Bethesda's Multiplayer vision for FO 76 - an interesting twist

Kyleran

Note: amended the title and this OP as later information (detailed in later posts) came to light changing my perspective on the PVP model.

Massively brought this video to my attention, where Bethesda shares their tongue in cheek views on "multiplayer" interaction.



What is notable is a comment about brushing up on your "non-verbal" communication. Perhaps we won't be able to chat with others in game?  Pluses and minuses I suppose. 

They include a closing vignette where an obvious player "gank squad" appears on the scene and destroys peaceful bystanders,  and then turn on each other.

It's pretty clear from the reveal at Quakecon this shouldn't be much of an issue.

They have confirmed the game has some looting, of "junk" items only but you can't drop weapons, armor or other valuables. 

MadFrenchie

Bethesda hasn't really given me any indication they're any more self-aware about their PvP game than any other dev team.  It's like the bandwagon projects, we all know they rarely if ever pay off, but devs just keep on and keep on and keep on and...

Ratero

I did a FO76 pre-order the moment I heard about it on June 11.  After watching more and more of these videos and listening to the Dev's talk about PvP in the game I just decided as much as I wanted to give this a go it really is not worth it to me.  I've cancelled my pre-order and unless things change I doubt I will be playing this even though I love the FallOut games.

Kyleran

Well in this video they are either poking fun in their weird sort of Fallout way,  or mocking, can't be sure which.

Kyleran

OK, I should know better by now, but it appears quite a bit more info was shared at Quakecon regarding PVP, but this site's news article did a poor job summarizing the details. 

Here are a few IGN articles which provide some very enlightening info, such as flagged Murderers will not be able to see other players on the map but will be easily identifiable to others.   There's more as well, clearly Bethesda has given it more consideration than I first thought.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/08/11/fallout-76-pvp-detailed-aims-for-danger-without-griefing

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/08/14/7-things-we-learned-about-fallout-76-quakecon-2018

Once again I have to thank MassivelyOP for leading me to this info.

Its fortunate they appear to be more up to date than this site, getting a lot of my MMO news there lately.

Sovrath

Kyleran said:

OK, I should know better by now, but it appears quite a bit more info was shared at Quakecon regarding PVP, but this site's news article did a poor job summarizing the details. 

Here are a few IGN articles which provide some very enlightening info, such as flagged Murderers will not be able to see other players on the map but will be easily identifiable to others.   There's more as well, clearly Bethesda has given it more consideration than I first thought.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/08/11/fallout-76-pvp-detailed-aims-for-danger-without-griefing

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/08/14/7-things-we-learned-about-fallout-76-quakecon-2018

Well that's what I was thinking. Bethesda doesn't seem, to me, to be the type of studio to put out games that don't make tons of money.

Kyleran

Torval said:

Kyleran said:

OK, I should know better by now, but it appears quite a bit more info was shared at Quakecon regarding PVP, but this site's news article did a poor job summarizing the details. 

Here are a few IGN articles which provide some very enlightening info, such as flagged Murderers will not be able to see other players on the map but will be easily identifiable to others.   There's more as well, clearly Bethesda has given it more consideration than I first thought.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/08/11/fallout-76-pvp-detailed-aims-for-danger-without-griefing

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/08/14/7-things-we-learned-about-fallout-76-quakecon-2018

Once again I have to thank MassivelyOP for leading me to this info.

Its fortunate they appear to be more up to date than this site, getting a lot of my MMO news there lately.

IGN had the same QuakeCon info this site did. What exactly did you learn in those two articles that you didn't learn from the article you read here?

The only take away I got from both MMORPG and IGN are that PvP players can kill PvE players. You can go invis for specific players, so after they kill you for the first time. You can flag not to kill people but they can still kill you.

I believe most of these points were not covered in the MMORPG.com news article.

https://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/features.cfm?read=12940&game=1539&ismb=1

The relevant new info is bracketed in each.
 
1. If you’re attacked, choose to not engage in PvP, and still get killed by your attacker, then you will have the chance to seek revenge for a [reward of double the XP and caps.]

2. Those who continue to attack and eventually kill an unwilling player will immediately be labeled a "Wanted Murderer" and [will appear on the map as a red star.]

3. To add to the tension, those with a bounty on their head [will not be able to see any other players on the map.]

[4. PvP will not be enabled until players reach level 5]

[5. No rewards will be given to a player that murders another.]

[6. Whenever players die, they will only drop the Junk they’ve collected for crafting. All caps, weapons, armor, and other values will be preserved for the player, and it will be possible to respawn near the place where someone died to recover the dropped Junk.]

[7. However, there’s a good chance it will be scooped up by victorious players if you died during PvP.]

[8. While the risk of having your base destroyed by PvP nukes exists,] players won’t have to worry about saying goodbye to their settlement permanently.

[9. A Blueprint system in Fallout 76 will allow you to easily rebuild whatever settlement was destroyed in an attack.]

[10. Players will also have the ability to declare themselves as a “pacifist,” meaning their attacks won’t start PvP at all -- this is to prevent players jumping in front of someone's bullet to start a fight.]

11.  You can choose to “ignore” specific players too, which hides you [from each other] on the map

[12.  Additionally, weapon damage is normalized somewhat across PvP, making the gap between a knife and a minigun still significant, but not as one sided as it would be in the regular PvE balance.]

13.  You can then respawn at the closest fast travel point for [free, or a farther one at a small Cap cost] though [it will probably have been looted if you died in PvP. ]

Kyleran

I want you to know that was no easy task to extract all of that and compare between the three articles,  especially on my cell phone browser.

But, my wife had dragged me along to go shopping with her, so all good.

RemyVorender

It's like they don't know their target audience. At all. 

AlmostLancelot

Such a disappointment.

I have never been more excited than when they announced 76 would be online/multiplayer with PvP. However, after having seen what they intend to do in terms of PvP design, I doubt I will purchase the game at all.

If they are going to water it down so heavily just to cater to PvEers who are scared of player conflict then why even add it at all? The entire point of PvP is to add another element of risk and create unexpected, suspenseful and intense encounters among the playerbase. 

Were you hoping to form rivalries with opposing groups? Think again.

Spent all that time capturing a nuke silo to take out your enemies settlement? Nope. They can just rebuild an exact copy and effectively negate your actions entirely.

Setup an ambush on an opposing group? Yeah, I'm sure it will be very intimidating for them to watch as you plink away at them for minor damage while they ignore you. Oh, but you'll kill them eventually right? Did someone forget StimPaks exist? Good luck with that. 

Might as well just play Fallout 4 or any other Fallout title.

Arglebargle

RemyVorender said:

It's like they don't know their target audience. At all. 

Just like ESO, eh?

Dagon13

RemyVorender said:

It's like they don't know their target audience. At all. 

Or more likely, you don't know their target audience.  I can see how one might assume that they are targeting their typical crowd, but maybe they're trying to stretch their legs a bit.

Gruug

AlmostLancelot said:

Such a disappointment.

I have never been more excited than when they announced 76 would be online/multiplayer with PvP. However, after having seen what they intend to do in terms of PvP design, I doubt I will purchase the game at all.

If they are going to water it down so heavily just to cater to PvEers who are scared of player conflict then why even add it at all? The entire point of PvP is to add another element of risk and create unexpected, suspenseful and intense encounters among the playerbase. 

Were you hoping to form rivalries with opposing groups? Think again.

Spent all that time capturing a nuke silo to take out your enemies settlement? Nope. They can just rebuild an exact copy and effectively negate your actions entirely.

Setup an ambush on an opposing group? Yeah, I'm sure it will be very intimidating for them to watch as you plink away at them for minor damage while they ignore you. Oh, but you'll kill them eventually right? Did someone forget StimPaks exist? Good luck with that. 

Might as well just play Fallout 4 or any other Fallout title.

As one of those "PvEers" you mention, it is not fear of people like you but rather the fact that you think that you should be allowed to run amok without consequence. I am fine with people wishing to engage in PvP, just not at the expense of those that do not care for it. Why in the world can not both worlds exisit? Why is it that PvEers seem far more willing to get along with the PvPers but not vis versa? By get along, I mean we are willing to allow you your PvP but just are unwilling to be your willing targets. PvPers, go murder other PvPers. 

Lytec

I'm hoping fallout 76 is going to be like borderlands with some pvp areas

Kyleran

Torval said:

https://www.mmorpg.com/fallout-76/columns/five-takeaways-from-quakecon-about-pvp-1000012940

1. you can engage in PvP out there in the wasteland
2. you can ignore your opponent if you choose
3. PvP can be initiated by one side or the other, but you must choose to take part
4. first shots fired only do small damage to start up a fight
5. an option to completely ignore your aggressor
6. you will no longer see them on your map
7. their idea of a bounty system for murderers or player killers
8. Todd Howard explained that initial shots or attacks in PvP will do low damage to begin the fight.... <more to the quote>
   
9. Bounties - bounty comes out of the murderer’s money
10. There are more points. Read the article.
    

Garrett didn't get anything but he got a lot. I'm not sure why the huge Fuck You to the site is necessary. A civilized discussion in that thread pointing out what he missed is probably more appropriate.

Every point you listed was covered in the other articles,  but they (and really just one) also had the 13 other points I noted and those extra details significantly altered my viewpoint (and I think some others) on how this will work.

Together the 23 points paint a considerably different picture of how the PVP model will work.

You'll note in this thread some PVPers are now realizing the PVP is being watered down so much it might not be worth their time to play.

I came away from the MMORPG.com article with the impression Bethesda hadn't put much thought into PVP, or had intentionally left out key info as part of some malicious plan to mislead PVEer into buying the game. 

After getting a much better picture on how this works, I owe Bethesda a bit of an apology on both points and I don't feel they are misleading anyone, as long as the full story is known, which is the responsibilty of the writers reporting the details.

Sovrath

AlmostLancelot said:

Such a disappointment.

I have never been more excited than when they announced 76 would be online/multiplayer with PvP. However, after having seen what they intend to do in terms of PvP design, I doubt I will purchase the game at all.

If they are going to water it down so heavily just to cater to PvEers who are scared of player conflict then why even add it at all? The entire point of PvP is to add another element of risk and create unexpected, suspenseful and intense encounters among the playerbase. 

Having known die hard PvE players I can assure you that most are not "scared of player conflict" so much as they just don't have patience (or get any enjoyment) with the minority (but very in your face) players who are in the game not for "the game" but to mess with people. That's what they want to do "mess with people."

I absolutely love FFA pvp but over the years I find it's just not worth it, these people are pretty much creating a toxic environment.

If people want "unexpected, suspenseful and intense encounters among the player base" then they might want to dial down their issues and the desire to be caustic without any consequences and play "the game" as a game. Because otherwise you're going to see more and more pvp with barriers and conditions.

It's not the pve players who created this. It's the toxic pvp players.

Kyleran

As for the topic of slagging on this site and its news coverage, no apologies there.  

Over the past year or so I've discovered more and more if I want good information on MMOs and MMORPGs MassivelyOP is the superior news source.  

While they cover non-MMOs for sure,  they still have a far greater focus on the genres I favor and cover existing games much better as it seems they usually have one or more writers playing them.

Often they even visit an MMO together and do a story on it, which is something rarely seen here.

This site more often than not comes across as a place which repeats advertising copy sent to them. On several occasions when asked why an signicant event or release isn't covered in a particular game the reply has been, the devs didnt send us anything.

Yet somehow over on MassivelyOP, they'll have reported on it, even if only to direct the reader to another site such as IGN which is where this additional FO 76 Quakecon info is from.

In this example above, I first was reading the comments to their FO76 coverage and the respondents had a completely different viewpoint than I did about the PVP and I was puzzled as to why.

After reading the MassivelyOP article (which had little actual info) and the two IGN articles I realized I had been doing Bethesda a disservice,  and felt a bit betrayed at my previous ignorance from having an incomplete picture.

There's probably still more info out there I don't know, but I really don't have time to randomly search a dozen gaming sites trying to pull it all together.

MassivelyOP has been doing a much better job of giving a one stop source which often links me to other sites with what I need to know.

As for keeping conversations civil, you know I have no problem being a critic when I feel something is deficient, and this site has sold out significantly over the years from what it was in the name of survival. 

Remember,  as Rorschach said in the Watchmen,  "no compromise,  even in the face of Armageddon."

For some reason I can't figure though, you take criticism of this site as personal, which in my case most of my discussions never are, its more on a conceptual level.

cheyane

I'm going to have fun reading about the things people will do to annoy and hurt the people playing and drive them away. That will be when I can say very happily " I told you so".

Sovrath

RemyVorender said:

It's like they don't know their target audience. At all. 

Who is their target audience? Seems to me it's people who like Fallout but would like more player interaction and some pvp.

Because that's what this game seems to be aimed at. It's not aimed for "hardcore ffa pvp" players.

They are not the target audience.

Sovrath

cheyane said:

I'm going to have fun reading about the things people will do to annoy and hurt the people playing and drive them away. That will be when I can say very happily " I told you so".

From what Kyleran posted it doesn't seem that it will be possible to piss someone off enough so that they leave. Just ignore them, problem solved.

Scorchien

Trying to please everyone , you will end up pleasing noone .....

  That being said Modded servers can fix all that , but what im seeing looks like shit as far pvp mechainics go , half-baked Happy World .. Fallout?

TheDarkrayne

I like the system they are using. It'll result in the gankers ganking each other more often than not.

Honestly though, I think that because the Fallout fan base is, by likely majority, PvE focused.. they will eventually provide a way to play without any PvP at all. Hopefully they will catch on to this before launch. I think the game will be far less successful if they don't do this. It will be successful either way just because of the IP, but it'll be the difference between that success being good or being great.

Sovrath

Scorchien said:

Trying to please everyone , you will end up pleasing noone .....

  That being said Modded servers can fix all that , but what im seeing looks like shit as far pvp mechainics go , half-baked Happy World .. Fallout?

I don't think they are trying to please everyone. There seems to be this thought that they were making some sort of asked for hardcore ffa pvp game when that is not what they are doing.

They are making an ffa pvp game for people who want more say into whether they pvp or not. That is a whole group of people. It's not all or nothing.

Scorchien

Sovrath said:

Scorchien said:

Trying to please everyone , you will end up pleasing noone .....

  That being said Modded servers can fix all that , but what im seeing looks like shit as far pvp mechainics go , half-baked Happy World .. Fallout?

I don't think they are trying to please everyone. There seems to be this thought that they were making some sort of asked for hardcore ffa pvp game when that is not what they are doing.

They are making an ffa pvp game for people who want more say into whether they pvp or not. That is a whole group of people. It's not all or nothing.

With the plethora of deterrents/penalties/blockades to PVP it is barely a PVP game , Token PVP will not attract PVP players .. ANd its not FFA pvp by any means with the restrictions and rules in place ..

  But as i interjected Modded Servers would address those issues ..

Sovrath

Scorchien said:

Sovrath said:

Scorchien said:

Trying to please everyone , you will end up pleasing noone .....

  That being said Modded servers can fix all that , but what im seeing looks like shit as far pvp mechainics go , half-baked Happy World .. Fallout?

I don't think they are trying to please everyone. There seems to be this thought that they were making some sort of asked for hardcore ffa pvp game when that is not what they are doing.

They are making an ffa pvp game for people who want more say into whether they pvp or not. That is a whole group of people. It's not all or nothing.

With the plethora of deterrents/penalties/blockades to PVP it is barely a PVP game , Token PVP will not attract PVP players .. ANd its not FFA pvp by any means with the restrictions and rules in place ..

  But as i interjected Modded Servers would address those issues ..

Then maybe they are not making a pvp game but a game that "has" pvp for players who want to indulge on their own schedules.

As long as they allow "modded" servers (sort of like Conan Exiles) then I don't see there being an issue for players desiring a more hardcore pvp experience.

Scorchien

Sovrath said:

Scorchien said:

Sovrath said:

Scorchien said:

Trying to please everyone , you will end up pleasing noone .....

  That being said Modded servers can fix all that , but what im seeing looks like shit as far pvp mechainics go , half-baked Happy World .. Fallout?

I don't think they are trying to please everyone. There seems to be this thought that they were making some sort of asked for hardcore ffa pvp game when that is not what they are doing.

They are making an ffa pvp game for people who want more say into whether they pvp or not. That is a whole group of people. It's not all or nothing.

With the plethora of deterrents/penalties/blockades to PVP it is barely a PVP game , Token PVP will not attract PVP players .. ANd its not FFA pvp by any means with the restrictions and rules in place ..

  But as i interjected Modded Servers would address those issues ..

Then maybe they are not making a pvp game but a game that "has" pvp for players who want to indulge on their own schedules.

As long as they allow "modded" servers (sort of like Conan Exiles) then I don't see there being an issue for players desiring a more hardcore pvp experience.

and my point ..is just that ..

 But i warn , if they are hoping to attract a PVP crowd to official servers with that rule set .. it will fail miserably in that regard ..

    That will Not attarct your pvp crowd , but rather work just as there rule sets in game, more as a deterrent to playing there game for PVP