward and many many others
Wayward is a really fun game!
yea , and it has come so far in the past 18 months since getting on Steam , it really helped push it along ..
If you want to call taking damage "survival mechanics" then sure, there were plenty of survival games.
So you never played any of the early survival games then. Like Unreal World? or Stranded?
On an honest level, no I have not.
If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.
An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok. Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.
And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
Just admit it. You know little to nothing about the survival genre. Stranded 1 and Stranded 2 offered survival games long before Wurm and were built to be moddable at release. Unreal World is known as the first. Survival games were born from roguelike games and mods of those games.
Now you know...and knowing is half the battle
You do understand all three games you listed were survival games before any modding took place, right?
This still fails to reaffirm your original "mods" statement and fails to contradict my point regarding Wasteland series or the original Fallout titles.
Hell, it fails to contradict my original statement you responded to.
They were not the first, but you want to poll a bunch of people and ask how many of them know titles older than those as far as people having an awareness of the genre goes?
There were platformers before Mario, but how many people can name them?
You have made a facetious argument here, and it's disappointing for me to see.
Actually you said there was 'tinkering' before Wurm yet you are wrong and were proven so. There are a whole slew of survival games created decades ago and many of those are still being played today. Just cut your loses and move along
You do understand all three games you listed were survival games before any modding took place, right?
This still fails to reaffirm your original "mods" statement and fails to contradict my point regarding Wasteland series or the original Fallout titles.
Hell, it fails to contradict my original statement you responded to.
They were not the first, but you want to poll a bunch of people and ask how many of them know titles older than those as far as people having an awareness of the genre goes?
There were platformers before Mario, but how many people can name them?
You have made a facetious argument here, and it's disappointing for me to see.
Fail. Stranded was a moddable game from release which allowed us to build all kinds of things into the game that were never even there at retail. I wrote 7 mods for it and 9 for Stranded 2.
Fail. Wurm online was never a popularizer of anything. Take a poll of non-mmorpg players and ask if they have even heard of it. That is a facetious statement and it is disappointing for me to see.
Next?
"You do understand all three games you listed were survival games before any modding took place, right?"
"and later Minecraft"
You're continuing to sink into considerably more petty grounds now. I don't even have to say new things to correct your argument.
Comments
*plays ska-core*
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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
In the case of modding older games, I can again find very little as far as modding of the original titles mentioned at all, with only a few standout mods, and none of them are themselves survival mods.
Not saying Wurm invented the survival genre, but it is very much a codifier of it and there is little to no indication that the modding sphere was focused on any kind of survival games prior to it's release or even for a few years following it. Minecraft was one of the first popularizes of that genre. You have to skip forward to after 2009 with ARMA 2 for most known survival mods, and even the survival mods for Fallout 3 didn't come until ~a year later due to reliance on script extensions that were not there at release.
And I definitely ain't placing a game with "dozens" of players into the MMO category.
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거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If you wish to indicate games that had survival mechanics that are older, that's fine and doesn't really break the point either.
An older survival game exists than Wurm? Ok.
Was that game one that was corrected as not being a survival game? Nope.
And the taking damage comment was in relation to your argument that breaking a leg = survival.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
In the context of a post apocalyptic game, radiation can be a survival mechanic. But if that's not accompanied by other core survival mechanics like nutrition/hydration, etc then it's an incomplete system and not really a survival game. the radiation mechanic is not exclusively or specifically a feature of survival systems, as it can be used purely as a combat and environmental threat without touching on the survival genre.
Same statement applies to poison, disease, etc. Those can and often are utilized as combat mechanics over survival mechanics.
This shouldn't be hard to get. Having one feature similar to another genre does not make that game into that genre. It's a set of features that defines the given genre which needs to be present. There are ultimately permutations and not "all" features need be the same across games of the genres, but a good chunk of them retain common traits.
Like we don't call the Sims a survival game even though it has food, bathroom, hygiene, etc. It's a simulation game and it's focus and feature-set expands elsewhere.
If you want to claim a game is of a given genre, then it should at least have a reasonable display of features that are hallmark of that genre.
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Thanks for jumping on the bandwagon though, really displays who here actually knows "little to nothing".
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
This still fails to reaffirm your original "mods" statement and fails to contradict my point regarding Wasteland series or the original Fallout titles.
Hell, it fails to contradict my original statement you responded to.
"While there was some tinkering before, Wurm Online and later Minecraft is generally considered the progenitor/popularizer of the survival genre."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/474224/fallout-76-is-indeed-an-mmorpg-and-it-sounds-pretty-great-mmorpg-com-news/p10#h5i0Ta6dyXQfZ01r.99
They were not the first, but you want to poll a bunch of people and ask how many of them know titles older than those as far as people having an awareness of the genre goes?
There were platformers before Mario, but how many people can name them?
You have made a facetious argument here, and it's disappointing for me to see.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/474224/fallout-76-is-indeed-an-mmorpg-and-it-sounds-pretty-great-mmorpg-com-news/p11#rjrEXtGoTkIvCMek.99
Please don't try such dishonest stunts. I thought you were less petty than that.
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"and later Minecraft"
You're continuing to sink into considerably more petty grounds now. I don't even have to say new things to correct your argument.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
How much longer do you intend to grasp at straws?
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