I'm not sure how one posts their opinion on social media but expects no commentary on it from anyone. Whether you like it or not, posting on social media is akin to getting up on a podium and announcing your opinion to everyone that can view your profile. There were folks trying to tell others they shouldn't respond to her with their own opinions or reactions, but why? She clearly posted it for everyone to read.
If you want to post your opinion without anyone being able to respond to you where you post it, start your own blog website.
Digital buble or safe spaces. People create a social media and shut themselves down surrouding it by just the ones that agree so they get their validation. It's sad.
Edit: That may work on Facebook, but that's not why or how twiter works.
I don't remember where I heard/read it, but Twitter was explained to me as "talking to yourself in a crowded room and hoping for someone to hear you".
Personally, I'm not big on social media -- I'm far too old to figure that mess out and its far too toxic for me. Forum postings are about as far as I go and even those I am picky about.
There is no doubt that this will have the impact of game companies starting to cut all communication with their clients by all member's of staff.
It's sad really, as gamers often ask why there is not more open communication between the company and the staff, why they won't talk with the masses or be more open, and this my dudes, is why.
There is nothing gained by someone that works for a company to slog it in the trenches with the masses, if they are going to risk losing their jobs for just being a normal person on their social media, if they always need to put on the professional face, then it's a work account, nothing more and will be treated as such.
Ergo, they are going to turn that off, close the doors, and cut all communication unless they are paid for their time.
So when anyone asks why a game company is not more open with them.. this is why.
The problem with your logic is that she wasn't being a normal person on social media, she was being a strait up asshole. There's a distinct difference.
Everyone is an Opinionated Asshole and it's just a matter of what triggers them. Which just makes people want to hide their "real selves" if they are going to be fired for expressing their legit feels on a subject matter they may be very passionate about.
If you were expecting some sanitized professional response from someone on what should be their personal social outlet, then it's just an attempt to keep people stuck at work, all the time, forever, and, lets get real, no one wants that.
If that means, to put their hair down and be themselves, they will need to make alt-accounts that have no relation to their professional life, or simply shut off communication, and make their settings private and their circle small, and let the PR people deal with the masses, they will gladly do that.
Keep in mind, it's only getting worse for them to be open with the masses as it's too much a risk and no reward for them at this point.
And no one, no matter how.. "normal" .. they might be.. wants to take the risk losing their job over playing on twitter. And the few that would.. are going to be real characters..
I totally understand what you're saying.
In my mind, when you're raging at fans of your own online game on a Twitter page that has your real name, job title, and employer's name on the bio, its the equivalent of going into work and yelling at customers with your name badge still on.
Actions have consequences.
It's HR/PR 101 at most jobs now that they tell you to remove your badge when leaving work, and to act in a responsible and civil manner befitting of the company when you *are* wearing your badge, no matter where you're at. Its even more common now to sign documents regarding social media interactions with customers; I fully expect this was the case with Arenanet.
I was not expecting Price and Fries to be fired over this incident, however, that leads me to believe that this may not have been a first-time incident (especially not in Price's case, given her history). I do think it is a shame that two people lost their jobs over this, and am quite disgusted at the ensuing celebration of their termination. Though, I do think MO/ANet made a good decision in regards to timing and swiftness of the resolution.
Yes.. you take a risk when you mention where you work on social media.
That is the whole point.. gamers will learn swiftly that more and more Industry professionals will not feel it is worth the risk, and no matter how they go about it, this will have the effect of curtailing communication.
No one wants to lose their job just to express an opinion or have feelings on a subject matter.
Also, to address your original point about developers no longer wanting to interact with their fans on their free time/social media ... This also concerned me. However, Matthew is a narrative designer at ANet and he says they have no intention of not interacting with their player base via social media.
No.. he is only talking about himself, he does not speak for anyone but himself, nor does he address any of the insecurities that other staff may have.
Also, we have no idea if this is his personal account, or just a "work account" that he uses.
I mean, I am just a gamer, and I have a twitter account that I use for gaming, that uses my "Main Character" that I played back in EQ as my Personal Identity, and another Twitter that has my real name that I use to talk about my dog and shit.
Just like I do the same thing for Facebook.. and never will the two meet or mention each other.
Please re read my post and the linked tweet. He does use the word "our fans" in his message, implying that he may be speaking for one or more developers who currently interact with the fanbase. While it isn't a direct response from ANet, assuming they won't interact with the playerbase anymore in the face of no evidence is less likely than assuming they will continue to interact with evidence.
It clearly lists his real name, his position at ANet, and says he will continue to interact as he has in the past. Who cares if it is his professional or personal account? He's entitled to interact with the fanbase however he chooses.
No.. because we just witnessed the firing of 2 anet employees for interacting with the fandom. So, absolutely not, are they allowed to interact however they chose, they will have to interact in a way befitting Anet.
Also, it's PR move to use plurals, when they really are only talking about themselves, it adds a depth to say things like "We" to really mean "Myself and the Company" to say "Our fans" it means the Company's Fans, not that they are speaking for anyone else in the company other then themselves.
Now, with that said, this more then cements that this is their PR Twitter, and this is them trying to put out a fire. They might not even have a personal twitter, and stay off Social Media in their down time.. which.. truth be told, is not a bad idea.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Please re read my post and the linked tweet. He does use the word "our fans" in his message, implying that he may be speaking for one or more developers who currently interact with the fanbase. While it isn't a direct response from ANet, assuming they won't interact with the playerbase anymore in the face of no evidence is less likely than assuming they will continue to interact with evidence.
It clearly lists his real name, his position at ANet, and says he will continue to interact as he has in the past. Who cares if it is his professional or personal account? He's entitled to interact with the fanbase however he chooses.
No.. because we just witnessed the firing of 2 anet employees for interacting with the fandom. So, absolutely not, are they allowed to interact however they chose, they will have to interact in a way befitting Anet.
Come on. That's a very obtuse way of looking at the situation. They
weren't fired for interacting with the player base -- they were fired
for *how* they interacted with the player base.
I think Anet is relatively justified. If you are using something that is tied to your work, in any way, and using it to say things that may look bad on you, and in turn the company you work for, you are walking a thin line. I've had jobs where they blatantly tell you "Do not post X type of things if your social media has any ties to us on it" basically saying, don't wear the badge and say things that could be perceived as controversial.
I don't see how Arena Net was supposed to do anything else. She acted on behalf of the company and represented them very poorly. Unfortunately for her, that is now immortalized and every future employer will see it along with more of her vitriol.
On a personal note, I'm very tired of seeing modern day feminists play the victim card when it comes to stuff like this. She received very gentle criticism/disagreement and she responded with, "I'm a woman. Look at what I have to deal with."
I'd hate to see how this woman responds when she's up against some real adversity.
I'm not sure how one posts their opinion on social media but expects no commentary on it from anyone. Whether you like it or not, posting on social media is akin to getting up on a podium and announcing your opinion to everyone that can view your profile. There were folks trying to tell others they shouldn't respond to her with their own opinions or reactions, but why? She clearly posted it for everyone to read.
If you want to post your opinion without anyone being able to respond to you where you post it, start your own blog website.
I have all my Social Media that is linked to my Real Name, set private, so only people who I have friended can see it. It's all locked down as tight as I can get it.
My gamer profile is public, but Unless you know where "At that fucking taco Shop" is, you would never find my place of employment.. especially given I do not work at a taco shop.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Had to create an account to say this, but this article is extremely biased and one sided (just like others stated previously). Nowhere did the article indicate the absolute vile statements of Jessica Price (one of the two devs who were fired) after receiving constructive criticism from one of the content creators and partners of Anet.
Even after Deroir backed off in a civil manner, she continued on her twitter account spouting against him:
If this is the way professional interaction looks like, as a customer/player I wouldn't like to have ANY interaction with these kind of devs at all.
In before when someone says it's their private social media account, well it is NOT since it's open to public AND she is repping the ArenaNet tag while continuing to post vile comments like this:
I'm glad ArenaNet finally decided to cut the ties with her and Peter Fries (who tried to white knight her enabling her behavior) and set a good example of how such people should be treated if they cross their professional boundaries especially when you're dealing with your own game's player.
Like they say, "Don't bite the hand which is feeding you" - It couldn't have been more appropriate.
Shit always goes wrong when game makers listen and respond to people who know nothing about game development. A good developer listens to feedback and take notes, but completely ignore the person saying it.
A few things I realized after reading this thread (to this point, anyway).
As a society, we are far too interested in monitoring each other's opinion. A discussion *should* offer the opportunity for both sides to learn something, or at least think about another person's viewpoint.
I'm glad that I have avoided the popular social media applications to date. It is a sad state that our society cannot exchange ideas without insults and cursing, and every opinion is subject to vetting by political correctness, the newest weapon of mass destruction. At least, it's used as one.
I thought the issue was fostered by the anonymous nature of the internet. Now, I'm convinced that people cannot check themselves when staring at words on a display. Ideas on a display aren't respected without the physical threat of violence, and manners are too easily disposed.
I suspect this aspect of human nature is part of the reason we were voted out of the trees by the cool apes.
I will never get the 45 minutes it took to read this thread back.
Is it even possible to put enough *sighs* on the end of a thread?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
i did not like what JP said about TB's death, i loved that man and i donated 1000 euros to the fund raise campaign for his wife and i am not rich person at all, i did it out of respect for TB.
that being said, i believe every one has right to express their opinion without fear specially on twitter , i am defender of freedom of speech, if you do not like it just put that person on block, but sacking her because she said something you do not like on twitter is stupid and over reacting and complete dictatorship from anet, this will have bad reputation for anet inside game industry because good developers wont work for such dictator company.
One day communications with fans on social media will only be allowed through A.I. like Watson, Cortana, Siri, Alexa, or Google Assistant. All will be politically correct and perfect white knights for the companies they represent. Mark my words, it's the future.
i hope this day comes soon. Game makers don't need to waste time talking to gamers directly. We all know it always goes wrong when that happens, no matter who is right or wrong. Devs and users aren't friends. They make games, and we buy them. That's as far as our business go with them. No need to try and strike conversations on social media.
EDIT: from the other posts i read, that person got triggered easily. It you know you get triggered easily, just avoid social media interactions with strangers. That was her only mistake. You never know when the internet is trying to trigger you. Same goes to the user responding to her, if you either get offended easily or enjoy triggering people, then dont't complain when others talk down on you.
There is absolutely nothing "dictatorship" about Anet removing two employees who broke their code of conduct by "attacking the community" in a public social media. Every company has their own rules of conduct and if an employee fails to abide by it then the company has full right to fire the employee.
Shit always goes wrong when game makers listen and respond to people who know nothing about game development. A good developer listens to feedback and take notes, but completely ignore the person saying it.
I partially think you are right... But there is your mistake: What makes you think those people know nothing about game development?
What now? Everyone with an online account in some sort of social media is an average joe working minimum wage in some place and has no hobby or does not study?
The world is very big, you would be surprised by whom you are talking to in any given social media.
Edit: Typo
But.... what makes you think i'm assuming that anyone who isn't a game developer has to be an average joe with no hobby working minimum wage?
A lot of these people also love to cause problems in social media to pull attention to their social media, by triggering devs publicly. Many of them aren't involved in game development.
Devs are normal people just like all of us. It's simply human nature that some people get triggered easier than others. If these 2 writers got fired for breaking ANET terms then sure, they should have known better. But that doesn't mean the people on reddit/twitter who triggered them are little angels, they caused all of this.
She has a point. Males shouldn't be telling females how their work is or what to do. On top of that. The person who degraded her work did seem pretty sexist...why did he target her and her only? Why not anyone else on the GW2 team?
Guess NCsoft showed they tolerate sexism in the industry by then firing her when all she did was defend herself against a sexist. And then another co-worker defended her, and got fired too. No wonder I avoid any NCsoft game.
and 1 other.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
She has a point. Males shouldn't be telling females how their work is or what to do. On top of that. The person who degraded her work did seem pretty sexist...why did he target her and her only? Why not anyone else on the GW2 team?
Guess NCsoft showed they tolerate sexism in the industry by then firing her when all she did was defend herself against a sexist. And then another co-worker defended her, and got fired too. No wonder I avoid any NCsoft game.
also, to add. If she was a male and made the same exact comments, I'm pretty sure this would have gone down A LOT different. As in...a lot less would care, and wouldn't be fired.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I still don't think I understand what the other dev did to get fired.
Her reply, at least the one I've been seeing sounded a best snarky. It wasn't angry or explosive.
This feels very similar to the experience with Sarah Sanders tweeting with her official account about the restaurant that kicked her out. But simply with roles reversed. I think a bigger conversation needs to be made about when an employee, any employee is representing themselves or who they work for when they use social media.
Regardless your feelings of someone, you better have a good reason to post a tweet about why it's a good thing someone passed away.
She has a point. Males shouldn't be telling females how their work is or what to do. On top of that. The person who degraded her work did seem pretty sexist...why did he target her and her only? Why not anyone else on the GW2 team?
Guess NCsoft showed they tolerate sexism in the industry by then firing her when all she did was defend herself against a sexist. And then another co-worker defended her, and got fired too. No wonder I avoid any NCsoft game.
also, to add. If she was a male and made the same exact comments, I'm pretty sure this would have gone down A LOT different. As in...a lot less would care, and wouldn't be fired.
...I male did get fired but you're right, no one cares about him.
yup, a male did get fired over it. But if BOTH were males, it be a lot different cause barely anyone is talking about the male that did get fired. As you said, no one cares about him and probably cause he is a male. Which is actually sexism, even if to the person it isn't apparent. Its like someone being a racist or has islamaphobia even if they don't realize they have it, the vast majority of people subconsciously make or do racist things every day without realizing it even if they say they don't.
For example is Kanye West (using him cause he was big on the news recently as a colored person), whether one likes him or not, if he is on a bus and the person (even if they dislike him) decide not to get on that bus with him, that is a racist act.
Which goes back to this story. Why is barely anything focused on the guy being fired? Only a FEMALE? The male pretty much agreed with the female, so he pretty much made the same statement as she did. But no one cares cause "oh its a guy, its okay, lets focus on the female only". That is sexist, even if its a subconscious act.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I still don't think I understand what the other dev did to get fired.
The tweets that lead to Peter Fries getting fired were since removed.
They essentially involved telling the fans involved in the initial
discussion that nobody asked for their feedback. Which is probably worse
than what was said by Jessica Price as a whole, as it is specifically
directed at consumers as a whole and paints the company in a
negative light. Similarly, tweets regarding being "on the clock" and
"not caring about fans" were removed from Price's feed as well. I assume
it is ANet scrubbing the evidence of their name's involvement in the
issue.
Regardless of what we think here, it took them more than 24 hours for Mike O' Brien to post his final decision. It's safe to assume that they had internal discussion with the respective employees. What most folks are assuming is that it was just based on this incident when it could very well be the result accumulation of internal drama caused by the devs (which will never be public) and this public incident just provoked it enough for ArenaNet to pull the trigger on them.
Why is it surprising to you that if one person says something quotable that's worthy of them getting fired over, and a second person says "yeah! I agree!", that people would focus more on the initial comments that the second person is agreeing with?
... So some guy made a fairly innocuous comment to her little Shitter post and she turned into a raging dickhead and got herself fired. Wow, smart. I hope she enjoys being unemployed because after this ridiculous shitstorm I doubt another company will risk hiring her.
Social media may indeed be a quagmire of scum and villainy, but it isn't the technology that's at fault. Its the angry egotistical jackhole that resides behind our own eyes that's to blame.
She will be employed again soon. I'm sure Bioware will snatch her up.
Maybe she can write some stuff for Mass Effect: Androgyna
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Talk about clusterfook totally blown out of proportion for no reason at all.
It's
not like the "dude" suggested anything outrageous.He simply pointed out
the obvious that the story and characters would be more involving if
the players could make choices.Isn't this how the first half of the
personal story in the vanilla game is set up anyway?And who wouldn't like that for their MMO?It's a major selling point.
Of
course a player might not know of the limitations that time and money
impose on the development of a game or how hard it is to implement a
feature like this in the context of a MMO where content is meant to be
played by thousands of co existing players,and why should they?
Why all the drama and devs attacking their customers,this is childish behaviour.
Say "ty for your input" and move on dear devs.
Instead
a simple interaction that should have ended then and there went on to
escalate in a full on pissing contest,the game being discussed for the wrong reason and 2 people losing their jobs.
She will be employed again soon. I'm sure Bioware will snatch her up.
Maybe she can write some stuff for Mass Effect: Androgyna
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
and here is proof of blatant sexism from the two quotes, proving my point its because the developer in question who got fired is a female. Why include bioware and mass effect?
Why not say EA can hire her or Bethesda or another company?
Because obviously Bioware design their games and run their company that is neutral for all genders and religions. Their games are amazing, but I often see hate toward Bioware due to them hiring females and people who are gay/lesbian/bisexual.
To anyone who knows this, its obvious these two quotes are actually made in a way to be sexist.
Which again goes back to my posts above that a large group of people are happy that this person got fired because she is a female.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Comments
Also, it's PR move to use plurals, when they really are only talking about themselves, it adds a depth to say things like "We" to really mean "Myself and the Company" to say "Our fans" it means the Company's Fans, not that they are speaking for anyone else in the company other then themselves.
Now, with that said, this more then cements that this is their PR Twitter, and this is them trying to put out a fire. They might not even have a personal twitter, and stay off Social Media in their down time.. which.. truth be told, is not a bad idea.
On a personal note, I'm very tired of seeing modern day feminists play the victim card when it comes to stuff like this. She received very gentle criticism/disagreement and she responded with, "I'm a woman. Look at what I have to deal with."
I'd hate to see how this woman responds when she's up against some real adversity.
My gamer profile is public, but Unless you know where "At that fucking taco Shop" is, you would never find my place of employment.. especially given I do not work at a taco shop.
- I will never get the 45 minutes it took to read this thread back.
Is it even possible to put enough *sighs* on the end of a thread?Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
that being said, i believe every one has right to express their opinion without fear specially on twitter , i am defender of freedom of speech, if you do not like it just put that person on block, but sacking her because she said something you do not like on twitter is stupid and over reacting and complete dictatorship from anet, this will have bad reputation for anet inside game industry because good developers wont work for such dictator company.
i hope this day comes soon. Game makers don't need to waste time talking to gamers directly. We all know it always goes wrong when that happens, no matter who is right or wrong. Devs and users aren't friends. They make games, and we buy them. That's as far as our business go with them. No need to try and strike conversations on social media.
EDIT: from the other posts i read, that person got triggered easily. It you know you get triggered easily, just avoid social media interactions with strangers. That was her only mistake. You never know when the internet is trying to trigger you. Same goes to the user responding to her, if you either get offended easily or enjoy triggering people, then dont't complain when others talk down on you.
A lot of these people also love to cause problems in social media to pull attention to their social media, by triggering devs publicly. Many of them aren't involved in game development.
Devs are normal people just like all of us. It's simply human nature that some people get triggered easier than others. If these 2 writers got fired for breaking ANET terms then sure, they should have known better. But that doesn't mean the people on reddit/twitter who triggered them are little angels, they caused all of this.
Guess NCsoft showed they tolerate sexism in the industry by then firing her when all she did was defend herself against a sexist. And then another co-worker defended her, and got fired too. No wonder I avoid any NCsoft game.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
For example is Kanye West (using him cause he was big on the news recently as a colored person), whether one likes him or not, if he is on a bus and the person (even if they dislike him) decide not to get on that bus with him, that is a racist act.
Which goes back to this story. Why is barely anything focused on the guy being fired? Only a FEMALE? The male pretty much agreed with the female, so he pretty much made the same statement as she did. But no one cares cause "oh its a guy, its okay, lets focus on the female only". That is sexist, even if its a subconscious act.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Maybe she can write some stuff for Mass Effect: Androgyna
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Why not say EA can hire her or Bethesda or another company?
Because obviously Bioware design their games and run their company that is neutral for all genders and religions. Their games are amazing, but I often see hate toward Bioware due to them hiring females and people who are gay/lesbian/bisexual.
To anyone who knows this, its obvious these two quotes are actually made in a way to be sexist.
Which again goes back to my posts above that a large group of people are happy that this person got fired because she is a female.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul