I believe the OP is saying that the story in mmos centers around your character being a solo adventurer, and then forgets about your character as soon as you tackle any group content.
An exception to that is SWTOR. But I can't confirm because I could never seem to experience much story related group content without people screaming CLICK THROUGH CLICK THROUGH CLICK THROUGH !!!!!
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
MMORPG the RPG means Roleplaying game. That is what the gameplay is about.
I think you're completely misunderstanding or deliberately trying to affix properties to the gameplay that the acronym makes no reference to. In any case you're completely wrong and I have no interest in enlightening one so obdurate.
It is fallacy to say that in an MMORPG you actions have to affect the world or other players. That is not in the definition and arguing that as a base is what is fueling this misapprehension. Sandbox is not necessary either in an MMORPG. Don't try to hoodwink people with false premises and asking them to argue with those base falsehoods.
Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game does not say anything about sandboxes or influencing other players by your actions. So soloing and working alone in an MMORPG is perfectly within this world and scope.
It's amazing how people fall for this nonsense and keep arguing on his premises without challenging the very basic false premises he has based it on.
OK, explain how you will have massively multiplayer gameplay if the actions of every player do not affect the others? You disagree. OK. Then explain how it works. Sorry, but singleplayer is the opposite of multiplayer. Also you do not work in games, if you do - you have a problem as a player. As I explained MMO is not controversial to the solo gameplay. EVE and L2 prove that. But it is obviously controversial to the singleplayer gameplay. You are the one who writes nonsense.
What a load of absurd nonsense you spout. Your gibberish has no relation to the term MMORPG created and defined by Richard Garriott in the slightest, trying to base a discussion on that premise is simply deceitful and manipulative.
A simple observation, when you come up with far out, bold claims like you do, its not up to others to prove you are wrong, it is up to you to prove you are right. You haven't done any of that, its just made up wishful thinking cowardly hidden behind the word "fact." Like I said before, you don't look intelligent or edgy with your opinions, you look oblivious. And I don't have to straighten that out, you do. Good luck proving yourself right.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I told you. I will admit I'm wrong when you explain how a game could be massively multiplayer without sandbox open world.
I explained how a sandbox open world makes the game MMO. I did my work. Now it is your turn.
If you claim the existence of many players in one world makes the game massively multiplayer - this is obviously wrong. If all play singleplayer such a game is not even multiplayer - this is also obvious.
If 100 players play solitaire in one room, that does not create a massive poker game.
No, its not obvious. How people play does not define a game, if all players go solo in L2 it doesn't unbecome an MMORPG, thats beyond ridiculous...
In WoW one person can affect all the other players btw, if he buys that one rare mount of the AH no one else can, if he kills that rare spawn all the others can't and have to wait, totally massively multiplayer right?
And you didn't prove a single thing yet except that you don't know the difference between opinion and fact. Which is hilarious since you're full of the former and lack the latter.
Tldr, you are making stuff up, without proper evidence or logic.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Indeed. Multiplayer and singleplayer are two different games.
Singleplayer, and Multiplayer, are not games at all.
Maybe you thinking they are is part of the problem you seem to have with MMORPGs in general.
Solitaire - a singleplayer game with cards. Poker - a multiplayer game with the same cards. Well obviously you never will get the point, as it needs some thinking.
Do you actually think before you type?
You claimed Singleplayer is a game, you also claimed Multiplayer is a game.
They are adjective's describing noun's.
Think about that.
Singleplayer describes a type of game.
Multiplayer describes a type of game.
Seems to me you miss your own point tbh.
It is a funny world we live in. We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
It is not Massive group oriented interconnected role playing either.
It is massively multiplayer. 80% of the time in EVE you play solo. But the sandbox open world makes the game MMO. If your gameplay does not affect the other players, the MMO is not possible. Same with the L2 before GoD or L2 Classic, but there the multiplayer group content is more on daily basis. If you want to play solo why don't you play solo games? Well you do it in games like WoW, but in general this is the main question. You go into MMO so your gameplay to affect and to be appreciated by the other players, but you do not want to play with them. It is absurd delusional behavior. Maybe I'm wrong, but give me another reason to progress into multiplayer instead into singleplayer game.
MMO has nothing to do with affecting others. That is a term for size not interaction.
No, its not obvious. How people play does not define a game, if all players go solo in L2 it doesn't unbecome an MMORPG, thats beyond ridiculous...
In WoW one person can affect all the other players btw, if he buys that one rare mount of the AH no one else can, if he kills that rare spawn all the others can't and have to wait, totally massively multiplayer right?
And you didn't prove a single thing yet except that you don't know the difference between opinion and fact. Which is hilarious since you're full of the former and lack the latter.
Tldr, you are making stuff up, without proper evidence or logic.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Every game has rules. So how people play is what defines the game. And I mean every game, not just video games. If all the players start to play solo in L2 it will not be a MMO anymore. As if every player in a football team starts to play solo, it will not be a team and it will not be a football anymore. I'm talking about what you call soccer. Well, let say basketball - the logic is the same. But such a thing in L2 is not possible because it is a sandbox game with open world. So what you do affects the other players.
OK, the rare mounts make WoW a MMO, if you say so, I agree. You have hilarious arguments
You're being ignorant on purpose now which is fine. According to you a real MMORPG needed to have one players action have effect on all others so I gave an example. My arguments are hilarious indeed because they had to comply to your idiotic msde up rules, which I did so I could prove you wrong, which I also did.
And if everybody in a soccer/football team starts to play solo it is actually still a soccer/football match, that doesn't change. So wrong again. And you can drop the "different then everybody else so totally smart and cool" act, its fake and boring.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I am quite certain he does know that massively refers to scale of the multiplayer but has devised a way to lure people into arguing with him by first setting up his own definition and requirements to steer the discussion his way.
So newer unsuspecting people tend to simply start the argument at a disadvantage trying to follow his definitions and requirements and mired in mud thereafter. Then he declares his ideas have triumphed while one is still trying to decide how sandbox and players actions must affect others got into the MMORPG in the first place. He then proceeds to condemn all the games he dislikes mainly WoW and BDO and has cleverly lead one by the nose.
It is not Massive group oriented interconnected role playing either.
It is massively multiplayer. 80% of the time in EVE you play solo. But the sandbox open world makes the game MMO. If your gameplay does not affect the other players, the MMO is not possible. Same with the L2 before GoD or L2 Classic, but there the multiplayer group content is more on daily basis. If you want to play solo why don't you play solo games? Well you do it in games like WoW, but in general this is the main question. You go into MMO so your gameplay to affect and to be appreciated by the other players, but you do not want to play with them. It is absurd delusional behavior. Maybe I'm wrong, but give me another reason to progress into multiplayer instead into singleplayer game.
So a game can't be called MMORPG if It's not affecting the gameworld?
I am quite certain he does know that massively refers to scale of the multiplayer but has devised a way to lure people into arguing with him by first setting up his own definition and requirements to steer the discussion his way.
So newer unsuspecting people tend to simply start the argument at a disadvantage trying to follow his definitions and requirements and mired in mud thereafter. Then he declares his ideas have triumphed while one is still trying to decide how sandbox and players actions must affect others got into the MMORPG in the first place. He then proceeds to condemn all the games he dislikes mainly WoW and BDO and has cleverly lead one by the nose.
And here I was trying to do him a favor by protecting him from himself so he would look less dumb, pfft
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
It is not Massive group oriented interconnected role playing either.
It is massively multiplayer. 80% of the time in EVE you play solo. But the sandbox open world makes the game MMO. If your gameplay does not affect the other players, the MMO is not possible. Same with the L2 before GoD or L2 Classic, but there the multiplayer group content is more on daily basis. If you want to play solo why don't you play solo games? Well you do it in games like WoW, but in general this is the main question. You go into MMO so your gameplay to affect and to be appreciated by the other players, but you do not want to play with them. It is absurd delusional behavior. Maybe I'm wrong, but give me another reason to progress into multiplayer instead into singleplayer game.
So a game can't be called MMORPG if It's not affecting the gameworld?
You quote a wrong post for that question. And no. The multiplayer sandbox game is a different thing from a singleplayer sandbox game. The game cannot be a MMO if the actions of every player do not affect the other players - not the world (singleplayer), but the players (multiplayer).
Massively multiplayer means thousands of players (limited by the hardware), but all the players on the server play with each other. Obviously that is possible only if every one of them creates a wave effect that spreads.
So you are telling me that the past 20 years of MMORPG that has coming out, the devs mislabeled them and they were all wrong what a MMORPG should be, wow I never thought I would see the day when random interweb dude held all the answers that people have debated for years.
Ok seriously, I agree that the story-line stuff in MMOs can be pretty bad in the way they handle the protagonist. But to sit and say they are not MMORPGs is simply absurd.
Lets start at the beginning - The first really graphical MMORPG. Meridian 59
Massive - Check (Thousands of Concurrent Players)
Multiplayer - Check (Fight with/or against people, trade, etc.)
Online - Check
Role Playing Game - Check (Character Advancement, and the idea that you assume a role)
Sandbox? No.
By your own definition M59 was not a MMORPG. But what I would like to know is at what point did any of the games before EVE Online exist as MMORPGs by your definition? Interaction does not always mean you affect their gameplay in any truly meaningful manner. In fact if I started with the communities in games today, I would have picked a different hobby, people are freaking toxic. Unfortunately a point that you are proving. Stop overthinking what a MMORPG is.... What you are looking for has nothing to do with the term. Sandbox/Sandpark/Themepark also doesn't have much to do with it. "Virtual World" is what you are looking for. A Place where the world exists and can be changed by the player... While this is similar to a sandbox, this can also be done in a themepark environment via events.
People are too hung up on labels. Examine a game for what it is... don't try to change it... support the ones that have ideas you like and stay away from the ones you don't. I for one am not playing any MMO's at the moment because I have found none that interest me... and I have little faith in ones that are upcoming.
Could MMOs at least "evolve" within its own species, instead of jumping to a brand new one, please?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
When you start telling developers how they have to make a game, it's time to get off the games a while go grab a beer and maybe do some fishing. It's a game, the rules are what they tell you they are. No one makes you play their game, and while I'm sure they will happily take your input, there is no "right" way to make any game
I thought there was. I constantly see how "the old way" will not work anymore. Seems like there is a "right way" after all...
[edit] More succinctly put: "Don't buck The Formula!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I am quite certain he does know that massively refers to scale of the multiplayer but has devised a way to lure people into arguing with him by first setting up his own definition and requirements to steer the discussion his way.
So newer unsuspecting people tend to simply start the argument at a disadvantage trying to follow his definitions and requirements and mired in mud thereafter. Then he declares his ideas have triumphed while one is still trying to decide how sandbox and players actions must affect others got into the MMORPG in the first place. He then proceeds to condemn all the games he dislikes mainly WoW and BDO and has cleverly lead one by the nose.
And here I was trying to do him a favor by protecting him from himself so he would look less dumb, pfft
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I fell for that a couple of months back. Once he said that playing a single player game in front of others made it multiplayer, I stopped and blocked his posts. Life is so much easier now
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Not again. Just because you like grouping doesn't mean everyone else does, or that they should be forced to do so. People play the way they play and it's up to them, that's the definition of choice which is what an MMO is supposed to be. You will just have to deal with it.
That's the thing, isn't it? MMOs are "Massively Multiplayer" games. The choice comes when one installs the "Massively Multiplayer" game on their "entertainment device" (PCs, consoles, mobiles).
Would you "expect" a wonderful single player experience in PUBG or Fortnite? There are tons of single player games (RPG, ARPG, FPS, TPS, RTS, TBS, etc) that do "single player" better than any multiplayer game ever will. Why? They're built that way from the very foundation.
It's tough for me to wrap my head around a player thinking, "I want to play a single player game." and then clicking that MMO launcher. I do understand that some IPs in the MMO genre are good, but many already have single player games available, too.
"The Choice" should come not within the game, but rather before the player clicks that launcher, right?
Now, to reiterate, I agree that solo activities should be available, but there is a difference between doing things solo while interacting with others and ignoring all the other players as if they don't exist. I think that all MMOs (I have not played them all) have grouping available, but some entice grouping better than others.
@TheScavenger has a good point that even within a group, the quest dialogue is about one player, not the group. That is a single player foundation, in my mind.
It's kind of sad that @Theocritus is right that WoW gives players what they want, and what that seems to be is a solo experience in an MMO, with the obvious exception of raids. Where is the logic here?
I'm not a proponent of "forced grouping" where a player must be in a group from when they set foot in the starting zone all the way through to the end game in order to survive, but isn't there a happy medium here? Players do not need to be in a group to interact with others. Sometimes, grouping can limit the interaction to 4 to 8 players only, shutting out all of the other players not in a specific group.
Maybe some "expectations" need to be adjusted? Single Player does not equate well to MMO, even though that seems to be what the majority of players desire. :shrug:
I don't necessarily disagree with your definition of Multiplayer, but I do believe the MMO genre has evolved and it is not quite as black and white as you describe it.
Think about it this way. On any given Sunday, plenty of people don't necessarily want to hang out with friends. That doesn't mean that they lock themselves in. They still like to go to food markets, for a pint or to a coffee shop to read a book. Just because they don't want to interact does not mean they want to be alone. Some enjoy being by themsleves amongst people. Depending on their mood and given the right surroundings they might even join a group activity, chat up someone but not necessarily.
That translates to MMOs too. Just because someone enjoys MMOs, doesn't mean he or she wants to actually play with others. Some might join in given the right incentive, others never do. It is still a different experience than an offline solo gameplay experience. Just like reading a book in a coffee shop is different from reading at home. Or going on a trip by yourself. You still might enjoy being among people, but not necessarily want to join in.
MMOs should, however, give the player the choice. I personally like both, group play and solo play in MMOs. I hate that they made public dungeons so easy to play through in ESO. When the game was released you had to be very careful what to pull and where genuinely glad to run into another player. I miss this sense of camaraderie. Not forced grouping, but wanting to group.
I am quite certain he does know that massively refers to scale of the multiplayer but has devised a way to lure people into arguing with him by first setting up his own definition and requirements to steer the discussion his way.
So newer unsuspecting people tend to simply start the argument at a disadvantage trying to follow his definitions and requirements and mired in mud thereafter. Then he declares his ideas have triumphed while one is still trying to decide how sandbox and players actions must affect others got into the MMORPG in the first place. He then proceeds to condemn all the games he dislikes mainly WoW and BDO and has cleverly lead one by the nose.
And here I was trying to do him a favor by protecting him from himself so he would look less dumb, pfft
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I fell for that a couple of months back. Once he said that playing a single player game in front of others made it multiplayer, I stopped and blocked his posts. Life is so much easier now
Nah, I knew from the start that he was faking it "for the sake of the argument." Unfortunately that argument is ill construed, badly formulated, randomly put together and bordering on the non sensical making his effort a massive waste of time. He is basically saying that red is the best color because grass is green, the same catagory but no relation whatsoever. Thats not clever, its sad.
Tldr: his reasoning is worse then his acting.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Nah, I knew from the start that he was faking it "for the sake of the argument." Unfortunately that argument is ill construed, badly formulated, randomly put together and bordering on the non sensical making his effort a massive waste of time. He is basically saying that red is the best color because grass is green, the same catagory but no relation whatsoever. Thats not clever, its sad.
Tldr: his reasoning is worse then his acting.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
You know, when there is lack of arguments, you always can attack the people or the posts. It is ugly, but many guys here do it. Or you can change the topic into something else, where you have arguments - it is also ugly, but popular way to gank the threads you do not like. Obviously you do not want to debate or to think, you want to win. It is strange you PvP here instead in the games.
There is nothing to win here, there also isn't anything to debate, your reasoning is non sensical and your arguments stop at 'because I say so'. My comparison with colors is literally what you are doing, creating false connections.
Also, I am not attacking you, I simply state that you are an actor, a bad one, but still. If I was attacking you or was mean spirited I would have simply called you a liar. You are having fun with your persona and his weird reasoning, and I am having fun with that. I can act too, better probably
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You know, when there is lack of arguments, you always can attack the people or the posts. It is ugly, but many guys here do it. Or you can change the topic into something else, where you have arguments - it is also ugly, but popular way to gank the threads you do not like. Obviously you do not want to debate or to think, you want to win. It is strange you PvP here instead in the games.
There is nothing to win here, there also isn't anything to debate, your reasoning is non sensical and your arguments stop at 'because I say so'. My comparison with colors is literally what you are doing, creating false connections.
Also, I am not attacking you, I simply state that you are an actor, a bad one, but still. If I was attacking you or was mean spirited I would have simply called you a liar. You are having fun with your persona and his weird reasoning, and I am having fun with that. I can act too, better probably
/Cheers, Lahnmir
You are just trolling, as you have no arguments, your logic failed, and you do not like the thread and what I say. You want to destroy any discussion by attacking me, or anybody who has different opinion from yours. You do not argue the OP, or what I write, but you deny my right to express opinion as you claim all I say is invalid by presumption. In fact you call me liar and stupid and etc., but you do it indirectly and hypocritically as obviously you are afraid to violate the rules of the forum with direct insults. Your last dozen of posts are not about the OP, or the issues in the MMORPGs, but about me. I'm glad I took your attention, but this is not the topic of this thread.
It is flattering that you single me out, but half of this thread has been various people telling you you are wrong. Yet you make fun of them, ignore them or shut them up. Classic trolling, but in a cheap attempt to divert attention from what you are doing you try to pin that one on me, how disappointing.
You make fun of other people but you can't handle it when someone does that to you, I gave several arguments but you made fun of them all. And now you have made an angry post because I call you out on it. I stayed on topic, you jokingly brushed it aside. you ignore what people say, make fun of their reasoning and simply keep on repeating what you have said before, you don't want a debate, you don't want on argument, you want to be right and look smart while doing so. And that is fine, but don't bullshit the people on these forums, just be honest about it.
As for the OP, you haven't bothered with that at all, you just saw an opening to inject your own agenda and story into it all with your WoW dislike and opinion on what an MMORPG should look like.
But I am out, you are starting to drop your act and getting angry, nothing worth debating and I am not here to start a fight.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Post edited by lahnmir on
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I am quite certain he does know that massively refers to scale of the multiplayer but has devised a way to lure people into arguing with him by first setting up his own definition and requirements to steer the discussion his way.
So newer unsuspecting people tend to simply start the argument at a disadvantage trying to follow his definitions and requirements and mired in mud thereafter. Then he declares his ideas have triumphed while one is still trying to decide how sandbox and players actions must affect others got into the MMORPG in the first place. He then proceeds to condemn all the games he dislikes mainly WoW and BDO and has cleverly lead one by the nose.
And here I was trying to do him a favor by protecting him from himself so he would look less dumb, pfft
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I fell for that a couple of months back. Once he said that playing a single player game in front of others made it multiplayer, I stopped and blocked his posts. Life is so much easier now
It is true that it would be best to put him on ignore but I have noticed he just interjects this ridiculous view and arguments in other threads and if one does not come and set the record straight unsuspecting individuals continue to debate this nonsense for pages and waste the time of others and derail threads as it has in this case.
So I am of the opinion he needs people to engage and make sure the rubbish attempts to redefine well defined ideas in his own way to suit his agenda is at least checked.
Most people have indeed just chosen to ignore him or let him have the last post and the thread just dies off but that is unhealthy and allows the spread of disingenuous ideas to creep into the threatened genre that is MMORPG.
We are already experiencing problems in this genre with less resources and many companies unwilling to commit resources to this genre. We must protect it and most of all protect it for the newer people who become interested in the genre which can lead to more games of the type we want. We must not hesitate to engage, explain, expound and deter individuals who are merely trying to destroy what many of us hold dear to our hearts.
I fell for that a couple of months back. Once he said that playing a single player game in front of others made it multiplayer, I stopped and blocked his posts. Life is so much easier now
Maybe it is my bad English, but in fact I said the opposite. I think you are the one who is trying to convince yourself that existence - so to see other players on the server, is a multiplayer gameplay.
I don't necessarily disagree with your definition of Multiplayer, but I do believe the MMO genre has evolved and it is not quite as black and white as you describe it.
Think about it this way. On any given Sunday, plenty of people don't necessarily want to hang out with friends. That doesn't mean that they lock themselves in. They still like to go to food markets, for a pint or to a coffee shop to read a book. Just because they don't want to interact does not mean they want to be alone. Some enjoy being by themsleves amongst people. Depending on their mood and given the right surroundings they might even join a group activity, chat up someone but not necessarily.
That translates to MMOs too. Just because someone enjoys MMOs, doesn't mean he or she wants to actually play with others. Some might join in given the right incentive, others never do. It is still a different experience than an offline solo gameplay experience. Just like reading a book in a coffee shop is different from reading at home. Or going on a trip by yourself. You still might enjoy being among people, but not necessarily want to join in.
MMOs should, however, give the player the choice. I personally like both, group play and solo play in MMOs. I hate that they made public dungeons so easy to play through in ESO. When the game was released you had to be very careful what to pull and where genuinely glad to run into another player. I miss this sense of camaraderie. Not forced grouping, but wanting to group.
Yeah freedom! Well there is only one problem with that - WoW has factions. So wtf is the free choice? To play safe singleplayer? You accept the game to predefine your relations with the other players, but when it comes to interrupting the singleplayer attitude - this is against your free will. Honestly that behavior has nothing with the freedom and the choice. Games like EVE with FFA PvP and open world give far more freedom - no factions, no dungeons for limited number of players, you are free to go and explore everywhere - no giga mega bosses only for few. Well with the free choice comes the risk, but this is the price of the freedom.
You do know EVE recently added single player, instance only PVE content in their last big expansion right?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
@ikcin I think perhaps you need to step back and realize that you do not get to decide what a MMORPG is. I am going to assist you with some History, and this might help you realize that the term existed and was created originally for Ultima Online.
MMORPG is a term coined by Richard Garriott to refer to massive multiplayer online role-playing games and their social communities.[11] The link between Garriott and the MMORPG term has been recognised by many scholars.[15] Previous to this and related coinages, these games were generally called graphical MUDs; the history of MMORPGs traces back directly through the MUD genre.[16][17] Through this connection, MMORPGs can be seen to have roots in the earliest multi-user games such as Mazewar (1974) and MUD1 (1978).
So as you can see from this information, as many people have already told you, your definition and ideology behind the MMOG or more specifically the MMORPG is incorrect. Massively Multiplayer refers to the Social, and interactivity capability between players. So when thousands of players can exist in the same world at the same time together, it would fall under the term MMO.
I understand what you are trying to say, and in many ways I DO agree with the OP and yourself. However when you present the idea in the manner you are stating, it either comes across as trolling or plainly absurd. WoW, LoTRo, Eve, are all MMOGs... though the lines are becoming so blurred. I am not going to argue this any further as if you cannot accept the facts presented before you then there is no changing your mind and discussion becomes pointless. I have been playing these games since the MUD days, and remember when the term was coined.
Comments
Talk about obvious....
We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
An exception to that is SWTOR. But I can't confirm because I could never seem to experience much story related group content without people screaming CLICK THROUGH CLICK THROUGH CLICK THROUGH !!!!!
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Singleplayer, and Multiplayer, are not games at all.
Maybe you thinking they are is part of the problem you seem to have with MMORPGs in general.
We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
I think you're completely misunderstanding or deliberately trying to affix properties to the gameplay that the acronym makes no reference to. In any case you're completely wrong and I have no interest in enlightening one so obdurate.
Check a dictionary .
In WoW one person can affect all the other players btw, if he buys that one rare mount of the AH no one else can, if he kills that rare spawn all the others can't and have to wait, totally massively multiplayer right?
And you didn't prove a single thing yet except that you don't know the difference between opinion and fact. Which is hilarious since you're full of the former and lack the latter.
Tldr, you are making stuff up, without proper evidence or logic.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You claimed Singleplayer is a game, you also claimed Multiplayer is a game.
They are adjective's describing noun's.
Think about that.
Singleplayer describes a type of game.
Multiplayer describes a type of game.
Seems to me you miss your own point tbh.
We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
And if everybody in a soccer/football team starts to play solo it is actually still a soccer/football match, that doesn't change. So wrong again. And you can drop the "different then everybody else so totally smart and cool" act, its fake and boring.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
So newer unsuspecting people tend to simply start the argument at a disadvantage trying to follow his definitions and requirements and mired in mud thereafter. Then he declares his ideas have triumphed while one is still trying to decide how sandbox and players actions must affect others got into the MMORPG in the first place. He then proceeds to condemn all the games he dislikes mainly WoW and BDO and has cleverly lead one by the nose.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
[edit]
More succinctly put: "Don't buck The Formula!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Tldr: his reasoning is worse then his acting.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Also, I am not attacking you, I simply state that you are an actor, a bad one, but still. If I was attacking you or was mean spirited I would have simply called you a liar. You are having fun with your persona and his weird reasoning, and I am having fun with that. I can act too, better probably
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You make fun of other people but you can't handle it when someone does that to you, I gave several arguments but you made fun of them all. And now you have made an angry post because I call you out on it. I stayed on topic, you jokingly brushed it aside. you ignore what people say, make fun of their reasoning and simply keep on repeating what you have said before, you don't want a debate, you don't want on argument, you want to be right and look smart while doing so. And that is fine, but don't bullshit the people on these forums, just be honest about it.
As for the OP, you haven't bothered with that at all, you just saw an opening to inject your own agenda and story into it all with your WoW dislike and opinion on what an MMORPG should look like.
But I am out, you are starting to drop your act and getting angry, nothing worth debating and I am not here to start a fight.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
AlBQuirky said:
It is true that it would be best to put him on ignore but I have noticed he just interjects this ridiculous view and arguments in other threads and if one does not come and set the record straight unsuspecting individuals continue to debate this nonsense for pages and waste the time of others and derail threads as it has in this case.
So I am of the opinion he needs people to engage and make sure the rubbish attempts to redefine well defined ideas in his own way to suit his agenda is at least checked.
Most people have indeed just chosen to ignore him or let him have the last post and the thread just dies off but that is unhealthy and allows the spread of disingenuous ideas to creep into the threatened genre that is MMORPG.
We are already experiencing problems in this genre with less resources and many companies unwilling to commit resources to this genre. We must protect it and most of all protect it for the newer people who become interested in the genre which can lead to more games of the type we want. We must not hesitate to engage, explain, expound and deter individuals who are merely trying to destroy what many of us hold dear to our hearts.
Even the mighty have fallen.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon