Ashes of Creation: The next real "Evolution" for Archeage Players

jahlon

Theocritus

Wasn't Archeage supposed to be the revolutionary game? We saw how that worked out.

ultimateduck

Archeage had such amazing potential... that was ruined by greed.

jahlon

Theocritus said:

Wasn't Archeage supposed to be the revolutionary game? We saw how that worked out.

The game was great in the release build through 1.0.  Then from 1.0 to 2.9 it was ugh.   After 2.9 through 4.5 it was pain and pain and more pain.    Finally bailed in April of this year.

As far as how will Ashes pan out.  I'm pretty confident that the game will be solid.   Steven seems like he is very receptive to feedback.   He and I have talked one on one on a couple of occasions about issues and he is always willing to listen.  

ultimateduck said:

Archeage had such amazing potential... that was ruined by greed.

Trion FTW

Kyleran

jahlon said:

Theocritus said:

Wasn't Archeage supposed to be the revolutionary game? We saw how that worked out.

The game was great in the release build through 1.0.  Then from 1.0 to 2.9 it was ugh.   After 2.9 through 4.5 it was pain and pain and more pain.    Finally bailed in April of this year.

As far as how will Ashes pan out.  I'm pretty confident that the game will be solid.   Steven seems like he is very receptive to feedback.   He and I have talked one on one on a couple of occasions about issues and he is always willing to listen.  

ultimateduck said:

Archeage had such amazing potential... that was ruined by greed.

Trion FTW

XL Games shares more than their fair share of the blame for AA.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Azaron_Nightblade

blueturtle13 said:

jahlon said:

Trion FTW

Wrong. Trion is not the developer. Monetization is not their decision. 

They have a say big say in it however. Just look at some of the recent deals being made. Like AoC itself. The publisher they went with was the only one willing to go along with their standards of not making the game P2W.

So no, Trion is definitely not an innocent. I imagine they were both all too happy to make players spread those wallets wide.

Azaron_Nightblade

DMKano said:

Azaron_Nightblade said:

blueturtle13 said:

jahlon said:

Trion FTW

Wrong. Trion is not the developer. Monetization is not their decision. 

They have a say big say in it however. Just look at some of the recent deals being made. Like AoC itself. The publisher they went with was the only one willing to go along with their standards of not making the game P2W.

So no, Trion is definitely not an innocent. I imagine they were both all too happy to make players spread those wallets wide.

Once ArcheAge has a "relaunch" subscription version without cash-shop P2W elements - who will get the credit, XL or Trion?

hmm.....

Neither. Players will find something new to yell about instead

I imagine it was Trion that pushed for the relaunch though, yeah. But I'm still sure they were very much on board with the original monetization, with all of them having $_$ eyes at the idea of all the big money that it would be bringing both companies.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Pesky

ArcheAge is the absolute best PvE 'carebear' MMORPG I've ever played. With it's farming and housing and player run economy, it just blew every other MMO out of the water. Then they killed it!

As for Ashes of Creation, it just leaves me cold. All it seems to offer is more PvP gameplay that I have absolutely no interest in. It doesn't seem to have anything of interest for PvE carebears.

Time will tell of course, but for now, this game looks like it's made by a PvP player for other PvP players. Which is great, but not for me.

jahlon

Pesky said:

ArcheAge is the absolute best PvE 'carebear' MMORPG I've ever played. With it's farming and housing and player run economy, it just blew every other MMO out of the water. Then they killed it!

As for Ashes of Creation, it just leaves me cold. All it seems to offer is more PvP gameplay that I have absolutely no interest in. It doesn't seem to have anything of interest for PvE carebears.

Time will tell of course, but for now, this game looks like it's made by a PvP player for other PvP players. Which is great, but not for me.

There is going to be a lot of stuff for Carebears to do, as long as they are willing to accept they may be thrown into PVP for some things.    If they are pure PVE players, then Ashes will not be the game for them.


As far as Archeage and Trion and who has the blame, the Trion Staff actually know very little about the game and the builds as they are coming out.   I have an entire video on all the things they screwed up about 4.5 and all the things "they've never seen in a build" or "never seen happen" that all magically happened on the 4.5 build that went live (which by the way was tested for exactly 0.0 days on the PTS)

Soybean

jahlon said:

Pesky said:

ArcheAge is the absolute best PvE 'carebear' MMORPG I've ever played. With it's farming and housing and player run economy, it just blew every other MMO out of the water. Then they killed it!

As for Ashes of Creation, it just leaves me cold. All it seems to offer is more PvP gameplay that I have absolutely no interest in. It doesn't seem to have anything of interest for PvE carebears.

Time will tell of course, but for now, this game looks like it's made by a PvP player for other PvP players. Which is great, but not for me.

There is going to be a lot of stuff for Carebears to do, as long as they are willing to accept they may be thrown into PVP for some things.    If they are pure PVE players, then Ashes will not be the game for them.


As far as Archeage and Trion and who has the blame, the Trion Staff actually know very little about the game and the builds as they are coming out.   I have an entire video on all the things they screwed up about 4.5 and all the things "they've never seen in a build" or "never seen happen" that all magically happened on the 4.5 build that went live (which by the way was tested for exactly 0.0 days on the PTS)

There lays the problem. PvP players don't want to do PvE stuff and PvE players don't want to engage in PvP. If there was something for both to do that did not inter fear with on another that would be ideal. However the pvp players would not be happy with that because they want to kill and steal from unwilling participants. Too much of that will kill the game. Just take a look at Albion online with the 10 man gank squads roaming around trying to rob one lone gatherer. A greatly decreased population means less victims and the pvper moves on to another game while the current game dies.

As far as Archeage, XLGames had the pay to win model already in place but certain things like the lock boxes, labor cost for coin purses and how much items were going to cost in the cash shop was within their control. Even something as so cheezy as the pumpkin and the Christmas box smashing event, instead of costing 1 labor to smash a box or pumpkin like it was in the Korean version, it was 100 -75 in the EU/NA version. Other issues like the horrible customer service, the banning of some people while bending the rules for whales, letting bots run rampant, allowing people to run mods like Arche buddy. Doing nothing about land grab programs. The constant mergers and then opening up of new servers, allowing transfers off those servers and then merging the servers, rinse and repeat. The lack of testing and the lying about how much they testing to make sure the content works. All of those thing were within the control of Trion.

I know I am preaching to the choir here, I just hate to see Ashes of creation go down that same path. However the way they are always throwing new things in the cash shop, even if they may not be pay to win, does not look good.

jahlon

Honestly, I don't see a problem with the Cosmetic cash shop, but it might be better if they spaced it out a little bit more.   

jahlon

OG_Zorvan said:

So, when Ashes of Creation is floundering a few months after launch, what will be the "next real evolution" for Ashes of Creation players?  Even better, what will you do when Archeage is still around when this one tanks? That's the only real beauty of Korean and Chinese mmos, they get passed around and "relaunched" a million times no matter how many times they die, while western mmos like AoC are pretty much one and done.

By the way, the PvP crowd have gotten one PvP mmo after another just to watch them die on the vine as they all go back to their mobas, "survival games", and Fortnite's. Just like raiders all cried they needed a game with "hardcore raids", which is why Wildstar was made, and then the raiders all ran away and Wildstar withered and died. Meanwhile, the mmos beloved by the "carebears" and "casuals" are still trucking along years later.

AoC is another lame game by another lame developer chasing a fickle minority that will burn through it in a few weeks, then toddle off bored to the games they really like to play, and not the ones they tell developers they supposedly want.

Also, I hope that website of yours isn't your main source of income. If it is, I can send you a couple dollars to buy you some ramen. You must be starving by now.

If and when Ashes tanks or is floundering a few months after launch, then I have no idea what is going to happen with the MMO industry.  I don't think Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria, or Crowfall is going to ignite the industry.

As far as Archeage, its about to be down to 3 NA Servers, one of which is Fresh start.  They are merging 5 servers into one, so that game clearly isn't healthy.

As far as the carebears/casuals not sure what your point is?  I know that casuals are the money for a major game.

And as far as my website, don't worry about me man, I do this as a hobby.

KiwiHype

jahlon said:

Theocritus said:

Wasn't Archeage supposed to be the revolutionary game? We saw how that worked out.

The game was great in the release build through 1.0.  Then from 1.0 to 2.9 it was ugh.   After 2.9 through 4.5 it was pain and pain and more pain.    Finally bailed in April of this year.

As far as how will Ashes pan out.  I'm pretty confident that the game will be solid.   Steven seems like he is very receptive to feedback.   He and I have talked one on one on a couple of occasions about issues and he is always willing to listen.  

The measuring stick you have for how good a game will be is a fragile one. Time will definitely tell in the meantime just because you make many video's flaming a game doesn't mean you have authoritative word and it is obvious to anyone that doesn't get triggered by the mere mention of ArcheAge that Trion have fought very hard to deliver ArcheAge in a way that will suit Western markets as much as possible - which will never be about pleasing everyone. That, no one will do.

I look forward to your video's and remembering these convo's when "that time" comes to pass.

jahlon

KiwiHype said:

The measuring stick you have for how good a game will be is a fragile one. Time will definitely tell in the meantime just because you make many video's flaming a game doesn't mean you have authoritative word and it is obvious to anyone that doesn't get triggered by the mere mention of ArcheAge that Trion have fought very hard to deliver ArcheAge in a way that will suit Western markets as much as possible - which will never be about pleasing everyone. That, no one will do.

I look forward to your video's and remembering these convo's when "that time" comes to pass.

I'm not actually sure if you are serious with your statement on Trion's intentions, however, as someone who played the game from Alpha through April of this year let me tell you that Trion hasn't' fought very hard to deliver Archeage in a way that will suit the Western market.  They have fought every hard to deliver Archeage in a way that is most profitable.

Without spending all night detailing all the things they screwed up, I'll give you the highlights.

1:  December 2017 they said after that patch went onto the live servers that they'd never push a patch to the live servers again unless the build they were pushing got a little testing time on the PTS.   Fast forward to April 2018 and the Fresh Start build that was sent out was never tested on the PTS.   There was a PTS build tested...but not the one that went live.

2:  The team made several very black and white statements about what does and does not occur in Archeage and what they have "never seen" in a build, yet magically the things that the Trion team was definitive on, turned out to be 100% incorrect.  

3:  Several things that they knew were broken were allowed to be broken and stay broken because it was easier and cheaper to keep them broken then it was to fix them.   


I don't blame Trion in that, however, they are just the publisher for North America.  They are basically the people who collect the money for XL that pass feedback along.   

But, bottom line Trion was never about making the game good, Trion was about making the game profitable at the expense of their players.   

Galadourn

Archeage... I tried to get into the game when it launched, was mercilessly repelled by the art style and gameplay. Oh well, it's not the first game with pretty graphics and abysmal design...

KiwiHype

jahlon said:

KiwiHype said:

The measuring stick you have for how good a game will be is a fragile one. Time will definitely tell in the meantime just because you make many video's flaming a game doesn't mean you have authoritative word and it is obvious to anyone that doesn't get triggered by the mere mention of ArcheAge that Trion have fought very hard to deliver ArcheAge in a way that will suit Western markets as much as possible - which will never be about pleasing everyone. That, no one will do.

I look forward to your video's and remembering these convo's when "that time" comes to pass.

I'm not actually sure if you are serious with your statement on Trion's intentions, however, as someone who played the game from Alpha through April of this year let me tell you that Trion hasn't' fought very hard to deliver Archeage in a way that will suit the Western market.  They have fought every hard to deliver Archeage in a way that is most profitable.

Without spending all night detailing all the things they screwed up, I'll give you the highlights.

1:  December 2017 they said after that patch went onto the live servers that they'd never push a patch to the live servers again unless the build they were pushing got a little testing time on the PTS.   Fast forward to April 2018 and the Fresh Start build that was sent out was never tested on the PTS.   There was a PTS build tested...but not the one that went live.

2:  The team made several very black and white statements about what does and does not occur in Archeage and what they have "never seen" in a build, yet magically the things that the Trion team was definitive on, turned out to be 100% incorrect.  

3:  Several things that they knew were broken were allowed to be broken and stay broken because it was easier and cheaper to keep them broken then it was to fix them.   


I don't blame Trion in that, however, they are just the publisher for North America.  They are basically the people who collect the money for XL that pass feedback along.   

But, bottom line Trion was never about making the game good, Trion was about making the game profitable at the expense of their players.   

Again, you are making yourself an authority where you aren't which is fine if you center your free time around making a name for yourself criticizing something you obviously also love or you wouldn't have spent so much time in it. You have some valid points, I mean you aren't the first nor will you be the last to visit whats gone wrong in a game to attract those clicks but as always you begin factual then go to an extreme like you think no one understands what's going on.

Businesses want to make money lets not be naive and who else do they make money off the person NOT playing? However the style of game ArcheAge is, how long it's been around and the amount of people I still see playing since Alpha to now paints a bigger picture than a youtube video clinging to the hope the next game they have their eye is THE one.

All this aside I'd like AoC to succeed and for XL to also finally give us a server many have hoped for. The more MMORPG's we have running successfully the better, so then we can complain about not having time to play them all instead of assumptions.

Raquis

Archeage is a very average game you can't compare it with Ashes of Creation if Ashes is like Archeage nobody would even bother!

Knytta

jahlon said:

There is going to be a lot of stuff for Carebears to do, as long as they are willing to accept they may be thrown into PVP for some things.    If they are pure PVE players, then Ashes will not be the game for them.

The problem is that the game was sold as a PVE game with PVP (It is debatable if people at all understood the PVP part during the Kickstarter). Anyway lets hope that we do not get a VERY expensive Worlds Adrift situation again with lots of people getting into a game that not at all is what they expected. Ashes is a Node Control PvP game with some interesting PVE features, lets hope it works out, personally I am skeptic.

Octagon7711

Pesky said:

ArcheAge is the absolute best PvE 'carebear' MMORPG I've ever played. With it's farming and housing and player run economy, it just blew every other MMO out of the water. Then they killed it!

As for Ashes of Creation, it just leaves me cold. All it seems to offer is more PvP gameplay that I have absolutely no interest in. It doesn't seem to have anything of interest for PvE carebears.

Time will tell of course, but for now, this game looks like it's made by a PvP player for other PvP players. Which is great, but not for me.

I agree, when I first saw the Devs talking about AA, I said that it had all great PvE qualities.  I learned PvE would be strangled at level 30 and I played anyway and had a good time and even leveled an alt to 30.  Then the next zone had PvP with a small PvE window.  All they had to do was have at least one series of PvE zones that took players to max level and I would have been playing a lot longer.  

Companies may listen to their customers but it's usually a closed circle.  Which explains why lots of changes are often needed when the masses come in after launch or the masses will move on leaving a smaller audience and the game may struggle to survive.  

rodarin

The biggest irony is these devs could kill this all with a few simple mechanics added to the game. Ones that have existed for years...

Have Pve safe maps and Pvp maps. Have 'hirelings' or guards you can rent (a la GW) and if they wanted to really get creative these mercenaries would have 'memories' and the more you used them (or paid them) the 'better' they got. And you could eventually maybe add new skills and or focus of skills to them (again like GW). Obviously that gets a little more difficult in an MMO than a co-op game but GW was what 15 years ago?

SO you have to run through a PvP map or two you hire 5 or 6 pimped out guards and off you go. Obviously wont beat a same size or even slightly smaller sized group of 'experienced' real life players but should be enough to beat 3 or 4 decent players and maybe more players who dont know what theyre doing. Or at least let you survive. It would certainly help with any lone or duo gankers who just like to watch games burn. SO while it isnt true 'PvP' but again another irony. "Real' PvPers shouldnt be out ganking solo or duo players doing PvE in the first place. Thats why there isnt really any "PvP" anymore anyway and why Mobas and these battle royal games have had such a huge success because it gives these social misfits almost everything they want. And all in the A.D.D. time frame that they function best at.

They can obviously have their 'typical' PvP siege and open world maps where its nothing but PvP, but those get stale after awhile. And if they wanted they can do the WoW clone thing and have their battleground maps also. Which were the original A.D,D, type maps that lasted 30 minutes or less but with respawns not one and done deaths. Which I am surprised hasnt been done in MMOs yet. 10-40 (or more for 'epic' battles per side maps with single life no respawns.

PvP has and never will work in open world PvP games, even games that cater to open world PvP have all failed no matter how 'good' they were. At best PvP should be a niche. Lotro ALMOST got it right but they were pretty short sighted in that aspect and ironically didnt give PvP enough attention. Especially the way they had it implemented with 'creeps' being a stand alone (only PvP playable) character model.

Every new game has the benefit of seeing what has almost worked, sort of worked and never worked. Problem is they are all myopic and think they can reinvent the wheel or think their game is THE game to make PvP and PvE work. But theyre all just kidding themselves at this point.

YashaX

When is this one due out? 2100?

Angreeegamer

YashaX said:

When is this one due out? 2100?

They went from this:



To this in just 1 year:



2020 is the likely release date year if they keep it up.

Dvora

DMKano said:

Azaron_Nightblade said:

blueturtle13 said:

jahlon said:

Trion FTW

Wrong. Trion is not the developer. Monetization is not their decision. 

They have a say big say in it however. Just look at some of the recent deals being made. Like AoC itself. The publisher they went with was the only one willing to go along with their standards of not making the game P2W.

So no, Trion is definitely not an innocent. I imagine they were both all too happy to make players spread those wallets wide.

Once ArcheAge has a "relaunch" subscription version without cash-shop P2W elements - who will get the credit, XL or Trion?

hmm.....

Is that really going to happen?

Dvora

Soybean said:

jahlon said:

Pesky said:

ArcheAge is the absolute best PvE 'carebear' MMORPG I've ever played. With it's farming and housing and player run economy, it just blew every other MMO out of the water. Then they killed it!

As for Ashes of Creation, it just leaves me cold. All it seems to offer is more PvP gameplay that I have absolutely no interest in. It doesn't seem to have anything of interest for PvE carebears.

Time will tell of course, but for now, this game looks like it's made by a PvP player for other PvP players. Which is great, but not for me.

There is going to be a lot of stuff for Carebears to do, as long as they are willing to accept they may be thrown into PVP for some things.    If they are pure PVE players, then Ashes will not be the game for them.


As far as Archeage and Trion and who has the blame, the Trion Staff actually know very little about the game and the builds as they are coming out.   I have an entire video on all the things they screwed up about 4.5 and all the things "they've never seen in a build" or "never seen happen" that all magically happened on the 4.5 build that went live (which by the way was tested for exactly 0.0 days on the PTS)

There lays the problem. PvP players don't want to do PvE stuff and PvE players don't want to engage in PvP. If there was something for both to do that did not inter fear with on another that would be ideal. However the pvp players would not be happy with that because they want to kill and steal from unwilling participants. Too much of that will kill the game. Just take a look at Albion online with the 10 man gank squads roaming around trying to rob one lone gatherer. A greatly decreased population means less victims and the pvper moves on to another game while the current game dies.

Thats a pretty blatantly untrue generalization.  There is a big percentage that likes both, and like me don't feel the game is complete and well rounded if it doesn't have both.  PVP consequences just have not been worked out well.  For me though faction based pvp is enough and easily done.  full FFA is harder by far, but still can be done.