the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
They can be, but was the Ford model T, art or perfunctory utility design?
I find one of Clackson's quotes particularly interesting though:
"For something to be art, it has to have no purpose other than itself, no function".
So what is a video game? It's basically useless. Just like movies, music, paintings, etc... no other function that itself. To entertain. To be seen and experienced for itself. Like that Alfa Romeo.
But a video game does have a purpose and a function. It's purpose and function is to make money.
It's a mass produced product designed to generate revenue.
Well, so are cars... but also paintings, movies, music... what's the difference?
The Mona Lisa is a piece of art. It hangs in the Louvre
Copy #100,000,001of the Mona Lisa is not art. Copy #100,000,001 is a mass produced consumer product that you can buy for $1.99 at your local dollar store.
They can be, but was the Ford model T, art or perfunctory utility design?
I find one of Clackson's quotes particularly interesting though:
"For something to be art, it has to have no purpose other than itself, no function".
So what is a video game? It's basically useless. Just like movies, music, paintings, etc... no other function that itself. To entertain. To be seen and experienced for itself. Like that Alfa Romeo.
Art can have function, and part of my function is to shoot video game bad guys.
Am I Art????!!!!
...sorry just channelling some of the ridiculous pretensions modern art can have.
A piece of art I don't know.
A piece of work? Most definitely!
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
My car costed me 10500€ a few years ago (a really cheap investment back then), it's definitely a rare model (only 512 made worldwide with that 3.2 V6 engine), so it's art ? I call bullshit.
They can be, but was the Ford model T, art or perfunctory utility design?
I find one of Clackson's quotes particularly interesting though:
"For something to be art, it has to have no purpose other than itself, no function".
So what is a video game? It's basically useless. Just like movies, music, paintings, etc... no other function that itself. To entertain. To be seen and experienced for itself. Like that Alfa Romeo.
But a video game does have a purpose and a function. It's purpose and function is to make money.
It's a mass produced product designed to generate revenue.
Well, so are cars... but also paintings, movies, music... what's the difference?
The Mona Lisa is a piece of art. It hangs in the Louvre
Copy #100,000,001of the Mona Lisa is not art. Copy #100,000,001 is a mass produced consumer product that you can buy for $1.99 at your local dollar store.
So art = rare ?
My car costed me 10500€ a few years ago (a really cheap investment back then), it's definitely a rare model (only 512 made worldwide with that 3.2 V6 engine), so it's art ? I call bullshit.
To me, art is something which purpose is to give you emotions. Not because it's rare. Because when you drive it, you feel something more than just driving mommie's truck.
And yes, some story lines, some vistas, some places, some events in virtual worlds can also give you that kind of emotions. When you realize when kind of precision and amount of work went into designing those games you play. When you stop your "grind" for a moment in awe in front of that virtual sunrise. That, to me, is art.
When your heart misses a beat. That perfect moment.
Do you have any idea or inkling of the amount of work and precision that go into designing and producing a car? Do you have any kind of idea what goes into the tooling, how difficult it is to form many shapes in metal wrinkle free or to create seamless joints like you see in many of today's cars.
Manufacturing is an Art and one that most people take completely for granted.
Rare has nothing to do with it. The original is Art, the copy made by a machine is not.
As I said earlier video games contain art, but the the game as a whole is pure 100% consumer product. Some people get emotional over a video game, some people get emotional over a new circular saw which makes neither a work of art.
It reminds be the old geezers who didn't want comics to be labeled as art, and who only consider classical music as "true" art too...
I say f*ck them.
Anyone saying that the people designing the landscapes, creatures, characters and ambiances of the quality MMORPGs, and also animating them, aren't top notch visual artists can't be taken seriously.
That's why I said video games have art in them, but are not art, as I see them. And again, no one is wrong here. Art is in the eye of the beholder. If you (or anyone) think that games are art, they are. For you. Do we all have to agree to be "taken seriously?" (elitism?)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It reminds be the old geezers who didn't want comics to be labeled as art, and who only consider classical music as "true" art too...
I say f*ck them.
Anyone saying that the people designing the landscapes, creatures, characters and ambiances of the quality MMORPGs, and also animating them, aren't top notch visual artists can't be taken seriously.
That's why I said video games have art in them, but are not art, as I see them. And again, no one is wrong here. Art is in the eye of the beholder. If you (or anyone) think that games are art, they are. For you. Do we all have to agree to be "taken seriously?" (elitism?)
The thing is,
IMO If you say that video games have art in them, but are not art, It would be the same as saying that a Van Gogh painting is just a canvas that has art on it, but it is not art.
Just like a painting, a video game is the canvas where artists, designers, animators, sound producers and programmers put their work on.
Man, the English language has become such a heap of garbage. Native English speaker, but it's so true. I keep recalling a phrase (incorrectly) from a recent SF movie "conciseness of words". We need that. I don't' know how we can have a conversation about whether games are art when those 2 words don't have very clear definitions at all. Do you mean is soccer a craft? Or Is Doom a painting?
Oooh ooh! Let's have a conversation about the difference between stuff and things next!
It reminds be the old geezers who didn't want comics to be labeled as art, and who only consider classical music as "true" art too...
I say f*ck them.
Anyone saying that the people designing the landscapes, creatures, characters and ambiances of the quality MMORPGs, and also animating them, aren't top notch visual artists can't be taken seriously.
That's why I said video games have art in them, but are not art, as I see them. And again, no one is wrong here. Art is in the eye of the beholder. If you (or anyone) think that games are art, they are. For you. Do we all have to agree to be "taken seriously?" (elitism?)
The thing is,
IMO If you say that video games have art in them, but are not art, It would be the same as saying that a Van Gogh painting is just a canvas that has art on it, but it is not art.
Just like a painting, a video game is the canvas where artists, designers, animators, sound producers and programmers put their work on.
My thoughts.
My house has art in it. Is it art? My PC has art in it. Is it art? My dog ate my son's picture. Is he art?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Some posters have been having fun with modern art pretentiousness (not me, as if I ever would!) My basic problem with the art elite is that they turn "I think therefore I am" into "I think therefore I am Art". It does take more than an idea to be an artist, you have to be able to create, to make something...and I am not talking about that unmade bed Tracey Emin.
Some of this reminds me of a hidden cam show a long while ago.
They let chimps in a zoo splatter paint all over canvasses, then rented an art gallery and opened an exhibition of "The work of modern african artists". Then they went in as a news camera team and interviewed all the art lovers.
The art elitists ofcourse all went full in "I can clearly see the struggle for freedom from financial opression in this image, look at how it symbolizes breaking free from the chains!" and such. Pretty hilarious and quite eye opening.
It reminds be the old geezers who didn't want comics to be labeled as art, and who only consider classical music as "true" art too...
I say f*ck them.
Anyone saying that the people designing the landscapes, creatures, characters and ambiances of the quality MMORPGs, and also animating them, aren't top notch visual artists can't be taken seriously.
That's why I said video games have art in them, but are not art, as I see them. And again, no one is wrong here. Art is in the eye of the beholder. If you (or anyone) think that games are art, they are. For you. Do we all have to agree to be "taken seriously?" (elitism?)
The thing is,
IMO If you say that video games have art in them, but are not art, It would be the same as saying that a Van Gogh painting is just a canvas that has art on it, but it is not art.
Just like a painting, a video game is the canvas where artists, designers, animators, sound producers and programmers put their work on.
My thoughts.
My house has art in it. Is it art? My PC has art in it. Is it art? My dog ate my son's picture. Is he art?
That could be the other side of the coin, but there is a difference. You don't need art in your house or PC to be functional and to serve its purpose.
Your dog may not be art, but it will probably leave a colorful masterpiece on the ground.
Perhaps my question could be phrased better. Because right now I think I'm stuck in the trap of defining art, which one can argue that everything is art.
Maybe a more meaningful question would be whether do you consider games as art and if not why?
If you think all Art is Art then you do not have perferences, your own taste or your own flavor. That is what makes art, literature, music so incredible - there is something for everyone but not everyone will love everything.
Even a house can be art.
In regards to games. It's pretty much a non-question to ask if something is art that has artists working on it.
They can be, but was the Ford model T, art or perfunctory utility design?
I find one of Clackson's quotes particularly interesting though:
"For something to be art, it has to have no purpose other than itself, no function".
So what is a video game? It's basically useless. Just like movies, music, paintings, etc... no other function that itself. To entertain. To be seen and experienced for itself. Like that Alfa Romeo.
But a video game does have a purpose and a function. It's purpose and function is to make money.
It's a mass produced product designed to generate revenue.
Well, so are cars... but also paintings, movies, music... what's the difference?
The Mona Lisa is a piece of art. It hangs in the Louvre
Copy #100,000,001of the Mona Lisa is not art. Copy #100,000,001 is a mass produced consumer product that you can buy for $1.99 at your local dollar store.
So art = rare ?
My car costed me 10500€ a few years ago (a really cheap investment back then), it's definitely a rare model (only 512 made worldwide with that 3.2 V6 engine), so it's art ? I call bullshit.
To me, art is something which purpose is to give you emotions. Not because it's rare. Because when you drive it, you feel something more than just driving mommie's truck.
And yes, some story lines, some vistas, some places, some events in virtual worlds can also give you that kind of emotions. When you realize when kind of precision and amount of work went into designing those games you play. When you stop your "grind" for a moment in awe in front of that virtual sunrise. That, to me, is art.
When your heart misses a beat. That perfect moment.
Do you have any idea or inkling of the amount of work and precision that go into designing and producing a car? Do you have any kind of idea what goes into the tooling, how difficult it is to form many shapes in metal wrinkle free or to create seamless joints like you see in many of today's cars.
Manufacturing is an Art and one that most people take completely for granted.
Rare has nothing to do with it. The original is Art, the copy made by a machine is not.
As I said earlier video games contain art, but the the game as a whole is pure 100% consumer product. Some people get emotional over a video game, some people get emotional over a new circular saw which makes neither a work of art.
I know the amount of work and precision that goes into designing and producing a car. I thought that was obvious from my posts...
But do YOU know the amount of work, patience and precision that goes into designing and creating a video game nowadays ? Specially a MMORPG ?
Yes, I'd say I have a very good idea and nowhere am I belittling what goes into making a video game.
I have no issue in the Art of making a video game. But the end product is just like an automobile or a toaster for that matter.
It's a consumer product, it's consumed and then you can cherish the memory of it.
well like other have tried to point out the more you shift the definition of what art encompasses the more people will argue what is art.
mit as well say humans by nature are art, we evolve into many things with time, some beautiful some cruel and all can be admired, so are all humans art? or just a still image or a object that others worship as art that you feel has worth.
to me i care little, i enjoy and admire what i like. label things art as you must for you to give them value, to me that value exist anyways. even if the art world say it worthless and not art.
Some posters have been having fun with modern art pretentiousness (not me, as if I ever would!) My basic problem with the art elite is that they turn "I think therefore I am" into "I think therefore I am Art". It does take more than an idea to be an artist, you have to be able to create, to make something...and I am not talking about that unmade bed Tracey Emin.
But that's just the whole point, there are people who buy into that and there is quite a bit of that in the "Art World."
In the end, as we all realize, art is subjective. The artist can ask the audience to consider the work and the audience can either accept it or refuse it.
This is how it should be. If we didn't have artists, musicians, writers pushing the envelope then we wouldn't have the actual great work that we have today.
It's very easy to say that "Art (or whatever the creation is, music, literature, etc) should be x, y and z but If that was a hard and fast rule we wouldn't have many of the things we take for granted today such as cubism, or rock music or science fiction novels or "whatever."
But again, solely subjective and if one person doesn't like something another does. And that's as it should be.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Perhaps my question could be phrased better. Because right now I think I'm stuck in the trap of defining art, which one can argue that everything is art.
Maybe a more meaningful question would be whether do you consider games as art and if not why?
If you think all Art is Art then you do not have perferences, your own taste or your own flavor. That is what makes art, literature, music so incredible - there is something for everyone but not everyone will love everything.
Even a house can be art.
In regards to games. It's pretty much a non-question to ask if something is art that has artists working on it.
Do "just artists" work on video games? Do the programmers, who actually make the game work not count?
You do realize that art on a computer is just a series of ones and zeroes, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Some posters have been having fun with modern art pretentiousness (not me, as if I ever would!) My basic problem with the art elite is that they turn "I think therefore I am" into "I think therefore I am Art". It does take more than an idea to be an artist, you have to be able to create, to make something...and I am not talking about that unmade bed Tracey Emin.
But that's just the whole point, there are people who buy into that and there is quite a bit of that in the "Art World."
In the end, as we all realize, art is subjective. The artist can ask the audience to consider the work and the audience can either accept it or refuse it.
This is how it should be. If we didn't have artists, musicians, writers pushing the envelope then we wouldn't have the actual great work that we have today.
It's very easy to say that "Art (or whatever the creation is, music, literature, etc) should be x, y and z but If that was a hard and fast rule we wouldn't have many of the things we take for granted today such as cubism, or rock music or science fiction novels or "whatever."
But again, solely subjective and if one person doesn't like something another does. And that's as it should be.
Sovrath, I am not saying art should be this or that, I have had a laugh with some things posted as art on here, but if others want to think they are art that's fine with me. I will question it, but if you like something that's up to you.
My main issue is that modern art is holding the rest of art hostage. Who is to say we can not have another pre-Raphaelite painter born today who can make us as astonished with their work as William Hunt? Painting and sculpture more than any other medium are held hostage by an art elite that only looks to modern art as being worthy.
You gave a musical example, Threnody to The Victims of Hiroshima. Music is not being stifled like painting and sculpture are. We have new classical composers, new advent-garde, jazz thrives, pop makes millions. It is not the raison d'etre of Mordern Art which is my main concern, it is the way certain mediums are a slave to its principles. Music is an art in "flux" if you will, old an new styles thrivng together. Painting and sculpting are "static" held in the thrall of modern art with everything that has gone before seen as lesser. Now you I imagine see modern art as evolving, but all I see it evolving into is more modern art, hence it is static to me.
But yes, I do question the idea that thinking is art, which lies at the heart of modern art. You must see how easily that leads us down the path of the Emperors clothes. As an exercise in thought it can be quite good but it has sold its audience on the idea their own thoughts are more important than the creation of amazing art. That to me is the greatest con the art world has ever seen.
Comments
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Copy #100,000,001of the Mona Lisa is not art. Copy #100,000,001 is a mass produced consumer product that you can buy for $1.99 at your local dollar store.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
A piece of work? Most definitely!
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Manufacturing is an Art and one that most people take completely for granted.
Rare has nothing to do with it. The original is Art, the copy made by a machine is not.
As I said earlier video games contain art, but the the game as a whole is pure 100% consumer product. Some people get emotional over a video game, some people get emotional over a new circular saw which makes neither a work of art.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Oooh ooh! Let's have a conversation about the difference between stuff and things next!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They let chimps in a zoo splatter paint all over canvasses, then rented an art gallery and opened an exhibition of "The work of modern african artists".
Then they went in as a news camera team and interviewed all the art lovers.
The art elitists ofcourse all went full in "I can clearly see the struggle for freedom from financial opression in this image, look at how it symbolizes breaking free from the chains!" and such. Pretty hilarious and quite eye opening.
Aloha Mr Hand !
I think MMO's are like a Gallery, the art is all inside.
Even a house can be art.
In regards to games. It's pretty much a non-question to ask if something is art that has artists working on it.
I have no issue in the Art of making a video game. But the end product is just like an automobile or a toaster for that matter.
It's a consumer product, it's consumed and then you can cherish the memory of it.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
mit as well say humans by nature are art, we evolve into many things with time, some beautiful some cruel and all can be admired, so are all humans art? or just a still image or a object that others worship as art that you feel has worth.
to me i care little, i enjoy and admire what i like. label things art as you must for you to give them value, to me that value exist anyways. even if the art world say it worthless and not art.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
You do realize that art on a computer is just a series of ones and zeroes, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My main issue is that modern art is holding the rest of art hostage. Who is to say we can not have another pre-Raphaelite painter born today who can make us as astonished with their work as William Hunt? Painting and sculpture more than any other medium are held hostage by an art elite that only looks to modern art as being worthy.
You gave a musical example, Threnody to The Victims of Hiroshima. Music is not being stifled like painting and sculpture are. We have new classical composers, new advent-garde, jazz thrives, pop makes millions. It is not the raison d'etre of Mordern Art which is my main concern, it is the way certain mediums are a slave to its principles. Music is an art in "flux" if you will, old an new styles thrivng together. Painting and sculpting are "static" held in the thrall of modern art with everything that has gone before seen as lesser. Now you I imagine see modern art as evolving, but all I see it evolving into is more modern art, hence it is static to me.
But yes, I do question the idea that thinking is art, which lies at the heart of modern art. You must see how easily that leads us down the path of the Emperors clothes. As an exercise in thought it can be quite good but it has sold its audience on the idea their own thoughts are more important than the creation of amazing art. That to me is the greatest con the art world has ever seen.