Pretty sure Belgium will lose if this goes to court, no offense, but I'm confident that EA have better lawyers than Belgium(not the country as a whole, but those that work for the government) and they have already gone through all possible scenarios and are certain that they can win.
Belgium is not the US - no jury to sway just judges who will apply the law. So - as @kitarad said it will come down to how the law is crafted.
Pretty sure that as things are now Belgium stands no chance. Making loot boxes count as gambling might've passed as a law in Belgium, but as EA have already responded with their twisted logic they don't count them as gambling and I'm pretty sure that no one will be able to win a case against EA saying that certain loot from lootboxes is worth more than other because the loot is not meant to be sold for real money.
Also I'm not aware of the laws in the US, but pretty sure in this type of cases there is no jury, only both sides and the judge.
P.S. Btw all the people that think it's the "right" thing to do to stop selling loot boxes there... From ethical stand point, YES it is, however if companies don't respond to this there are high chances that a lot of countries will follow and while only Belgium having this law might have almost no lasting effect on the overall income of the companies in the long run if more companies follow their steps... You can guess the end result... millions and possibly billions of potential income will disappear, so they really don't have a choice.
I'm a Blizzard fan, but in my eyes they tried to play the "ethical" company and let other major companies do the fight for them, so that they don't ruin their image, because it was obvious that major companies won't take this laying down.
WTF are you saying? Belgian law applies in Belgium. A case in Belgium is going to be decided in a Belgian court.
Perhaps. EA may be planning on appealing the case to the European Court of Justice, on whether or not loot boxes really are gambling.
It appears they might have jurisdiction over this case in some manner. The last sentence is of particular note in EA's situation, 'the freedom to provide services...'
"There is no sector-specific EU legislation in the field of gambling services. EU countries are autonomous in the way they organise their gambling services, as long as they comply with the fundamental freedoms established under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the EU. The freedom to provide services or to open a business in another EU country is particularly relevant here."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
Is that your personal opinion or you got that definition from somewhere?
Because by that definition loot drops from mobs and bosses would also be gambling.
You don't pay a boss $4.99 for a chance at his loot drops.
Pretty sure Belgium will lose if this goes to court, no offense, but I'm confident that EA have better lawyers than Belgium(not the country as a whole, but those that work for the government) and they have already gone through all possible scenarios and are certain that they can win.
Belgium is not the US - no jury to sway just judges who will apply the law. So - as @kitarad said it will come down to how the law is crafted.
Pretty sure that as things are now Belgium stands no chance. Making loot boxes count as gambling might've passed as a law in Belgium, but as EA have already responded with their twisted logic they don't count them as gambling and I'm pretty sure that no one will be able to win a case against EA saying that certain loot from lootboxes is worth more than other because the loot is not meant to be sold for real money.
Also I'm not aware of the laws in the US, but pretty sure in this type of cases there is no jury, only both sides and the judge.
P.S. Btw all the people that think it's the "right" thing to do to stop selling loot boxes there... From ethical stand point, YES it is, however if companies don't respond to this there are high chances that a lot of countries will follow and while only Belgium having this law might have almost no lasting effect on the overall income of the companies in the long run if more companies follow their steps... You can guess the end result... millions and possibly billions of potential income will disappear, so they really don't have a choice.
I'm a Blizzard fan, but in my eyes they tried to play the "ethical" company and let other major companies do the fight for them, so that they don't ruin their image, because it was obvious that major companies won't take this laying down.
WTF are you saying? Belgian law applies in Belgium. A case in Belgium is going to be decided in a Belgian court.
Perhaps. EA may be planning on appealing the case to the European Court of Justice, on whether or not loot boxes really are gambling.
It appears they might have jurisdiction over this case in some manner. The last sentence is of particular note in EA's situation, 'the freedom to provide services...'
"There is no sector-specific EU legislation in the field of gambling services. EU countries are autonomous in the way they organise their gambling services, as long as they comply with the fundamental freedoms established under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the EU. The freedom to provide services or to open a business in another EU country is particularly relevant here."
That's just bloody sad if they do. Just because they can't make all the money in the world they're ready to throw their toys out the pram. They were the ones who brought this whole thing on in the first place, if they weren't such scumbags to start, these laws would have not passed.
It's like someone robing a shop and going to the police and trying to charge the shopkeeper for not allowing him to do so. How dare he defend himself
Millions of people who love NBA/FIFA and other sport games dissagree with you.
If EA were to go under, it would be a goddamn miracle for those same people (assuming that the exclusive NFL/FIFA licenses aren't exclusively sold to someone else). License exclusivity has killed any semblance of innovation and quality control in that genre by effectively removing competition.
Whether or not sports fans are intelligent enough to see it (they aren't), they would be the main beneficiaries of the death of EA.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Pretty sure Belgium will lose if this goes to court, no offense, but I'm confident that EA have better lawyers than Belgium(not the country as a whole, but those that work for the government) and they have already gone through all possible scenarios and are certain that they can win.
Belgium is not the US - no jury to sway just judges who will apply the law. So - as @kitarad said it will come down to how the law is crafted.
Pretty sure that as things are now Belgium stands no chance. Making loot boxes count as gambling might've passed as a law in Belgium, but as EA have already responded with their twisted logic they don't count them as gambling and I'm pretty sure that no one will be able to win a case against EA saying that certain loot from lootboxes is worth more than other because the loot is not meant to be sold for real money.
Also I'm not aware of the laws in the US, but pretty sure in this type of cases there is no jury, only both sides and the judge.
P.S. Btw all the people that think it's the "right" thing to do to stop selling loot boxes there... From ethical stand point, YES it is, however if companies don't respond to this there are high chances that a lot of countries will follow and while only Belgium having this law might have almost no lasting effect on the overall income of the companies in the long run if more companies follow their steps... You can guess the end result... millions and possibly billions of potential income will disappear, so they really don't have a choice.
I'm a Blizzard fan, but in my eyes they tried to play the "ethical" company and let other major companies do the fight for them, so that they don't ruin their image, because it was obvious that major companies won't take this laying down.
WTF are you saying? Belgian law applies in Belgium. A case in Belgium is going to be decided in a Belgian court.
Perhaps. EA may be planning on appealing the case to the European Court of Justice, on whether or not loot boxes really are gambling.
It appears they might have jurisdiction over this case in some manner. The last sentence is of particular note in EA's situation, 'the freedom to provide services...'
"There is no sector-specific EU legislation in the field of gambling services. EU countries are autonomous in the way they organise their gambling services, as long as they comply with the fundamental freedoms established under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the EU. The freedom to provide services or to open a business in another EU country is particularly relevant here."
The honorable thing to do is to stop selling the things in Belgium and then challenge the law in court.
Respect a countries laws
Screw you EA
I agree, if I was in charge of EA, I'd suspend Service to any game that had Loot Boxes to anyone in Belgium until the issue was resolved, IE: Indefinitely until Belgium let us sell Loot Boxes.
I would also withhold any future sales to that country until the issue was resolved.
After all, there are about the same number of people in the entire country of Belgium as there are in the City of New York.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
Is that your personal opinion or you got that definition from somewhere?
Because by that definition loot drops from mobs and bosses would also be gambling.
You don't pay a boss $4.99 for a chance at his loot drops.
If you pay a sub then raids would be your only interest then you are gambling?
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
Is that your personal opinion or you got that definition from somewhere?
Because by that definition loot drops from mobs and bosses would also be gambling.
You don't pay a boss $4.99 for a chance at his loot drops.
If you pay a sub then raids would be your only interest then you are gambling?
You're paying for the game content, not the roll.
Lootboxes don't require the playing of any game content. It's a direct purchase of a dice roll.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
If that argument was relevant, every casino could guarantee a minimum 1 cent credit on every roll, and would thus not constitute as gambling and would be exempt from gambling regulations by this definition.
Common sense would dictate that receiving 1 cent less profit on every roll would hurt casinos less than being exempt from gambling laws and gaining a larger costumer base would help them. In other words, the fact that casinos don't already do this is a practical demonstration that this is bullshit.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
only you can? most loot boxers have random things, people buy for that little rare drop you can't or will cost a lot in the game, don't matter if it will give me X item if I want Y since X is useless, don't matter if it does have value or not, that was not the reason then someone would buy it, check balde and soul trove then will start tomorrow, you really think people will open thousands just for pots?
Pretty sure Belgium will lose if this goes to court, no offense, but I'm confident that EA have better lawyers than Belgium(not the country as a whole, but those that work for the government) and they have already gone through all possible scenarios and are certain that they can win.
Belgium is not the US - no jury to sway just judges who will apply the law. So - as @kitarad said it will come down to how the law is crafted.
Pretty sure that as things are now Belgium stands no chance. Making loot boxes count as gambling might've passed as a law in Belgium, but as EA have already responded with their twisted logic they don't count them as gambling and I'm pretty sure that no one will be able to win a case against EA saying that certain loot from lootboxes is worth more than other because the loot is not meant to be sold for real money.
Also I'm not aware of the laws in the US, but pretty sure in this type of cases there is no jury, only both sides and the judge.
P.S. Btw all the people that think it's the "right" thing to do to stop selling loot boxes there... From ethical stand point, YES it is, however if companies don't respond to this there are high chances that a lot of countries will follow and while only Belgium having this law might have almost no lasting effect on the overall income of the companies in the long run if more companies follow their steps... You can guess the end result... millions and possibly billions of potential income will disappear, so they really don't have a choice.
I'm a Blizzard fan, but in my eyes they tried to play the "ethical" company and let other major companies do the fight for them, so that they don't ruin their image, because it was obvious that major companies won't take this laying down.
WTF are you saying? Belgian law applies in Belgium. A case in Belgium is going to be decided in a Belgian court.
I was responding to another comment. It's good to know that people can read...
Also there is a higher court that EA can appeal to, so yeah... Belgian cases aren't always ended in Belgium courts.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
Is that your personal opinion or you got that definition from somewhere?
Because by that definition loot drops from mobs and bosses would also be gambling.
You don't pay a boss $4.99 for a chance at his loot drops.
If you pay a sub then raids would be your only interest then you are gambling?
You're paying for the game content, not the roll.
Lootboxes don't require the playing of any game content. It's a direct purchase of a dice roll.
My initial wasn't addressing lootboxes but the definition of how every game of chance is gambling no matter if you can convert to real currency or not.
And I asked if this definition is a personal opinion or is from regulations of a certain country.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
Is that your personal opinion or you got that definition from somewhere?
Because by that definition loot drops from mobs and bosses would also be gambling.
You don't pay a boss $4.99 for a chance at his loot drops.
If you pay a sub then raids would be your only interest then you are gambling?
You're paying for the game content, not the roll.
Lootboxes don't require the playing of any game content. It's a direct purchase of a dice roll.
My initial wasn't addressing lootboxes but the definition of how every game of chance is gambling no matter if you can convert to real currency or not.
And I asked if this definition is a personal opinion or is from regulations of a certain country.
Cornell Law School has a pretty good page on what US law defines as gambling, including a section for online games.
From what I read here loot boxes fall outside of the definition. But then again, this is what fuels courtroom battles.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
Is that your personal opinion or you got that definition from somewhere?
Because by that definition loot drops from mobs and bosses would also be gambling.
You don't pay a boss $4.99 for a chance at his loot drops.
If you pay a sub then raids would be your only interest then you are gambling?
You're paying for the game content, not the roll.
Lootboxes don't require the playing of any game content. It's a direct purchase of a dice roll.
My initial wasn't addressing lootboxes but the definition of how every game of chance is gambling no matter if you can convert to real currency or not.
And I asked if this definition is a personal opinion or is from regulations of a certain country.
Understood, but you led it into an implication that a sub is a direct purchase of a loot roll. The requirement of it being a direct purchase of a chance to win is important.
If you buy a piece of art and, with that purchase, you're entered to win another piece, it's not gambling because the purchase was not the chance of the win, it was the purchase of the painting.
That's also why fast food restaurants can do things like Monopoly games. You aren't purchasing the chance to win, you're purchasing the meal.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
If that argument was relevant, every casino could guarantee a minimum 1 cent credit on every roll, and would thus not constitute as gambling and would be exempt from gambling regulations by this definition.
Common sense would dictate that receiving 1 cent less profit on every roll would hurt casinos less than being exempt from gambling laws and gaining a larger costumer base would help them. In other words, the fact that casinos don't already do this is a practical demonstration that this is bullshit.
It is relevant when people conflate lootboxes with casino gambling. They're not the same.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
If that argument was relevant, every casino could guarantee a minimum 1 cent credit on every roll, and would thus not constitute as gambling and would be exempt from gambling regulations by this definition.
Common sense would dictate that receiving 1 cent less profit on every roll would hurt casinos less than being exempt from gambling laws and gaining a larger costumer base would help them. In other words, the fact that casinos don't already do this is a practical demonstration that this is bullshit.
It is relevant when people conflate lootboxes with casino gambling. They're not the same.
Except that I just argued the very reason why you are claiming that casino gambling and lootboxes are not comparable. If that criteria is bunk, then you will need a new criteria as to why these two forms of gambling are not effectively comparable.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
If that argument was relevant, every casino could guarantee a minimum 1 cent credit on every roll, and would thus not constitute as gambling and would be exempt from gambling regulations by this definition.
Common sense would dictate that receiving 1 cent less profit on every roll would hurt casinos less than being exempt from gambling laws and gaining a larger costumer base would help them. In other words, the fact that casinos don't already do this is a practical demonstration that this is bullshit.
It is relevant when people conflate lootboxes with casino gambling. They're not the same.
Except that I just argued the very reason why you are claiming that casino gambling and lootboxes are not comparable. If that criteria is bunk, then you will need a new criteria as to why these two forms of gambling are not effectively comparable.
Some people get too frgigging hung up on legal gambling definitions with all of their exceptions and technicalities when they should really be looking at whether something is a simple and above board transaction or something rigged that has more in common with what you find in fair midways or back alleys.
Online gaming monetization has been sinking lower and lower using sleazy tricks, including but not exclusive to loot boxes, to the point that their business have all the morality of 3-card monte or other similar cons.
And the old standby "but they've got to make a profit" BS doesn't justify any of it. There are honest and above board ways of making a profit as well as dishonest deceptive ways of doing it.
I despise loot boxes not because they are or aren't gambling but simply because they are a sleazy and disrespectful way to mess with your customers.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Except that I just argued the very reason why you are claiming that casino gambling and lootboxes are not comparable. If that criteria is bunk, then you will need a new criteria as to why these two forms of gambling are not effectively comparable.
You can never recoup your losses when "winning" with your lootbox.
You can't feed your "gambling" with the contents of your lootbox.
Lootboxes are comparable to collectible sticker cards, kinder eggs and fair ground coconut shy stalls.
Some people get too frgigging hung up on legal gambling definitions with
all of their exceptions and technicalities when they should really be
looking at whether something is a simple and above board transaction or
something rigged that has more in common with what you find in fair
midways or back alleys.
I don't know why this partciular issue gets me hung up. I know lootboxes are a predatory practice.
I just don't agree with a ban or an age restriction.
I disagree it is gambling as welll regardless of Cash Payouts, anything that involves chance is "Gambling" maybe not in a Casino type which has Real World Payouts but any type of asset including digital assets such as clothing or cosmetics is gambling, llet alone if you can even resell those for in game currency.
You can't sell most of loot boxes drops from games.
That's the whole issue with loot boxes: They don't give you value. You are making a random purchase of contents that has no value because there is no market - Asides the % of rarity that could define chance, but not value.
That's the thing, people are starting to realize that: if you purchase a Magic: The Gathering Booster pack that comes random cards on it (but with fixed numbers of certain tiers of rarity) you can sell those cards (singles) to stores or another players, thus getting value out of it; Can you do the same with Hearthstone cards? You can dismantle them for dust, and that's it.
Besides, anyone in Magic community knows that if you are not a dealer boosters are only for drafts. So even in the oldest of it's form, loot boxes are not used to open and get what's inside. You want cards? Buy singles! Boosters are for drafts! Can you do the same in every other iteration of loot boxes? No. That's the point.
When you purchase a lootbox you ALWAYS get something in return from your investment.
There's no element of chance in that regard, you can never lose.
Whether someone got what they wanted, or what they got wasn't worth the price is completely irrelevant.
If that argument was relevant, every casino could guarantee a minimum 1 cent credit on every roll, and would thus not constitute as gambling and would be exempt from gambling regulations by this definition.
Common sense would dictate that receiving 1 cent less profit on every roll would hurt casinos less than being exempt from gambling laws and gaining a larger costumer base would help them. In other words, the fact that casinos don't already do this is a practical demonstration that this is bullshit.
It is relevant when people conflate lootboxes with casino gambling. They're not the same.
Except that I just argued the very reason why you are claiming that casino gambling and lootboxes are not comparable. If that criteria is bunk, then you will need a new criteria as to why these two forms of gambling are not effectively comparable.
You can never recoup your losses when "winning" with your lootbox.
You can't feed your "gambling" with the contents of your lootbox.
Lootboxes are comparable to collectible sticker cards, kinder eggs and fair ground coconut shy stalls.
You can in any lootbox system with player trading and/or marketplaces as an option. Ie: DotA2 and CS:GO, which have also run afoul of Belgian gambling laws. Try again.
You can in any lootbox system with player trading and/or marketplaces as an option. Ie: DotA2 and CS:GO, which have also run afoul of Belgian gambling laws. Try again.
So I'm gussing collectible sticker card packs, Kinder Eggs and fair ground stall rides are also banned in Belgium?
Some people get too frgigging hung up on legal gambling definitions with
all of their exceptions and technicalities when they should really be
looking at whether something is a simple and above board transaction or
something rigged that has more in common with what you find in fair
midways or back alleys.
I don't know why this partciular issue gets me hung up. I know lootboxes are a predatory practice.
I just don't agree with a ban or an age restriction.
That's probably because you're lawful good and I'm chaotic good
You want to see good laws applied logically and justly... I just want the fucking things eradicated from gaming by any means
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice
It appears they might have jurisdiction over this case in some manner. The last sentence is of particular note in EA's situation, 'the freedom to provide services...'
"There is no sector-specific EU legislation in the field of gambling services. EU countries are autonomous in the way they organise their gambling services, as long as they comply with the fundamental freedoms established under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), as interpreted by the Court of Justice of the EU. The freedom to provide services or to open a business in another EU country is particularly relevant here."
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/gambling_en
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's like someone robing a shop and going to the police and trying to charge the shopkeeper for not allowing him to do so. How dare he defend himself
Just accept it and move on.
Millions of people who love NBA/FIFA and other sport games dissagree with you.
Whether or not sports fans are intelligent enough to see it (they aren't), they would be the main beneficiaries of the death of EA.
Most appear to go out and buy EA games by the tens of millions regardless.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Less wealth being taken out of the country.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Lootboxes don't require the playing of any game content. It's a direct purchase of a dice roll.
Common sense would dictate that receiving 1 cent less profit on every roll would hurt casinos less than being exempt from gambling laws and gaining a larger costumer base would help them. In other words, the fact that casinos don't already do this is a practical demonstration that this is bullshit.
I was responding to another comment. It's good to know that people can read...
Also there is a higher court that EA can appeal to, so yeah... Belgian cases aren't always ended in Belgium courts.
And I asked if this definition is a personal opinion or is from regulations of a certain country.
From what I read here loot boxes fall outside of the definition. But then again, this is what fuels courtroom battles.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5362
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you buy a piece of art and, with that purchase, you're entered to win another piece, it's not gambling because the purchase was not the chance of the win, it was the purchase of the painting.
That's also why fast food restaurants can do things like Monopoly games. You aren't purchasing the chance to win, you're purchasing the meal.
Online gaming monetization has been sinking lower and lower using sleazy tricks, including but not exclusive to loot boxes, to the point that their business have all the morality of 3-card monte or other similar cons.
And the old standby "but they've got to make a profit" BS doesn't justify any of it. There are honest and above board ways of making a profit as well as dishonest deceptive ways of doing it.
I despise loot boxes not because they are or aren't gambling but simply because they are a sleazy and disrespectful way to mess with your customers.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You want to see good laws applied logically and justly... I just want the fucking things eradicated from gaming by any means
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED