Apparently the body of text in these forums has a limit and 882 characters was too long, so I'll forgo the copy and paste of previous comments and simply reply directly...
All you need to do is take a trip to STEAM and you can see for yourself that older games can be more popular then the newer, flashier versions. Here's some examples of newer, not always being better.
#1 - Civilization VI ( Majority of players will state IV and V are both better ) #2 - The Guild 3 ( Nearly 99% of players will state The Guild 2 is better ) #3 - Warhammer: Dawn of War 3 ( Majority of players will state DoW 1&2 are both better ) #4 - Destiny 2 ( Debatable but I think it sits at about 50% approval rating over Destiny 1 ) #5 - Borderlands 2 ( Another debatable that sits around 50% approval rating over original )
Point is, new games are not ALWAYS an improvement. Sometimes, actually as of late, A LOT of times game developers simply get it wrong. While you see Pantheon as a waste of time that few would be interested in, I see the plethora of Asian F2P PvP + cash shop games in the same manner.
To answer some of your questions though, since this is a forum for discussion, I will simply state that my answers, much like anyone else's are purely speculation.
Old school veteran players from EQ1 and UO era didn't have a lot to choose from back then. So saying they were more loyal is simply not going to fly. On the other hand, the plethora of games being shoved down our throats today has proven one thing to me. NOTHING can hold my interest like I had for games back in the day.
I don't know what you mean, why do I think Pantheon will be it. I'm pretty sure I've explained what I enjoy about Pantheon that very few MMOs offer. Comparing it to FFXIV or even WoW isn't going to work because neither of those games, at least WoW, is anything like it was when it launched. Probably why classic servers were created, albeit illegally.
How long will my interest or other player's interest last in Pantheon? If it lasts longer than 12 months, then it will surpass any other MMO I've played in the past 10 years. Since Age of Conan, I haven't played an MMO longer than 6 months. So, the fact you're concerned about the longevity of Pantheon. That is a problem I think EVERY MMO suffers from, new or old.
If you want to look at success though, EQ1 still exists. People are still playing it. It's been around for nearly 20 years and even if there's only 50,000 players, what more do you need? When I look for an MMO, my first concern is community and the types of players attracted to it. This is the reason I stopped playing WoW because it literally caters to children. It's a popular game, but I find it as about engaging as Wizard 101.
I look for a place to call home, where like-minded individuals can congregate and enjoy adventures or socialize while crafting. A lot of people remember the player created trade center in EQ, at least on my server, it was the East Common tunnel. Even though I played WoW for almost as long as I played EQ1, I don't have any memorable moments. I take that back, I vividly remember Barren chat and now I wish I didn't.
Pantheon isn't just about going back to old school gaming. It's about a place for players such as myself to call home. It's not about appealing to the mass market or the general audience. Pantheon is actually something I would consider similar to LOTRO in regards to community and loyalty and THAT in my opinion is a very, VERY good thing.
Fair points (other than the WOW is for children remark, which seems...petty) but it seems you are putting a lot on the shoulders of a very limited budget indie game that could not even barely raise half it's kickstarter. (Which was not funded successfully) I think it is safe to say that the audience for an mmorpg that appeals to fans of only one game (EQ1) is much smaller than you think. It is not about appealing to the masses. (Though didn't EQ1 change many things to do just that?) it is about creating a financially viable product that offers a sustained ROI for the developers and investors, all while appeasing their core fanbase that supported them. However few they are. Plus Pantheon has to compete with WOW classic which we can surmise holds many ex EQ1 players. I am a fan of mmorpgs. I love the possibilities of the genre. Which is why I got into the industry to begin with. Pantheon (and the like) are taking the genre backwards. It is fine that there are a few fans left that want a static experience like this but many of the 'features' in those types of games were just technical limitations of the day. Pantheon will struggle. I think a year is being generous. by 6 months time I feel the writing will be on the wall.
I honestly feel there are not enough fans around anymore to sustain this game. We will see.
Sometimes you need to take a step backwards in order to move forwards again. The F2P cash shop themepark MMOs of late may have moved the genre "forward" in you eyes, but not in a good way.
In choosing to be a successor to EQ1, they picked a game that already has a ton of content....So much so that most people that played it barely scratched the surface...Not only that but EQ1 is free now...So if you're going to make an EQ1 clone, why wouldn't we just go back to EQ1 and get more content and play for free?
In choosing to be a successor to EQ1, they picked a game that already has a ton of content....So much so that most people that played it barely scratched the surface...Not only that but EQ1 is free now...So if you're going to make an EQ1 clone, why wouldn't we just go back to EQ1 and get more content and play for free?
Because if I wanted to play EQ I would? Free means nothing to me as I'm a big believer in putting your money where your mouth is and supporting the things you enjoy.
I loved the look of Vanguard and the huge world. It felt a bit more serious than Everquest.
Pantheon, though it won't have quite the large World that Vanguard does, gives me that same "world feeling."
I'm good with it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Why a sizable group of fans of MMOs should be forced to play what the popular kids like?
Good question. Does anyone have the answer?
No one does. There hasn't been a game developed primarily for a market that existed 20 years ago. So, no one actually knows how "sizable" this group actually is. Pantheon (and /or WoW Classic) will be the first to really test that market's viability. If it turns out this market is only the vocal pro-Pantheon supporters, then they had better be willing to get all 19 of them on board hard. With 25+ subscriptions each. Otherwise, there won't be a Pantheon left to subscribe to.
As to the "group of fans ... should be forced to play". Again, no. Like so many of the pro-Pantheon supporters have said "this game is not for you". There are plenty of options, and one of this is simply "don't play any game". Most of the enjoyment of an MMORPG is due to the interaction with people. It's a frequently stated thing that the community is the thing. A game's community is what the players make of it. If a more modern game has an awful community, the answer isn't to flee looking for something better. The answer is to contribute and try to make it better.
Currently, the pro-Pantheon supporters give me the impression that they are fleeing from the current games because these games don't meet their expectations. Improve your situation wherever that is first, then failing that, look for something else. The grass is always greener, except that sometimes is indicative of a faulty septic system.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Why a sizable group of fans of MMOs should be forced to play what the popular kids like?
Good question. Does anyone have the answer?
No one does. There hasn't been a game developed primarily for a market that existed 20 years ago. So, no one actually knows how "sizable" this group actually is. Pantheon (and /or WoW Classic) will be the first to really test that market's viability. If it turns out this market is only the vocal pro-Pantheon supporters, then they had better be willing to get all 19 of them on board hard. With 25+ subscriptions each. Otherwise, there won't be a Pantheon left to subscribe to.
As to the "group of fans ... should be forced to play". Again, no. Like so many of the pro-Pantheon supporters have said "this game is not for you". There are plenty of options, and one of this is simply "don't play any game". Most of the enjoyment of an MMORPG is due to the interaction with people. It's a frequently stated thing that the community is the thing. A game's community is what the players make of it. If a more modern game has an awful community, the answer isn't to flee looking for something better. The answer is to contribute and try to make it better.
Currently, the pro-Pantheon supporters give me the impression that they are fleeing from the current games because these games don't meet their expectations. Improve your situation wherever that is first, then failing that, look for something else. The grass is always greener, except that sometimes is indicative of a faulty septic system.
I think you are assuming too much. It's not "just" community. Quite frankly I've always had varying ranges of good/bad community.
I'm looking for a more old style game. Plain and simple. Others are as well.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Currently, the pro-Pantheon supporters give me the impression that they are fleeing from the current games because these games don't meet their expectations. Improve your situation wherever that is first, then failing that, look for something else. The grass is always greener, except that sometimes is indicative of a faulty septic system.
To be honest, and with all due respect, I have the impression that the anti-Pantheon crowd (I am using this term loosely), doesn't even understand the Old School people.
I have the impression, that you are a bit too over confident in your doom and gloom analysis, not really understanding what you are talking about.
Some of you can't even acknowledge there is a huge difference in core
mechanics between Vanilla WoW and WoW Live, which tells a lot.
I prefer Old School games, not for nostalgia but for many tangible reasons, I could write an essay on it. Having said that I am not fleeing from anything. I play modern MMOs, and all sort of Single player games, new and old. Each year I subscribe averagly 6 months to ESO, then I play 3 months of GW2 while playing on and off BDO for two years, 3 games which are the opposite spectrum of Old School. I also try all new MMOs, and all new fads (I've been obsessed with Survival games for the last year). Recently I am playing Fortnite.
So why I enjoy a wide variety of genres and games, I still prefer the Old School mechanics in MMORPGS (I played 2 years in WoW vanilla servers, so I am sure, it's not just memories). Is it so difficult for you guys to accept that there is people who actually love what you consider boring and tedius, and than this people doesn't necessarily play P99 24/7?
Do you really think you are the only cool guys that know about modern gaming? Maybe you should review your assumptions, and be more open minded, because sure as hell, I am.
What you are describing though is not just old school mechanics. It is just EQ1 mechanics and world. AC was nothing like EQ. Either was UO. Or WOW Vanilla. Or FFXI. Or Runescape. My interest in all this is will this just be a nostalgia fest for EQ 1 fans? If not how many people will stick around for a game that caters to fans of one particular game. It is fascinating for sure. I am interested to see how it plays out.
I am not naive, I am well aware those games didn't have the same mechanics. Indeed UO was different from EQ, and EQ was different from SWG. They were completely different genres. Yet the underline mechanics, promoted what I think is essential for a MMORPG to be labed as such, that is Social interaction. Each of those game in their own way had mechanics that incentivize people to play together. Something that in modern MMOs is almost completely missing.
We can spend hours describing each of those different mechanics, but they all geared to create communities, so I define them as Old School, even if they are different from each other.
About the nostalgia issue (I am sick of it), I address that too:
So why I enjoy a wide variety of genres and games, I still prefer the Old School mechanics in MMORPGS (I played 2 years in WoW vanilla servers, so I am sure, it's not just memories).
You are misguided in thinking that people wants to play old mechanics because of nostalgia.
The gamer is a weird beast. Before Dark Souls, no developer would dare to make a game with permanent death. It was considered taboo by the industry. It took a small team with egg size balls to show the industry they were wrong.
Another example on how blind the game industry can be is Divinity. The industry thought that the 2D RPGs were a thing of the past, who would play a 2D RPGs these days with all the shiny Unreal engine powered RPGs available? Yet it took a small team to show them they were wrong.
The gaming industry follows the trends, it doesn't create them. That's the big mistake you guys keep doing, you trust too much their judgement. The game industry in general kills creativity, it takes small teams to create the trends that then the industry follows. So when the gaming industry says that a certain type of game won't work, I could not care less, they are all bean counters, they are not artists. And only game artist with complete freedom on the development of the game, create new trends.
Currently, the pro-Pantheon supporters give me the impression that they are fleeing from the current games because these games don't meet their expectations. Improve your situation wherever that is first, then failing that, look for something else. The grass is always greener, except that sometimes is indicative of a faulty septic system.
To be honest, and with all due respect, I have the impression that the anti-Pantheon crowd (I am using this term loosely), doesn't even understand the Old School people.
I have the impression, that you are a bit too over confident in your doom and gloom analysis, not really understanding what you are talking about.
Some of you can't even acknowledge there is a huge difference in core
mechanics between Vanilla WoW and WoW Live, which tells a lot.
I prefer Old School games, not for nostalgia but for many tangible reasons, I could write an essay on it. Having said that I am not fleeing from anything. I play modern MMOs, and all sort of Single player games, new and old. Each year I subscribe averagly 6 months to ESO, then I play 3 months of GW2 while playing on and off BDO for two years, 3 games which are the opposite spectrum of Old School. I also try all new MMOs, and all new fads (I've been obsessed with Survival games for the last year). Recently I am playing Fortnite.
So why I enjoy a wide variety of genres and games, I still prefer the Old School mechanics in MMORPGS (I played 2 years in WoW vanilla servers, so I am sure, it's not just memories). Is it so difficult for you guys to accept that there is people who actually love what you consider boring and tedius, and than this people doesn't necessarily play P99 24/7?
Do you really think you are the only cool guys that know about modern gaming? Maybe you should review your assumptions, and be more open minded, because sure as hell, I am.
I was in EQ1 from May 1999 until now. I was in that "old school" group. The only reason I wasn't there earlier was I had to build a computer to play it. My point has always been that people who where fanatical about EQ1 in 1999 aren't a cohesive group anymore. There's a lot of people who can't seem to grasp that, and continue to post as if their personal preferences were indicative of a large market segment.
Your reply started as a very contained and illuminating set of personal preferences. Then you extended your personal preferences onto a larger population who believe as you do.
I contend that an MMORPG needs a large stable population in order to be successful. You and others offer "Old School Players" as a candidate for this population. I've asked this many times, "Where are these people now?" They, like you, must be doing something. This old school group certainly isn't around as a cohesive block of players, at least not visibly so.
Regardless of your preferences and veiled accusations, I am hoping that Pantheon succeeds. Not because I want to play Pantheon. I'm waiting for the game after the successor to the sequel of a game built on the shoulders of Pantheon. Something that doesn't look to the past, or even the current game designs to entertain me. A game that will define new expectations for the genre.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I contend that an MMORPG needs a large stable population in order to be successful. You and others offer "Old School Players" as a candidate for this population. I've asked this many times, "Where are these people now?"
I prefer Old School games, not for nostalgia but for many tangible reasons, I could write an essay on it. Having said that I am not fleeing from anything. I play modern MMOs, and all sort of Single player games, new and old. Each year I subscribe averagly 6 months to ESO, then I play 3 months of GW2 while playing on and off BDO for two years, 3 games which are the opposite spectrum of Old School. I also try all new MMOs, and all new fads (I've been obsessed with Survival games for the last year). Recently I am playing Fortnite.
So why I enjoy a wide variety of genres and games, I still prefer the Old School mechanics in MMORPGS.
That's were they are (Yes it's the same post you quoted). Liking something from the past doesn't mean we are living in the past, I believe I am more open minded than the "open your eyes and move on" guys. Maybe it's not us the problem, it's you guys that try to railroad the game industry into a proven safe path instead of trying new or old uncharted waters?
You couldn’t be more wrong. You made a ton of assumptions. Before Divinity? Do you play any other indie games? Those types of games never stopped being made. Not all in the industry follows trends. At NInja Theory we create unique and interesting IPs and help further established ones. You are speaking about mainstream publishers with a stable of studios. AAA games. The indie scene has always been thriving and driving the industry. There are other games before Dark Souls that allowed the same mechanics. People just didn’t look for them until they were packaged into a prettier coat.
Exactly, it's not the type of game the issue, it's how you package it. So before judging on how successful a game can be, you should wait for the end results, and not just talk by slogans.
Just because games similar to DS or Divinity were made (not many), and didn't work, that doesn't mean that the genre doesn't work. A bad game is just a bad game, it doesn't define the popularity of a genre or a niche. You try until you get it right. Maybe Pantheon won't get it right, that doesn't mean other developers shouldn't try, just because other games failed before.
There is no genre or niche which is taboo in Gaming. No one that can predict what next big trend will be, no one.
I will. If it's a turd I will move on like I always did, I am not emotionally involved with it. But one think I will never do is saying "this genre is dead, stop making games for it" , which is what most of you seems to be doing. Which is sad coming from gamers, I thought gamers like diversity, we should promote that, rather than shutting it down.
It is not even about Pantheon. Reading comments in this forum gives me the impression that, most of you guys do not appreciate anything which is not mainstream, and actively work against it, as if it actually damages you in any way.
I am all for criticizing a game for his merits/demerits, but often this criticism is extended to the whole genre rather than the game itself. That should not happen IMO. Genres are about personal taste and people have different taste.
You can't debate on personal taste, unless you are a WoW developer.
Only they know that, what people like, is not what they really want.
I contend that an MMORPG needs a large stable population in order to be successful. You and others offer "Old School Players" as a candidate for this population. I've asked this many times, "Where are these people now?"
I prefer Old School games, not for nostalgia but for many tangible reasons, I could write an essay on it. Having said that I am not fleeing from anything. I play modern MMOs, and all sort of Single player games, new and old. Each year I subscribe averagly 6 months to ESO, then I play 3 months of GW2 while playing on and off BDO for two years, 3 games which are the opposite spectrum of Old School. I also try all new MMOs, and all new fads (I've been obsessed with Survival games for the last year). Recently I am playing Fortnite.
So why I enjoy a wide variety of genres and games, I still prefer the Old School mechanics in MMORPGS.
That's were they are (Yes it's the same post you quoted). Liking something from the past doesn't mean we are living in the past, I believe I am more open minded than the "open your eyes and move on" guys. Maybe it's not us the problem, it's you guys that try to railroad the game industry into a proven safe path instead of trying new or old uncharted waters?
There isn't a block of these old school gamers out there. Not in EQ1 (rather, the remnants of EQ1), not in P99 or other emulators. Your journey into Fortnite is your individual journey. It is not indicative of everyone who could be labeled 'old school'. You're depicting a case where players went their own way and everyone has focused on their personal preferences. That will mean a market where there is 5 or 10 playing Fortnite, a handful playing Paths of Exile, and maybe a few in games like Rift. The unspoken part of the question is one directly pertaining to the challenge that Pantheon is going to face -- how is VR (or Blizzard) going to market their new game to this fractured player base? What about Pantheon is going to appeal to the Call of Duty player or the Overwatch player?
If you've read anything I've written, you would know I'm not advocating for any company to 'play it safe'. I want innovation and change more than anything. I don't want to look back longingly at 1975 D&D sessions and want new campaigns and rules systems to repeat that. And that is exactly the path that VR is on, recreating a 20 year old game and discarding any new ideas that have been spawned in the interim.
The only 'safe' part I've ever advocated is that companies providing new games are fiscally stable. We can see what happens when games close down. Nobody wins. Development teams close down and talented staff drifts away without attempting anything but the basic attempt at a game. Everyone, Indie or AAA, Eastern or Western, simply lays down the same groundwork, but few (if any) games ever mature to advanced incarnations. The industry stagnates. Is it any wonder that people complain?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You know how you can tell how little someone knows about a topic by the things they say or ask?
There's a lot of that in this thread.
To paraphrase some examples (criticisms) from this thread (and others):
"Pantheon is designed around a more old-school playstyle that is highly group-centric, which is out of place in the modern MMO scene". Yes, we know. It's why we're following and/or backing it.
"Combat in Pantheon is slow and fights take longer, even with a full group, unlike like in modern MMOs." Yes, we know. It's why we're following and/or backing it.
"Pantheon won't pull in large player numbers that modern MMOs are designed to" Yes, we know. It's why we're following and/or backing it. Brad himself has gone on record, multiple times, at length, about this very thing explaining that they *know* Pantheon is a niche game, catering to an extant portion of the community who have longed for this kind of game, and have found viable options lacking. It's one of the main reasons they're developing it... to cater to a significant demographic that has been neglected for the past decade or so.
And on and on.
You'd *think* people who find Pantheon uninteresting would simply move on and find a game that does interest them. Not like there's literally dozens of other options on this very site to choose from. Instead, they swoop into the forums to share their "expert insights" on a game they demonstrably know nothing about.
Reading these criticisms and "expert insights" reminds me of a line from a Porcupine Tree song, "Anesthetize": "I'm saying nothing. But I'm saying nothing with feel".
Its also very easy to identify white knights by the comments made in these threads.
They tend to "swoop" to the defense of the game instead of ignoring comments made by people who upset them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There isn't a block of these old school gamers out there. Not in EQ1 (rather, the remnants of EQ1), not in P99 or other emulators. Your journey into Fortnite is your individual journey. It is not indicative of everyone who could be labeled 'old school'. You're depicting a case where players went their own way and everyone has focused on their personal preferences. That will mean a market where there is 5 or 10 playing Fortnite, a handful playing Paths of Exile, and maybe a few in games like Rift. The unspoken part of the question is one directly pertaining to the challenge that Pantheon is going to face -- how is VR (or Blizzard) going to market their new game to this fractured player base? What about Pantheon is going to appeal to the Call of Duty player or the Overwatch player?
If you've read anything I've written, you would know I'm not advocating for any company to 'play it safe'. I want innovation and change more than anything. I don't want to look back longingly at 1975 D&D sessions and want new campaigns and rules systems to repeat that. And that is exactly the path that VR is on, recreating a 20 year old game and discarding any new ideas that have been spawned in the interim.
The only 'safe' part I've ever advocated is that companies providing new games are fiscally stable. We can see what happens when games close down. Nobody wins. Development teams close down and talented staff drifts away without attempting anything but the basic attempt at a game. Everyone, Indie or AAA, Eastern or Western, simply lays down the same groundwork, but few (if any) games ever mature to advanced incarnations. The industry stagnates. Is it any wonder that people complain?
I totally understood your point, but not sure you understood mine. Maybe it's just me, I will rephrase it differently.
I cited my example just to point out that, not all people that wants Old School MMOs live in the past like you guys seems to suggest, we are not dinosaurs. I enjoy modern MMOs and games and embrace new trends, maybe more than some of the "progressive" people who patronize everyone who doesn't like where modern gaming is heading. I like gaming in its entirety.
Is everyone like me? Of course not, some people live in the past indeed. The point is, do not assume that whoever likes Old School games are all farts, because that is just an unsubstantiated claim. No one can know that for sure, certainly not the random guy on a gaming forum (me included).
When you ask, how will VR attract Overwatch players? Truth is they won't attract 95% of Overwatch players which will never like a game like Pantheon, but there are 5% of those players who are not 'core' Overwatch players and like me just enjoy a good game. Yet those people have specific liking, which in my case is Old School MMOs and if I had the chance to play a decent one I will jump at the chance. How many are we? Who knows. I don't, but you seem quite sure of the contrary.
It's not me/us assuming things, you will realize that is you guys declaring a game dead just because you think the player base is not there. I am not arguing that it's there, I am arguing that you should not say it is not there. Because you/we just don't know.
Hmm, watched 18 minutes, got bored and shut it off.
Not looking like a game I'll be playing.
Besides every video seems to be in this same dungeon, are there some for the game world?
There's a big difference between watching someone else play and playing the game yourself. Some games just don't entertain well on twitch, especially in Alpha.
I'm like you and find the streams boring. I didn't bother to watch this one. Or even lately the ones with Cohh and the devs doing QA, I don't watch those anymore. I just wait for someone to write up the transcript and read that.
However, I am still very excited to play Pantheon when it launches. Just trying not to let myself get too impatient!
Hmm, watched 18 minutes, got bored and shut it off.
Not looking like a game I'll be playing.
Besides every video seems to be in this same dungeon, are there some for the game world?
While the game is still in alpha, I'm not going to use that as an excuse. The problem lies in the Twitch streaming and unfortunately VR's lazy approach to setting up an exciting stream. Most demo's or PR campaigns will show huge PvP battles or boss fights. I don't think Pantheon is to that point in development yet and while they do plan to have PvP servers, that isn't their main focus right now.
However, if you are simply only interested in fast paced twitch style combat and overly drawn out boss fights with hundreds of people participating then no, Pantheon will never entertain you. Pantheon is basically bringing EQ style mechanics with some new additions into the current era of graphical environments. It's literally that simple of an analysis.
Not interested in flashy combat, I want to see what pulling a strong camp is like in the open game world.
I'm starting to think there's little to this game yet outside of this one dungeon.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hmm, watched 18 minutes, got bored and shut it off.
Not looking like a game I'll be playing.
Besides every video seems to be in this same dungeon, are there some for the game world?
While the game is still in alpha, I'm not going to use that as an excuse. The problem lies in the Twitch streaming and unfortunately VR's lazy approach to setting up an exciting stream. Most demo's or PR campaigns will show huge PvP battles or boss fights. I don't think Pantheon is to that point in development yet and while they do plan to have PvP servers, that isn't their main focus right now.
However, if you are simply only interested in fast paced twitch style combat and overly drawn out boss fights with hundreds of people participating then no, Pantheon will never entertain you. Pantheon is basically bringing EQ style mechanics with some new additions into the current era of graphical environments. It's literally that simple of an analysis.
Not interested in flashy combat, I want to see what pulling a strong camp is like in the open game world.
I'm starting to think there's little to this game yet outside of this one dungeon.
Then I guess I can only suggest waiting till the game is further along in development. Pantheon doesn't have $200 million to burn and so the pace of development may not go as quickly as we'd like.
Apparently even with $200M there is no gurantee of quicker delivery.
I'll just have to go play one of the other indie MMOs that's almost ready to launch
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I actually enjoyed the player streams (moreso than the dev ones) because it was a lot of fun listening to the relaxed banter and combat discussions that the gameplay produced. Sure, in any mmo if with friends you will chat while playing - but mostly about stuff totally unrelated to the game. With strangers you tend to just get on with it in silence as there is no need to communicate. I don't deny the visuals are less thrilling - it's a tab target game, they are hardly exciting to watch. Even the oh so amazing WoW is a borefest to watch. Ironically Pantheon gameplay is actually more entertaining listening like a radio show than watching. To some that proves it is awful, to me it reinforces a big part of what i loved about old school games. Any other tab target game is both boring to watch and listen to.
Some feel the project will fail because going back is bad and games should always strive to evolve. It is a fair point, but to some (the big ? Is how many) so called evolution is what got us to the disappointingly generic and tedious mmos we have today. So maybe taking a step back and in time evolving from that is the best way forward.
Look at Vanilla WoW compared to what it has become. What if it had gone back to the start and chose a different path of evolution? One that kept closer to its original values (i know to many WoW, vanilla or not was still a hyper casualised game, especially off the back of EQ1) it brought in crazy numbers while still having the foundation of teamwork and community even if it was a more easy and streamlined experience (you can argue about that community, but to be fair, with that many people together on the internet having a toxic rep is inevitable as 5% bad eggs is a lot of people when talking millions). It would be interesting to see. Pantheon is attempting something along those lines - back to basics, then evolve from there (if successful).
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As to the "group of fans ... should be forced to play". Again, no. Like so many of the pro-Pantheon supporters have said "this game is not for you". There are plenty of options, and one of this is simply "don't play any game". Most of the enjoyment of an MMORPG is due to the interaction with people. It's a frequently stated thing that the community is the thing. A game's community is what the players make of it. If a more modern game has an awful community, the answer isn't to flee looking for something better. The answer is to contribute and try to make it better.
Currently, the pro-Pantheon supporters give me the impression that they are fleeing from the current games because these games don't meet their expectations. Improve your situation wherever that is first, then failing that, look for something else. The grass is always greener, except that sometimes is indicative of a faulty septic system.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I prefer Old School games, not for nostalgia but for many tangible reasons, I could write an essay on it.
Having said that I am not fleeing from anything.
I play modern MMOs, and all sort of Single player games, new and old.
Each year I subscribe averagly 6 months to ESO, then I play 3 months of GW2 while playing on and off BDO for two years, 3 games which are the opposite spectrum of Old School.
I also try all new MMOs, and all new fads (I've been obsessed with Survival games for the last year).
Recently I am playing Fortnite.
So why I enjoy a wide variety of genres and games, I still prefer the Old School mechanics in MMORPGS (I played 2 years in WoW vanilla servers, so I am sure, it's not just memories).
Is it so difficult for you guys to accept that there is people who actually love what you consider boring and tedius, and than this people doesn't necessarily play P99 24/7?
Do you really think you are the only cool guys that know about modern gaming?
Maybe you should review your assumptions, and be more open minded, because sure as hell, I am.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I am not naive, I am well aware those games didn't have the same mechanics.
Indeed UO was different from EQ, and EQ was different from SWG.
They were completely different genres.
Yet the underline mechanics, promoted what I think is essential for a MMORPG to be labed as such, that is Social interaction.
Each of those game in their own way had mechanics that incentivize people to play together.
Something that in modern MMOs is almost completely missing.
We can spend hours describing each of those different mechanics, but they all geared to create communities, so I define them as Old School, even if they are different from each other.
You are misguided in thinking that people wants to play old mechanics because of nostalgia.
The gamer is a weird beast.
Before Dark Souls, no developer would dare to make a game with permanent death.
It was considered taboo by the industry.
It took a small team with egg size balls to show the industry they were wrong.
Another example on how blind the game industry can be is Divinity.
The industry thought that the 2D RPGs were a thing of the past, who would play a 2D RPGs these days with all the shiny Unreal engine powered RPGs available?
Yet it took a small team to show them they were wrong.
The gaming industry follows the trends, it doesn't create them. That's the big mistake you guys keep doing, you trust too much their judgement.
The game industry in general kills creativity, it takes small teams to create the trends that then the industry follows.
So when the gaming industry says that a certain type of game won't work, I could not care less, they are all bean counters, they are not artists.
And only game artist with complete freedom on the development of the game, create new trends.
Your reply started as a very contained and illuminating set of personal preferences. Then you extended your personal preferences onto a larger population who believe as you do.
I contend that an MMORPG needs a large stable population in order to be successful. You and others offer "Old School Players" as a candidate for this population. I've asked this many times, "Where are these people now?" They, like you, must be doing something. This old school group certainly isn't around as a cohesive block of players, at least not visibly so.
Regardless of your preferences and veiled accusations, I am hoping that Pantheon succeeds. Not because I want to play Pantheon. I'm waiting for the game after the successor to the sequel of a game built on the shoulders of Pantheon. Something that doesn't look to the past, or even the current game designs to entertain me. A game that will define new expectations for the genre.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Liking something from the past doesn't mean we are living in the past, I believe I am more open minded than the "open your eyes and move on" guys.
Maybe it's not us the problem, it's you guys that try to railroad the game industry into a proven safe path instead of trying new or old uncharted waters?
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
So before judging on how successful a game can be, you should wait for the end results, and not just talk by slogans.
Just because games similar to DS or Divinity were made (not many), and didn't work, that doesn't mean that the genre doesn't work.
A bad game is just a bad game, it doesn't define the popularity of a genre or a niche.
You try until you get it right.
Maybe Pantheon won't get it right, that doesn't mean other developers shouldn't try, just because other games failed before.
There is no genre or niche which is taboo in Gaming.
No one that can predict what next big trend will be, no one.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
If it's a turd I will move on like I always did, I am not emotionally involved with it.
But one think I will never do is saying "this genre is dead, stop making games for it" , which is what most of you seems to be doing.
Which is sad coming from gamers, I thought gamers like diversity, we should promote that, rather than shutting it down.
It is not even about Pantheon.
Reading comments in this forum gives me the impression that, most of you guys do not appreciate anything which is not mainstream, and actively work against it, as if it actually damages you in any way.
I am all for criticizing a game for his merits/demerits, but often this criticism is extended to the whole genre rather than the game itself.
That should not happen IMO.
Genres are about personal taste and people have different taste.
There isn't a block of these old school gamers out there. Not in EQ1 (rather, the remnants of EQ1), not in P99 or other emulators. Your journey into Fortnite is your individual journey. It is not indicative of everyone who could be labeled 'old school'. You're depicting a case where players went their own way and everyone has focused on their personal preferences. That will mean a market where there is 5 or 10 playing Fortnite, a handful playing Paths of Exile, and maybe a few in games like Rift. The unspoken part of the question is one directly pertaining to the challenge that Pantheon is going to face -- how is VR (or Blizzard) going to market their new game to this fractured player base? What about Pantheon is going to appeal to the Call of Duty player or the Overwatch player?
If you've read anything I've written, you would know I'm not advocating for any company to 'play it safe'. I want innovation and change more than anything. I don't want to look back longingly at 1975 D&D sessions and want new campaigns and rules systems to repeat that. And that is exactly the path that VR is on, recreating a 20 year old game and discarding any new ideas that have been spawned in the interim.
The only 'safe' part I've ever advocated is that companies providing new games are fiscally stable. We can see what happens when games close down. Nobody wins. Development teams close down and talented staff drifts away without attempting anything but the basic attempt at a game. Everyone, Indie or AAA, Eastern or Western, simply lays down the same groundwork, but few (if any) games ever mature to advanced incarnations. The industry stagnates. Is it any wonder that people complain?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They tend to "swoop" to the defense of the game instead of ignoring comments made by people who upset them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not looking like a game I'll be playing.
Besides every video seems to be in this same dungeon, are there some for the game world?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe it's just me, I will rephrase it differently.
I cited my example just to point out that, not all people that wants Old School MMOs live in the past like you guys seems to suggest, we are not dinosaurs.
I enjoy modern MMOs and games and embrace new trends, maybe more than some of the "progressive" people who patronize everyone who doesn't like where modern gaming is heading.
I like gaming in its entirety.
Is everyone like me?
Of course not, some people live in the past indeed.
The point is, do not assume that whoever likes Old School games are all farts, because that is just an unsubstantiated claim.
No one can know that for sure, certainly not the random guy on a gaming forum (me included).
When you ask, how will VR attract Overwatch players?
Truth is they won't attract 95% of Overwatch players which will never like a game like Pantheon, but there are 5% of those players who are not 'core' Overwatch players and like me just enjoy a good game.
Yet those people have specific liking, which in my case is Old School MMOs and if I had the chance to play a decent one I will jump at the chance.
How many are we? Who knows.
I don't, but you seem quite sure of the contrary.
It's not me/us assuming things, you will realize that is you guys declaring a game dead just because you think the player base is not there.
I am not arguing that it's there, I am arguing that you should not say it is not there.
Because you/we just don't know.
Without knights there is no Camelot
I'm like you and find the streams boring. I didn't bother to watch this one. Or even lately the ones with Cohh and the devs doing QA, I don't watch those anymore. I just wait for someone to write up the transcript and read that.
However, I am still very excited to play Pantheon when it launches. Just trying not to let myself get too impatient!
I'm starting to think there's little to this game yet outside of this one dungeon.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'll just have to go play one of the other indie MMOs that's almost ready to launch
Oh wait....nm
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't deny the visuals are less thrilling - it's a tab target game, they are hardly exciting to watch. Even the oh so amazing WoW is a borefest to watch. Ironically Pantheon gameplay is actually more entertaining listening like a radio show than watching. To some that proves it is awful, to me it reinforces a big part of what i loved about old school games. Any other tab target game is both boring to watch and listen to.
Some feel the project will fail because going back is bad and games should always strive to evolve. It is a fair point, but to some (the big ? Is how many) so called evolution is what got us to the disappointingly generic and tedious mmos we have today. So maybe taking a step back and in time evolving from that is the best way forward.
Look at Vanilla WoW compared to what it has become. What if it had gone back to the start and chose a different path of evolution? One that kept closer to its original values (i know to many WoW, vanilla or not was still a hyper casualised game, especially off the back of EQ1) it brought in crazy numbers while still having the foundation of teamwork and community even if it was a more easy and streamlined experience (you can argue about that community, but to be fair, with that many people together on the internet having a toxic rep is inevitable as 5% bad eggs is a lot of people when talking millions). It would be interesting to see. Pantheon is attempting something along those lines - back to basics, then evolve from there (if successful).