I don't think you understand what 'depth' is in this context.
We talk about interdependence of many features in the game, which in retail is near nonexistence. You have lots of options and alternatives, yes, but you doesn't really need any of them to take you to the finishing line. Pre-Cataclysm WoW was like a jigsaw puzzle - you needed to dabble a bit in everywhere to get what you wanted.
What interdependence of systems/features existed in vanilla wow that doesn't exist today? As i pointed out, crafting was basically worthless back then and many people only picked up gathering professions to sell to the morons who actually took up the crafting ones.
If you want to say crafting was needed in vanilla to get what you wanted, it's EVEN MORE needed now than it ever was in vanilla. You can't expect to do well in raiding without gems from jewelcrafting, flasks and elixirs from alchemy, food buffs from cooking, scopes from engineering, blacksmiths being able to drop an anvil mid-raid so you don't have to waste time having people hearth to repair.
So we got crafting squared away as being more in depth in current WoW than vanilla. What other systems are you talking about that was more in depth in vanilla WoW than current? It wasn't the talent tree. So what other system?
Vanilla was famous of multiple buffs and effects you had to farm mats for, even so that Blizzard had to nerf it and reduce the number of buffs a player could have. The best ammo for hunters was crafted by engineers, Dark Iron set was made by blacksmiths for tanks to tank MC, not to mention weapon enchants or Bloodvine mage set crafted by tailors.
But i wasn't even talking about crafting. In a very basic level these games are totally different. In vanilla mobs were tough and they hit hard, so you wanted to gear up constantly to level up faster. To do that, you needed gear, which came almost exclusively from dungeons and dungeon quests, which you had to find and unlock by doing pre-quests in outside world. You also had to gear up for these dungeons in order to upgrade your gear. Weak tanks and useless dps were often kicked and replaced, so you had to take care of your performance.
Now, in Legion you level up by doing a series of quests, which give you all the gear you need to steamroll the mobs, OR you can spam dungeon finder and take the dungeon quests at the beginning of the instance. No need to go outside world to find or unlock anything, just grab them and follow your tank who kills everything before you can even loot the corpses, OR you can spend your time in BG's and level up by doing PvP if boring quests and easy dungeons doesn't fit to your play style, etc.
There's lot more features and mechanics in Legion WoW, no one is denying that, but the interdependence is missing. You can choose one feature and ignore the rest if you want to. I guess that's my biggest problem with current retail.
one can tell you did not play legion much. No quests in dungeons. they are all gained outside the dungeons from questing, mission table, or class quests.
I don't think you understand what 'depth' is in this context.
We talk about interdependence of many features in the game, which in retail is near nonexistence. You have lots of options and alternatives, yes, but you doesn't really need any of them to take you to the finishing line. Pre-Cataclysm WoW was like a jigsaw puzzle - you needed to dabble a bit in everywhere to get what you wanted.
What interdependence of systems/features existed in vanilla wow that doesn't exist today? As i pointed out, crafting was basically worthless back then and many people only picked up gathering professions to sell to the morons who actually took up the crafting ones.
If you want to say crafting was needed in vanilla to get what you wanted, it's EVEN MORE needed now than it ever was in vanilla. You can't expect to do well in raiding without gems from jewelcrafting, flasks and elixirs from alchemy, food buffs from cooking, scopes from engineering, blacksmiths being able to drop an anvil mid-raid so you don't have to waste time having people hearth to repair.
So we got crafting squared away as being more in depth in current WoW than vanilla. What other systems are you talking about that was more in depth in vanilla WoW than current? It wasn't the talent tree. So what other system?
Vanilla was famous of multiple buffs and effects you had to farm mats for, even so that Blizzard had to nerf it and reduce the number of buffs a player could have. The best ammo for hunters was crafted by engineers, Dark Iron set was made by blacksmiths for tanks to tank MC, not to mention weapon enchants or Bloodvine mage set crafted by tailors.
But i wasn't even talking about crafting. In a very basic level these games are totally different. In vanilla mobs were tough and they hit hard, so you wanted to gear up constantly to level up faster. To do that, you needed gear, which came almost exclusively from dungeons and dungeon quests, which you had to find and unlock by doing pre-quests in outside world. You also had to gear up for these dungeons in order to upgrade your gear. Weak tanks and useless dps were often kicked and replaced, so you had to take care of your performance.
Now, in Legion you level up by doing a series of quests, which give you all the gear you need to steamroll the mobs, OR you can spam dungeon finder and take the dungeon quests at the beginning of the instance. No need to go outside world to find or unlock anything, just grab them and follow your tank who kills everything before you can even loot the corpses, OR you can spend your time in BG's and level up by doing PvP if boring quests and easy dungeons doesn't fit to your play style, etc.
There's lot more features and mechanics in Legion WoW, no one is denying that, but the interdependence is missing. You can choose one feature and ignore the rest if you want to. I guess that's my biggest problem with current retail.
one can tell you did not play legion much. No quests in dungeons. they are all gained outside the dungeons from questing, mission table, or class quests.
I'm pretty sure in Legion they had quests internally in dungeons. I played about 2 weeks ago, and was leveling in dungeons and in a lot of them you are thrown a generic KILL ALL THE BOSSES quest, and then you sometimes had an NPC in the beginning that gave you a couple quests.
I don't think you understand what 'depth' is in this context.
We talk about interdependence of many features in the game, which in retail is near nonexistence. You have lots of options and alternatives, yes, but you doesn't really need any of them to take you to the finishing line. Pre-Cataclysm WoW was like a jigsaw puzzle - you needed to dabble a bit in everywhere to get what you wanted.
What interdependence of systems/features existed in vanilla wow that doesn't exist today? As i pointed out, crafting was basically worthless back then and many people only picked up gathering professions to sell to the morons who actually took up the crafting ones.
If you want to say crafting was needed in vanilla to get what you wanted, it's EVEN MORE needed now than it ever was in vanilla. You can't expect to do well in raiding without gems from jewelcrafting, flasks and elixirs from alchemy, food buffs from cooking, scopes from engineering, blacksmiths being able to drop an anvil mid-raid so you don't have to waste time having people hearth to repair.
So we got crafting squared away as being more in depth in current WoW than vanilla. What other systems are you talking about that was more in depth in vanilla WoW than current? It wasn't the talent tree. So what other system?
Vanilla was famous of multiple buffs and effects you had to farm mats for, even so that Blizzard had to nerf it and reduce the number of buffs a player could have. The best ammo for hunters was crafted by engineers, Dark Iron set was made by blacksmiths for tanks to tank MC, not to mention weapon enchants or Bloodvine mage set crafted by tailors.
But i wasn't even talking about crafting. In a very basic level these games are totally different. In vanilla mobs were tough and they hit hard, so you wanted to gear up constantly to level up faster. To do that, you needed gear, which came almost exclusively from dungeons and dungeon quests, which you had to find and unlock by doing pre-quests in outside world. You also had to gear up for these dungeons in order to upgrade your gear. Weak tanks and useless dps were often kicked and replaced, so you had to take care of your performance.
Now, in Legion you level up by doing a series of quests, which give you all the gear you need to steamroll the mobs, OR you can spam dungeon finder and take the dungeon quests at the beginning of the instance. No need to go outside world to find or unlock anything, just grab them and follow your tank who kills everything before you can even loot the corpses, OR you can spend your time in BG's and level up by doing PvP if boring quests and easy dungeons doesn't fit to your play style, etc.
There's lot more features and mechanics in Legion WoW, no one is denying that, but the interdependence is missing. You can choose one feature and ignore the rest if you want to. I guess that's my biggest problem with current retail.
one can tell you did not play legion much. No quests in dungeons. they are all gained outside the dungeons from questing, mission table, or class quests.
I'm pretty sure in Legion they had quests internally in dungeons. I played about 2 weeks ago, and was leveling in dungeons and in a lot of them you are thrown a generic KILL ALL THE BOSSES quest, and then you sometimes had an NPC in the beginning that gave you a couple quests.
there is a completion reward...not really a quest. It does not appear in your quest log only on the screen. There is no NPC in the dungeons giving quests.
The classic servers are going to be a joke. Getting people together to do 40 man raids is going to be next to impossible. There is no decent crafting so what are people going to do once they hit 60? As much as I dislike the way Wow has progressed, it has come far since the launch and going back to the beginning just sounds really dumb to me.
I'm going to guess that they can put a LOT more people on each server than they did when vanilla launched. In the likelihood that they have multiple servers, certain ones will be more focused towards progression.
I'm curious, have you raided recently? In WoW or any other game? Like true blue end game raiding?
I ask because i wonder if you know how hard it is to get 20 like minded raiders to commit to even just 2 days a week 3 hours a day. Multiplying that by 2 just....compounds that difficulty. There's no shortage of players in current WoW, and yet it is still extremely difficult to get even just 20 likeminded players together to raid together on a set schedule.
That's typical this time of the year though, content is on farm, summer is here, current expansion is getting long in the tooth, commitment to raids always gets iffy at this stage.
There certainly has been a drift away from large raid groups so it will be interesting to see how 40 man raids fare in classic, I don't think it'll be that much of a problem because people are joining to do things like BWL, AQ40 and Naxx but time will tell.
It's not a matter of it being this time of year. It's always difficult. You always have players drifting in and out of the raid, sometimes some don't show up without any warning and you're forced to pug if you don't have any bench players around. This happens from first raid tier all the way to now. Talk to any raid recruiter and they will say the same thing that i'm saying. If you told them they now had to go and find 40 people instead of 20, they'd laugh and walk away.
It's the main reason why WildStar failed. Because they wanted to heavily push that idea of 40man raids. Granted blizzard said even if a very very small group of people remain they're fine with that and wont shut it down...i still find it hard to believe but they did say it so.
Will the crowd who play older WoW versions on private servers pay to play Classic? Maybe. Will they have to buy a full game again and on top of that, subscription?
WOW classic is and will continue to be super cheap.
My only question is can I sub just to classic and not for the current version too.
What if you just sub to "WoW" and they let you pick what server you want to play on - live, classic, whatever just like now? I'm sort of hoping that's how they roll. You won't need a separate sub. Your $15 will cover any WoW server you want to play on.
I'm pretty sure they've stated it will be a separate sub to help cover costs of this development and determine if it's worth continuing.
Will the crowd who play older WoW versions on private servers pay to play Classic? Maybe. Will they have to buy a full game again and on top of that, subscription?
WOW classic is and will continue to be super cheap.
My only question is can I sub just to classic and not for the current version too.
What if you just sub to "WoW" and they let you pick what server you want to play on - live, classic, whatever just like now? I'm sort of hoping that's how they roll. You won't need a separate sub. Your $15 will cover any WoW server you want to play on.
I think this would have to be the way they do it. It's the way any of the classic servers work for every other game, EQ1, 2, Rift, Archeage, Runescape. If they try to charge separately that will get rid of a large chunk of the current playerbase who would be willing to try it out.
Will the crowd who play older WoW versions on private servers pay to play Classic? Maybe. Will they have to buy a full game again and on top of that, subscription?
WOW classic is and will continue to be super cheap.
My only question is can I sub just to classic and not for the current version too.
What if you just sub to "WoW" and they let you pick what server you want to play on - live, classic, whatever just like now? I'm sort of hoping that's how they roll. You won't need a separate sub. Your $15 will cover any WoW server you want to play on.
I'm pretty sure they've stated it will be a separate sub to help cover costs of this development and determine if it's worth continuing.
They have implied quite the opposite: they will be willing to do it no matter the player count, and they plan on providing the server long-term so no one fears they'll start a character and have the server pulled out from under them.
Will the crowd who play older WoW versions on private servers pay to play Classic? Maybe. Will they have to buy a full game again and on top of that, subscription?
WOW classic is and will continue to be super cheap.
My only question is can I sub just to classic and not for the current version too.
What if you just sub to "WoW" and they let you pick what server you want to play on - live, classic, whatever just like now? I'm sort of hoping that's how they roll. You won't need a separate sub. Your $15 will cover any WoW server you want to play on.
I'm pretty sure they've stated it will be a separate sub to help cover costs of this development and determine if it's worth continuing.
They have implied quite the opposite: they will be willing to do it no matter the player count, and they plan on providing the server long-term so no one fears they'll start a character and have the server pulled out from under them.
By worth continuing, I mean whether they should do the same for TBC and WOTLK
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