the only prob i see here, is the engine being used. on the other hand, they have enough funding to build their own network system, and i hope they will
best thing i saw of CU was the 300 man battle MJ was streaming some weeks ago, looked fluid, because they took their time and build and own network system
let's hope MJ&co ain't the only ones to approach from that angle
uh and to all the guys comparing this game to lobby based games ... i don't think you understood it
SC is not about MP large scale, when you look at CU you can notice that to achieve the large scale PvP they have to do more superficial takes on visuals and such so it can cope with it.
The real "bottleneck" of large-scale PvP on MMO's is not what they can do with server technology, is what clients will be capable to render in a performing matter, and on SC with those detailed visuals and basing a lot of stuff on physics simulation and so it will simply not cope with it.
So this is more about the completion and polishing up of the mechanics as FPS, Dogfighting, Boarding, etc... that is overall the type of gameplay that would happen in SC in PvPvE.
Lots of hate for developers of the past who created hugely popular games that changed the industry landscape forever and then faded away into obscurity. Isn't that what people do? Make their mark and then let the next generation take over? We may argue about Jordan or Lebron, but we don't call Jordan "washed up" when we do. Why do we expect creatives to carry on right up to the day they die and never miss the mark?
Not even remotely related to SC, I know, just my two cents.
If Jordan were still attempting to play in the NBA, I think everyone would call him washed up by now.
OK, so when will we be flying through that city and using that truck stop? Videos said for 3.0 so...
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
But just because it takes less time doesn't mean it's easier.
Making a realistic looking location with procedural generation is actually harder than hand crafting it... unless you don't mind constant visible repetition.. but that's not what we're talking about.
Another example... do you think building Stellar Forge to create 400 billion realistic star systems (that is so accurate it even predicted an undiscovered real system) is easier to do than building a few hand-crafted Star Citizen systems?.. just because it was done in less time?
I guess Braben needs to take lessons from SC's art department then...
A realistic one with procedural generation sure it is hard, but to create the technology not to create the location, the thing about PG is once the technology can do it, you can just generate locations easily with the same methods but different rulesets and assets. So if you want let's just say hard at first, then it's easier.
Also tbh I think Braben should take some lessons from SC in terms of how SC creates artist-driven cities and landing zones and planets that are lore-driven and then uses PG to complement them, if you ask me that's the best solution to get benefits from both methods 1) scale without unreasonably overwhelming the art department 2) the quality that can be achieved by hand-crafting locations.
Judging from how slow 500 people are building star systems (Have they actually completed a single one?)... no.. Braben needs no lessons on the matter.
He wanted a realistic copy of 400bil systems and he did it in the best way possible. There's plenty of lore and more being added with each update and hand-crafted pieces are added here and there. There was absolutely no possibility of hand-crafting 400bil systems or the thousands of stations ED has. There's enough variety to the stations, (7-8 different types with lots of variations) but of course it can always use more. I'm sure we'll see more variations as development continues. Right now the stations have character and look awesome and there's shitloads of them.
I remember SC fans saying how bullshit PG is and how SC will hand-craft everything and will be better than everything else. Then CIG announced they're going to use PG to build planets and suddenly PG is awesome but only in the way CIG uses it
Judging from how slow 500 people are building star systems (Have they actually completed a single one?)... no.. Braben needs no lessons on the matter.
I remember SC fans saying how bullshit PG is and how SC will hand-craft everything and will be better than everything else. Then CIG announced they're going to use PG to build planets and suddenly PG is awesome but only in the way CIG uses it
500 are not building solar systems, SC is currently focusing on finishing up tech to allow a full solar system to take place (OCS) and iterating upon existing mechanics, as well introducing new professions to start fleshing out the economy. So we're not yet on the stage where there'll be more resources assigned specifically for content creation.
I still stand by not using PG the way ED does, SC has the best of both worlds there, it hand-crafts it's game-world AND uses PG to provide the scale it needs. If they were to rely fully on PG we wouldn't have gotten have landing zones with the quality of Levski, Area 51 and upcoming Lorville.
Judging from how slow 500 people are building star systems (Have they actually completed a single one?)... no.. Braben needs no lessons on the matter.
He wanted a realistic copy of 400bil systems and he did it in the best way possible. There's plenty of lore and more being added with each update and hand-crafted pieces are added here and there. There was absolutely no possibility of hand-crafting 400bil systems or the thousands of stations ED has. There's enough variety to the stations, (7-8 different types with lots of variations) but of course it can always use more. I'm sure we'll see more variations as development continues. Right now the stations have character and look awesome and there's shitloads of them.
When I think of the engineer bases, the guardian ruins, the guardian structures, alien ruins etc I think Frontier have a pretty decent grasp on artist driven additions to the game.
Another thing I like about the detail of the PG system in Elite is that you can predict where certain features will be depending on the composition of the planet, the star it orbits, its distance from the star etc, lava fumeroles on volcanic planets as an example. It makes the randomness of what people consider "normal" PG look very basic.
I remember SC fans saying how bullshit PG is and how SC will hand-craft everything and will be better than everything else. Then CIG announced they're going to use PG to build planets and suddenly PG is awesome but only in the way CIG uses it
Judging from how slow 500 people are building star systems (Have they actually completed a single one?)... no.. Braben needs no lessons on the matter.
I remember SC fans saying how bullshit PG is and how SC will hand-craft everything and will be better than everything else. Then CIG announced they're going to use PG to build planets and suddenly PG is awesome but only in the way CIG uses it
500 are not building solar systems, SC is currently focusing on finishing up tech to allow a full solar system to take place (OCS) and iterating upon existing mechanics, as well introducing new professions to start fleshing out the economy. So we're not yet on the stage where there'll be more resources assigned specifically for content creation.
I still stand by not using PG the way ED does, SC has the best of both worlds there, it hand-crafts it's game-world AND uses PG to provide the scale it needs. If they were to rely fully on PG we wouldn't have gotten have landing zones with the quality of Levski, Area 51 and upcoming Lorville.
It's still 7 years of development and not a single system completed. As we agreed, adding hand-crafted content will need time... are we looking for a few decades until a bunch of systems will be completed or will they need to rely more on the dreaded PG to actually populate their game with locations?
The quality of Levski/Area 51 is vastly overrated. Stations in ED are absolutely beautiful with Coriolis stations being my absolute favourite. I will never be tired of watching them dance.
sgel said: It's still 7 years of development and not a single system completed.
As we agreed, adding hand-crafted content will need time... are we looking for a few decades until a bunch of systems will be completed or will they need to rely more on the dreaded PG to actually populate their game with locations?
The quality of Levski/Area 51 is vastly overrated. Stations in ED are absolutely beautiful with Coriolis stations being my absolute favourite. I will never be tired of watching them dance.
Sure they are, because those things are just decoration, not actual stations to play on-foot on, it will always be based on endless repetition, hence why to me ED just has the "shiny" effect the first times you see a type of station, then you get used to not see anything actually new, until the devs themselves implement new types.
This is where SC beats on variety and uniqueness of each location, Levski and Arccorp and Lorville and entirely different environments even tho falling on similar industrial types, with Crusader and Microtech on the mix this single solar system has quite the variety of zones to explore by itself; Arccorp will not be replicated endlessly through the universe the next city planet they do will have to be its own theme, like Terra with its giant tower:
Content creation will speed up once it is the focus, only seeing the monthly reports of all the studios it is clear they are mostly working on mechanics and game-systems, new and improving existing ones, so we can't account their speed on the creation of content until that becomes the focus.
Once they finish refactoring the pipelines, backers will be showered with unique content, just like it was supposed to already happen last year, and the year before that, and the year before that one too, etc.
sgel said: It's still 7 years of development and not a single system completed.
As we agreed, adding hand-crafted content will need time... are we looking for a few decades until a bunch of systems will be completed or will they need to rely more on the dreaded PG to actually populate their game with locations?
The quality of Levski/Area 51 is vastly overrated. Stations in ED are absolutely beautiful with Coriolis stations being my absolute favourite. I will never be tired of watching them dance.
Sure they are, because those things are just decoration, not actual stations to play on-foot on, it will always be based on endless repetition, hence why to me ED just has the "shiny" effect the first times you see a type of station, then you get used to not see anything actually new, until the devs themselves implement new types.
This is where SC beats on variety and uniqueness of each location, Levski and Arccorp and Lorville and entirely different environments even tho falling on similar industrial types, with Crusader and Microtech on the mix this single solar system has quite the variety of zones to explore by itself; Arccorp will not be replicated endlessly through the universe the next city planet they do will have to be its own theme, like Terra with its giant tower:
Did you really just blame a game that doesn't have on-foot gameplay that the stations it has can't be used on-foot?
I guess you also must be tired of seeing the same 3-4 stations SC has time and time again.
Lol focusing on quantity instead of depth is the bane of fun....
That's why people dislike PG based universes versus handcrafted ones.
Sure you can do millions of combinations of assets, space stations whatever but it's what you can do with them that matters.
If there's no depth in the variation and meaningful and engaging gameplay having 1, 2, 3 or 3000000000 it's all the same and gets boring pretty quick. The mile wide inch deep story.
Just look at NMS, it was wide from the beginning, just over promised and lacked engaging activities besides the multiplayer fiasco, once it added them it became more appealing to players and it's very popular now.
Elite released with numbers but very little variation in gameplay, Horizons added a bit but not enough. 4 Years later their dream features are still just that:
Dreams while Star Citizen and NMS already provide them in their core gameplay lol
That's why it's not a very engaging game and gets tedious to do just simple stuff because of how convoluted everything is.
If there's no foundation to build it will not go far, making the sandbox huge and having no way to put fun sand there is terrible on the long run.
Star Citizen is doing the right thing by taking time and adding depth to their game systems, it's first iteration of mining is already more engaging than anything NMS or ED have related to mining.
Same with multicrew engagement, EVA is rich and possible everywhere, we're at 50 players per instance and later going to 100, 200 and then thousands in a single shared online universe!
It will take it's time sure, Squadron 42 will come out even before all of that is finished and pave the way this huge living universe that everyone will want to at least try once!
Did you really just blame a game that doesn't have on-foot gameplay that the stations it has can't be used on-foot?
I guess you also must be tired of seeing the same 3-4 stations SC has time and time again.
Yeah because in terms of the generation they are just to be visually appealing from your ship, instead of being fully rendered with playable interiors.
SC itself with the truckstops is going to implement procedural generation of interiors, and even that we can see it's a constant push back because they are trying to get proper variety and believability to the stations, instead of being just the same thing with a different built it layout, in there SC enters the same problem of ED, trying to add one unique vibe to every station.
Did you really just blame a game that doesn't have on-foot gameplay that the stations it has can't be used on-foot?
I guess you also must be tired of seeing the same 3-4 stations SC has time and time again.
Yeah because in terms of the generation they are just to be visually appealing from your ship, instead of being fully rendered with playable interiors.
SC itself with the truckstops is going to implement procedural generation of interiors, and even that we can see it's a constant push back because they are trying to get proper variety and believability to the stations, instead of being just the same thing with a different built it layout, in there SC enters the same problem of ED, trying to add one unique vibe to every station.
Well you don't need "unique" vibe for every single station, most gas stops are alike IRL.
Did you really just blame a game that doesn't have on-foot gameplay that the stations it has can't be used on-foot?
I guess you also must be tired of seeing the same 3-4 stations SC has time and time again.
Yeah because in terms of the generation they are just to be visually appealing from your ship, instead of being fully rendered with playable interiors.
SC itself with the truckstops is going to implement procedural generation of interiors, and even that we can see it's a constant push back because they are trying to get proper variety and believability to the stations, instead of being just the same thing with a different built it layout, in there SC enters the same problem of ED, trying to add one unique vibe to every station.
Well you don't need "unique" vibe for every single station, most gas stops are alike IRL.
They talk about it in this ATV @ 12:30
I mean sure the truckstops are pretty much that service station you visit while in the highway that has basic services related to your trip.
But over that it's when we need the crafted stations that are actually meant as places to explore that have more to them, but if the concept of Port Ollisar will end up going away, I'm not sure what will be the focus of crafted stations in the game because the truckstop is getting a lot of functionality (shopping, repair, refuel, hangars) on its own.
I don't think the NMS developers are super-devs, they've done something smart though. They built the entire puzzle, all the pieces. It severely lacked in detail but the picture was clear, all systems fitted. They then started to add more gameplay mechanics and a graphical overhaul but what gets mentoined less is that they have been tweaking their algorithms too to create more divers and outspoken planets, more characters, more diversity, they've started to add detail to the puzzle.
NMS got all the crap from their supporters at the start, I won't be surprised if SC gets it at the end. SC also asks for a lot of faith, the promise of the best puzzle ever, the biggest one. It isn't there yet, we have pieces, with lots of potential.
That's because when they released they already had the game finished, even if half-broken, easy to forget it wasn't one early access game you were playing through it's alpha. But my point was relevant to how it is easier for devs to use this sort of technology because once you do, you can just pump in all content you want, even though that will be based on endless repetition.
Also SC already gets crap all the time, have you seen this forum? It's 99% negativity, as many defend SC will be this guaranteed failure or it's a scam or will never release, etc... That once it does, SC is likely to do a comeback, mostly a matter of time tbh.
If there's no depth in the variation and meaningful and engaging gameplay having 1, 2, 3 or 3000000000 it's all the same and gets boring pretty quick. The mile wide inch deep story.
Just look at NMS, it was wide from the beginning, just over promised and lacked engaging activities besides the multiplayer fiasco, once it added them it became more appealing to players and it's very popular now.
That's why it's not a very engaging game and gets tedious to do just simple stuff because of how convoluted everything is.
If there's no foundation to build it will not go far, making the sandbox huge and having no way to put fun sand there is terrible on the long run.
Star Citizen is doing the right thing by taking time and adding depth to their game systems, it's first iteration of mining is already more engaging than anything NMS or ED have related to mining.
Wow Here's Babuinix with his false news/alternative facts crap. Comparing honeymoon patch numbers to non-honeymoon patch numbers, comparing a highly popular survival type genre to much more a niche space sim genre.
If you look at SteamDB info for the year you can see how poorly NMS was doing, 1000-1200 players per week and that's for 99% of the time since release 2 years ago. Watch those honeymoon numbers drop considerably over the next few weeks.
Elite on the other hand maintains pretty consistent numbers of ~7000 players. Not forgetting that Steam only accounts for just over half of Elite's PC playerbase.
Show me the depth that Star Citizen is adding, single box basic fetch quests are not deep, pointing a laser at a rock with a golf swing mechanic is not deep, combat mechanics are not deep. Flight is not deep. So by all means, let's hear how they are taking their time and adding deep gameplay...
**snip ** It's what they have been doing in gaming more recently that's important.
Like ... AGAIN delivering hugely successful games recently ?
Shadowrun
Battletech
Wasteland
Bards Take
Descent
Planescape
etc.
Just to name a few.
Have fun
Probably wisely didn't bite off more than they could chew. Limited goals, limited expenditures. Also, did any of their previous work take their companies down through mismanagement?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
**snip ** It's what they have been doing in gaming more recently that's important.
Like ... AGAIN delivering hugely successful games recently ?
o.O What did Roberts have to do with any of the games you listed?
We were talking about veteran developers in general, not only Chris Roberts. Please scroll upthread.
And Chris Roberts - if it has escaped your attention so far - is currently developing ANOTHER game that is already hugely successful, despite not even having launched yet. It has generated almost 200 million dollar so far, world record in crowdfunding. That is generally called "hugely successful" were i come from. Your mileage may vary.
Have fun
I don't mistake marketing chops for game design skills.
And, I was mentioning specific designers with vainglorious projects that failed disastrously. Designers who sold their projects as the best new thing coming....and it didn't.
Also a little influenced by the Richard Garriott interview where he proclaimed himself, Roberts Molyneux and Will Wright as the 'true' great designers. Romero thrown in for equivalency. I do see similarities between those game designers, but it's not something that would get me to throw oodles of money at them now.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Comments
The real "bottleneck" of large-scale PvP on MMO's is not what they can do with server technology, is what clients will be capable to render in a performing matter, and on SC with those detailed visuals and basing a lot of stuff on physics simulation and so it will simply not cope with it.
So this is more about the completion and polishing up of the mechanics as FPS, Dogfighting, Boarding, etc... that is overall the type of gameplay that would happen in SC in PvPvE.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The first version of truckstops coming next update.
He wanted a realistic copy of 400bil systems and he did it in the best way possible.
There's plenty of lore and more being added with each update and hand-crafted pieces are added here and there.
There was absolutely no possibility of hand-crafting 400bil systems or the thousands of stations ED has. There's enough variety to the stations, (7-8 different types with lots of variations) but of course it can always use more. I'm sure we'll see more variations as development continues.
Right now the stations have character and look awesome and there's shitloads of them.
I remember SC fans saying how bullshit PG is and how SC will hand-craft everything and will be better than everything else. Then CIG announced they're going to use PG to build planets and suddenly PG is awesome but only in the way CIG uses it
..Cake..
I still stand by not using PG the way ED does, SC has the best of both worlds there, it hand-crafts it's game-world AND uses PG to provide the scale it needs. If they were to rely fully on PG we wouldn't have gotten have landing zones with the quality of Levski, Area 51 and upcoming Lorville.
Another thing I like about the detail of the PG system in Elite is that you can predict where certain features will be depending on the composition of the planet, the star it orbits, its distance from the star etc, lava fumeroles on volcanic planets as an example. It makes the randomness of what people consider "normal" PG look very basic.
Sounds like the fans suffer from NIH syndrome.
As we agreed, adding hand-crafted content will need time... are we looking for a few decades until a bunch of systems will be completed or will they need to rely more on the dreaded PG to actually populate their game with locations?
The quality of Levski/Area 51 is vastly overrated.
Stations in ED are absolutely beautiful with Coriolis stations being my absolute favourite.
I will never be tired of watching them dance.
..Cake..
This is where SC beats on variety and uniqueness of each location, Levski and Arccorp and Lorville and entirely different environments even tho falling on similar industrial types, with Crusader and Microtech on the mix this single solar system has quite the variety of zones to explore by itself; Arccorp will not be replicated endlessly through the universe the next city planet they do will have to be its own theme, like Terra with its giant tower:
Content creation will speed up once it is the focus, only seeing the monthly reports of all the studios it is clear they are mostly working on mechanics and game-systems, new and improving existing ones, so we can't account their speed on the creation of content until that becomes the focus.
I guess you also must be tired of seeing the same 3-4 stations SC has time and time again.
..Cake..
I am also pleasantly surprised that you actually managed to say a good word for a game that isn't Store Citizen.
"This project is really the biggest thing ever attempted in gaming if not software development."
..Cake..
SC itself with the truckstops is going to implement procedural generation of interiors, and even that we can see it's a constant push back because they are trying to get proper variety and believability to the stations, instead of being just the same thing with a different built it layout, in there SC enters the same problem of ED, trying to add one unique vibe to every station.
But over that it's when we need the crafted stations that are actually meant as places to explore that have more to them, but if the concept of Port Ollisar will end up going away, I'm not sure what will be the focus of crafted stations in the game because the truckstop is getting a lot of functionality (shopping, repair, refuel, hangars) on its own.
Also SC already gets crap all the time, have you seen this forum? It's 99% negativity, as many defend SC will be this guaranteed failure or it's a scam or will never release, etc... That once it does, SC is likely to do a comeback, mostly a matter of time tbh.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/"This project is really the biggest thing ever attempted in gaming if not software development."
..Cake..
Wow Here's Babuinix with his false news/alternative facts crap. Comparing honeymoon patch numbers to non-honeymoon patch numbers, comparing a highly popular survival type genre to much more a niche space sim genre.
If you look at SteamDB info for the year you can see how poorly NMS was doing, 1000-1200 players per week and that's for 99% of the time since release 2 years ago. Watch those honeymoon numbers drop considerably over the next few weeks.
Elite on the other hand maintains pretty consistent numbers of ~7000 players. Not forgetting that Steam only accounts for just over half of Elite's PC playerbase.
Show me the depth that Star Citizen is adding, single box basic fetch quests are not deep, pointing a laser at a rock with a golf swing mechanic is not deep, combat mechanics are not deep. Flight is not deep. So by all means, let's hear how they are taking their time and adding deep gameplay...
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
And, I was mentioning specific designers with vainglorious projects that failed disastrously. Designers who sold their projects as the best new thing coming....and it didn't.
Also a little influenced by the Richard Garriott interview where he proclaimed himself, Roberts Molyneux and Will Wright as the 'true' great designers. Romero thrown in for equivalency. I do see similarities between those game designers, but it's not something that would get me to throw oodles of money at them now.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.