that article points out invention Origins which came in issue 9 in 2007 the game released in 2004. So as I said for several years there what are only basic enhancements like single and dual Origins
And there were always prefered best in Slots for different encounters and Single were the most powerful easily ....
Numbers dont lie ..
One is always BiS
Relative Level
Training
Dual-Origin
Single-Origin and Special
–3
5.845
11.662
23.331
–2
6.680
13.328
26.664
–1
7.515
14.994
29.997
0
8.350
16.660
33.330
+1
8.768
17.493
34.997
+2
9.185
18.326
36.663
+3
9.603
19.159
38.330
And the effect they have on player skill/gear/enhancemnt, each dictate a BiS
One enhancement is best for something. Damage for damaged speed speed for Speed accuracy for accuracy. But there was no set that was best and the City of Heroes characters had multiple slots for enhancements. the Blaster having everything slotted for damage would give him the highest damage he would not be considered the best blaster.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If I designed games, I would require that Best of Slot in all categories would require mastery of all (or most) aspects of the game. Many (or most) slots would be for killing raid bosses. Some slots would be items awarded to master crafters. Some slots would be for really hard instanced solo encounters. Some slots would be for fully exploring the most dangerous places. And so on.
What would you require?
I would require the blood sacrifice of the person wearing it.
One enhancement is best for something. Damage for damaged speed speed for Speed accuracy for accuracy. But there was no set that was best and the City of Heroes characters had multiple slots for enhancements. the Blaster having everything slotted for damage would give him the highest damage he would not be considered the best blaster.
And yet said Blaster still had/desired the BiS enhancements for his role ...His goal was to achieve the Highest DPS as always for a DPS class , whichever set of Enhancements accomplished that would be BiS .. /period
You can never really avoid best in slot gear except by not having slots, not having gear, or by all gear for a given slot being the same.
See EVE, BIS is very situational, and can vary considerably on several levels.
Factors include player skill training, power reqs, cost vs expendibility for starters.
Range of fight, tracking speeds, opponent defense types, capacitor / CPU requirements per hull, damage types, small vs large fleets, tackle fit, disruption, micro warp fit, spider tanked, fleet boosts, wormhole type, PVE vs PVP, rig type and more.
When a FOTM build or item shows up CCP eventually rebalance changing the landscape.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So im still waiting for one of you 5 gentleman to offer us a reasonable and logical way to achieving a game with No BiS , no examples that do this have been given ....Im very curious as to how this could be achieved
Well, you could take the best gear statistically speaking but have it make the player appear to look the most ridiculous.
While I would have no issue wearing the "diaper of instant death" I think many vanity kings and queens would eschew it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So im still waiting for one of you 5 gentleman to offer us a reasonable and logical way to achieving a game with No BiS , no examples that do this have been given ....Im very curious as to how this could be achieved
Well, you could take the best gear statistically speaking but have it make the player appear to look the most ridiculous.
While I would have no issue wearing the "diaper of instant death" I think many vanity kings and queens would eschew it.
That makes me think of my Armsman early on DAOC , when my guild leader told me " You look like a pile of discarded soda cans "
was all different color plate , i was never one to give a shit what i look like , but it made me chuckle and dye some of it later ..
But ill add it was all BiS as i was leveling thru the Tiers of DAoC
Well, I can honestly say the OP's idea is very traditional MMO, make some BiS gear, and force people to farm content for it, which always ends with continual power creep getting put into the game, because the players that are willing to raid, master craft, and all that, will do it very quickly, chew though the content, get bored, and leave, and then you are left with a population of casuals that will look at the requirements, get overwhelmed and leave as well. So you will either dummy down the content to keep the casuals happy and make this once upon a time, really hard to get gear super easy, or you will be forced to pump out content to keep your more aggressive players running the hamster wheel.
At one time, GW2 had a great plan, where BiS gear was easy to get, and then it was all about look and image. Which was it's own progression. Then they went and added in Ascended which was High Level Dungeon or Master Crafted and then they added in Legendary which was Raid Locked.
And thus fell prey to the Generic MMO Hamster Wheel, and for me, that ruined the game, so.. I don't play GW2 for that reason anymore. I am sure people love it, as the game is still very popular and making good money.
Anyway, another game that had a fun solution was DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) where they used situational gear, like for example, Some mobs were Immune to Cold, and took extra Damage from Fire.. so you would not be using your Frost Burst Axe of Greater Freezing on them, even if it was your supposedly "Best Axe" you would now need to go get some Fire based axe, or at least something that was not Cold Base, so now you head out to farm something with an Acid, Lighting, Force, effect, or just weighted so it does more generic damage. In this way, there really was no BiS gear for the game, but there were items that were highly coveted, like for example, a Sword of Shadows was a highly sought after weapon as it had the best base DPS in the game, but, against some mobs it was a sub-par weapon to use, as other weapons had combos that made them more desirable, also, in that game, items had effects, like for example, you could boots that gave you Freedom of Movement, that allowed to keep your footing on slippery surfaces like Ice, Greased Floors, and other slick or slippery surfaces, so.. depending on the dungeon you may want those boots over the Rage inducing Madstone boots that give a great bonus to DPS. Then Standing Stone went and screwed with how these effects behaved, and since all these things were raid locked, or high level dungeons with rare chances, I quit, and pretty much killed any desire for me to ever raid or farm like that again. Breaking the Trust of a player when you have loot that is a 1% drop from a raid that I need to roll to get, and then you nerf it.. screw that.. and screw anyone else that expects me to do the same and trust they won't shaft me at a later date.
Anyway, while I understand that there needs to be a grind of some sort to keep players going after gear, without such a mechanic, they will simply get bored.
I think each game needs to find a good grove that works with their system, and play that out, there is no universal that can be applied to all games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I designed games, I would require that Best of Slot in all categories would require mastery of all (or most) aspects of the game. Many (or most) slots would be for killing raid bosses. Some slots would be items awarded to master crafters. Some slots would be for really hard instanced solo encounters. Some slots would be for fully exploring the most dangerous places. And so on.
What would you require?
I see you played FFXI and all you describe is in FFXI atm that's how you get BiS now.
So im still waiting for one of you 5 gentleman to offer us a reasonable and logical way to achieving a game with No BiS , no examples that do this have been given ....Im very curious as to how this could be achieved
I'll field this.
GW2, used Exotics, it was easy to get, and had various combos, all of which had their own names, which you could use to make a build that fit your fancy. There was no real BiS like they had in EQ, or other games where "All Cleric's need RMB's or you Suck!" type of deal, there was simply "best for your build" For example.
Someone playing a Guardian might want to run Berserker, Knights, or Assassin, depending on how they designed their build and how they play, but, none of them was any better then the other, they all gave the same number of stats, it was simply a matter of how you wanted to play.
Case in point, using Assassin and Berserker, they were both, Power, Precision, Critical. Just Assassin was Precision Prime and Berserker was Power Prime. Depending on what you wanted to do, you would pick the one that worked for you, but, neither was inherently better then the other, it was purely a matter of play style and what you wanted to accomplish. Just like, you could play a Shout Guard, or a Medi Guard, neither was really better, and again, what you picked was all about what you wanted to do. It was like various paths to the same end result.
Let me elaborate on that a bit more. Lets say, like you, you opted to start the game with a Shout Guard, which often is suggested to run Berserker trinkets, but I ran Assassin. My reasons where, I had a few abilities that triggered off Crits, so I wanted the higher crit rate, and understood that in doing so, I was going to lose some overall base power. But it was really just an alternate path to the same end result. Assassin and Berserk for the most part level out as far as DPS goes, so neither is BiS.
Now, we could argue that "Exotic" was BiS, but Exotic was also the only gear that was level 80. So it was the only level appropriate gear you could get, which is not the same as BiS as having BiS gear in the game requires that there is some kind of sub-par level appropriate gear that "other" players would need to content themselves with.
Case in point, when GW2 put out Ascended Gear, that was directly BiS gear, as Exotic was not equal to it, and thus Exotic became the "sub-par" level appropriate gear, allowing for BiS gear to exist in the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To date UO has Random Loot , but also has BiS items of course
Asherons Call had Random Loot but also had highly desirable BiS items ..
Project Gorgon has Random Loot but also has BiS items
And D&D online has random loot but also BiS items
SWG had Random Loot but still had BiS items
All these games either have one or both of the following either very rare Boss drops (named items that were still ) BIS or they still pull from a pool of stats and mods and there is still top numbers and combinations that make BiS ...Ill stress UO/AC/and D&D online all have rare named items that are more desirable and BiS items .. PG is still in an Alpha state and i wont comment on to much ..
ANd GW2 still also has BiS items , if you would like me to post its loot tables i will it becomes very obvious what would BIS to any class very fast .. Ascended Gear is the highest Tier and becomes BiS particularly after infusion .. And yes we are all also aware and have discussed situational encounter and class BIS , we are aware it also happens in GW2(as it does in every game back to UO) , regardless , there is stil always a a BIS for what it is you want to be/accomplish ..
I subscribe to the Asheron's Call mantra of gear. It should be random and anyone able to acquire. It's the ultimate Carrot on a stick to keep gamers involved and playing. I do not like having to Raid or any other things modern MMO's put up a wall to limit good gear.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
This is really not a very well thought out comment , would the OP or any that agree with this like to help out here , How do accomplish that .. Does everyone have the same wooden sword for the entire game ..
That game would die in about 12 hours .. maybe ..(but then of course the irony that the wooden sword would be BiS by default)
As has been pointed out , there will always be BiS or several versions but slightly differnet BiS swords for ex.. It has always been this way and always will ..
There will always be BiS for varying situations in any game ..
There will always be a BiS as a general weapon also ..
There will always be BiS for different lvls and tiers of gameplay (hence twinking and farming)
To remove BiS is to remove all gear ... sounds fun ? and then Fists would be BiS ..
I agree with Jean-Luc and this is why.
1) Best-In-Slot indicates "the one and only right to play." It "ass-u-mes" all players are the same. If they are, you need to rethink your MMORPG.
2) How to Accomplish: Simply don't design the game around these specific items. Personally, I'd like to see "stat gear" go away. I think of WoW when I see BiS. Are there other MMOs that utilize this? WoW makes gear unimportant (until the endgame) as it heaps upon players "magical gear" from day 1. You level so fast in WoW that you out level gear almost as soon as you put it on.
I realize that this is a "thing" that keeps players playing at endgame, but it's really just as silly as "daily quests" that try to keep playing logging in every day. Do you enjoy being told how to play your character?
I will say that "truly magical items" I like. The UNCOMMON finds that give a bonus in combat (+ to hit, + damage), not attribute/skill changing. I guess it's my tabletop RPG background showing through here
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
I dont know what you are going at with this direction of semantics , But no ,class of course (as each indvidual is actually playing a class ..true), There is a BIS item for every class for any encounter , Most good players have multiple sets of BIS gear for there class for any encounter they are preparing for .. ala any game you want to choose..
Tell ya what point me to the game that does NOT have BIS mechainics and or show me alogical way of building an MMORPG with combat that will not have BiS
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Well Kyleran there is both , and i know you aware of that as an Eve player ..
There games with BIS that Trump all
And games like Eve for ex.. that have BiS situational...
And imo there is little to no difference . in what you slot atm that is BIS .. its trivial wether its an item that Trumps all or an Item thats situational . its still BiS..
In UO for example i have dozens of different bows that are BIS for situations i usually have 4 with me , and have different armor and jewelery sets for different encounters , This week for ex my Guild is going to farm Osiredon , i know exactly what gear and weapons i will be bringing to handle that encounter and adds and yes it all BiS for that encounter,, Hoping a Small Soul Forge will drop for a guildie:)
Regardless as i said for every encounter in every game there is one or the other BiS ..
Situational gear is much more dynamic and interesting.
For instance in Destiny 2 there are myriad combinations of exotic gear with powerful perks that synergize well in certain circumstances. I realize most here aren't a fan of Destiny but it gets this itemization concept very right.
ESO does a good job with this too, having interesting choices in build/loadout just in gear sets; not even including skills/champion points.
But as has been pointed out there is still BiS for different encounters , this is not new and goes back to UO and earlier , i have i think 8 chests in my house with different Gear load outs for different encounters , and they are all BiS for said encounter .. Same with ESO and any other that works there gear in sets , and they are are Combinations of BiS sets that gave the best bounes for different encounters ..
So situational gear still presents BIS per encounter and some sets bleed over into others for conveinence BiS ..
Which also seems to be the way that Torchlight Frontier is building
Which is why I used the word singular BiS. [mod edit]
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Well Kyleran there is both , and i know you aware of that as an Eve player ..
There games with BIS that Trump all
And games like Eve for ex.. that have BiS situational...
And imo there is little to no difference . in what you slot atm that is BIS .. its trivial wether its an item that Trumps all or an Item thats situational . its still BiS..
In UO for example i have dozens of different bows that are BIS for situations i usually have 4 with me , and have different armor and jewelery sets for different encounters , This week for ex my Guild is going to farm Osiredon , i know exactly what gear and weapons i will be bringing to handle that encounter and adds and yes it all BiS for that encounter,, Hoping a Small Soul Forge will drop for a guildie:)
Regardless as i said for every encounter in every game there is one or the other BiS ..
Math always tells us the truth
I understand and agree with your premise, though as you know in EVE fitting for long range when the fight is close up makes a huge difference and vice versa.
Thing is in EVE good FCs take great care to not permit such situations and will call for strategic withdrawals until they can either bait the enemy into a situation favoring them (rarely happen) or a refit can be done as necessary.
So as you noted, likely everyone will be fighting with the BIS for the scenario more often than not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Well Kyleran there is both , and i know you aware of that as an Eve player ..
There games with BIS that Trump all
And games like Eve for ex.. that have BiS situational...
And imo there is little to no difference . in what you slot atm that is BIS .. its trivial wether its an item that Trumps all or an Item thats situational . its still BiS..
In UO for example i have dozens of different bows that are BIS for situations i usually have 4 with me , and have different armor and jewelery sets for different encounters , This week for ex my Guild is going to farm Osiredon , i know exactly what gear and weapons i will be bringing to handle that encounter and adds and yes it all BiS for that encounter,, Hoping a Small Soul Forge will drop for a guildie:)
Regardless as i said for every encounter in every game there is one or the other BiS ..
Math always tells us the truth
I understand and agree with your premise, though as you know in EVE fitting for long range when the fight is close up makes a huge difference and vice versa.
Thing is in EVE good FCs take great care to not permit such situations and will call for strategic withdrawals until they can either bait the enemy into a situation favoring them (rarely happen) or a refit can be done as necessary.
So as you noted, likely everyone will be fighting with the BIS for the scenario more often than not.
And i agree with Eve ive played it enough and am currently , and if you happen to find yourself in a fair fight in even it means someone fucked up.. But that does not change the fact that each party will go into X fight prepared with BiS for what the anticipate encountering .. If they are wrong they leave to change out or look for a more uneven encounter..
My point in this thread is only that this comment ...
"I'd prefer no best in slot items personally."
Is unatainable and holds no water in any game that will involve combat ..
The only current game i could come up with as no BIS is ATITD , but there is no combat , but one could also make the arguement that the top researched Techs are skills and BiS skills ala GW1
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Well Kyleran there is both , and i know you aware of that as an Eve player ..
There games with BIS that Trump all
And games like Eve for ex.. that have BiS situational...
And imo there is little to no difference . in what you slot atm that is BIS .. its trivial wether its an item that Trumps all or an Item thats situational . its still BiS..
In UO for example i have dozens of different bows that are BIS for situations i usually have 4 with me , and have different armor and jewelery sets for different encounters , This week for ex my Guild is going to farm Osiredon , i know exactly what gear and weapons i will be bringing to handle that encounter and adds and yes it all BiS for that encounter,, Hoping a Small Soul Forge will drop for a guildie:)
Regardless as i said for every encounter in every game there is one or the other BiS ..
Math always tells us the truth
I understand and agree with your premise, though as you know in EVE fitting for long range when the fight is close up makes a huge difference and vice versa.
Thing is in EVE good FCs take great care to not permit such situations and will call for strategic withdrawals until they can either bait the enemy into a situation favoring them (rarely happen) or a refit can be done as necessary.
So as you noted, likely everyone will be fighting with the BIS for the scenario more often than not.
And i agree with Eve ive played it enough and am currently , and if you happen to find yourself in a fair fight in even it means someone fucked up.. But that does not change the fact that each party will go into X fight prepared with BiS for what the anticipate encountering .. If they are wrong they leave to change out or look for a more uneven encounter..
My point in this thread is only that this comment ...
"I'd prefer no best in slot items personally."
Is unatainable and holds no water in any game that will involve combat
I can't speak for another's intent, but to me the comment was more about not having a singular BIS slot gear item which trumped anything else regardless of the situation.
I recall in vanilla WOW there was some sort of orange hammer or axe which dropped off of Ragnaros which was always given to the main tank.
Once obtained said warrior would almost always use that same item, even in PVP as it truly was BIS.
Later updates added resilance and other factors to make other weapons more situationally appropriate which is what I prefer and feel most games have these days.
Remember the WOW "carrot on a stick?" Not particularly hard to get or high level yet I'll bet most players kept it slotted as who wanted to give up the extra mount speed, even if only 3% (that math you always reference coming into play in such decisions.)
I think perhaps the only way to avoid really is to create multiple similar items obtained from other types of game play.
The carrot came from questing, forcing everyone to quest to get it. Add in a sugar cube of speed to PVP rewards and perhaps the gizmo of quicktime to gnome or goblin crafting, (perhaps being resellable) all pegged at 3%
Of course if you create a ring of rushing also at 3% you might invalidate the carrot completely as BIS, but now we are delving into situational utility I think.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It only had very basic enhancements for several years. The other enhancements, the really good ones didn't come for a while. And as stated above many would argue including me that they weren't considered best in slot because there are far too variable.
For quite a while it had only a single origin and dual origin. Later on it heroic origin and then IO then drops from raids like hamidon (think that's what it was called).
Regardless there was always still enhancements that were better than others and more desirable .. that makes them BiS .. If none were better , why have any different at all , why have them at all ..
There was a hard number tied to there effect .. Math dictates BiS , there is no escape..
Very obvious which enhancements are/were BiS for any PvE or PvP encounter ..
So unless we all want to be thrown in a Mudhole naked with no weapons/armor/skills then BiS is unavoidable...
waitaminute... So you're saying BiS for each individual player? I'm talking about BiS for a class, ala WoW.
He is actually going a step further and saying there is a best in slot for every specific situation which is true.
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
Well Kyleran there is both , and i know you aware of that as an Eve player ..
There games with BIS that Trump all
And games like Eve for ex.. that have BiS situational...
And imo there is little to no difference . in what you slot atm that is BIS .. its trivial wether its an item that Trumps all or an Item thats situational . its still BiS..
In UO for example i have dozens of different bows that are BIS for situations i usually have 4 with me , and have different armor and jewelery sets for different encounters , This week for ex my Guild is going to farm Osiredon , i know exactly what gear and weapons i will be bringing to handle that encounter and adds and yes it all BiS for that encounter,, Hoping a Small Soul Forge will drop for a guildie:)
Regardless as i said for every encounter in every game there is one or the other BiS ..
Math always tells us the truth
I understand and agree with your premise, though as you know in EVE fitting for long range when the fight is close up makes a huge difference and vice versa.
Thing is in EVE good FCs take great care to not permit such situations and will call for strategic withdrawals until they can either bait the enemy into a situation favoring them (rarely happen) or a refit can be done as necessary.
So as you noted, likely everyone will be fighting with the BIS for the scenario more often than not.
And i agree with Eve ive played it enough and am currently , and if you happen to find yourself in a fair fight in even it means someone fucked up.. But that does not change the fact that each party will go into X fight prepared with BiS for what the anticipate encountering .. If they are wrong they leave to change out or look for a more uneven encounter..
My point in this thread is only that this comment ...
"I'd prefer no best in slot items personally."
Is unatainable and holds no water in any game that will involve combat
I can't speak for another's intent, but to me the comment was more about not having a singular BIS slot gear item which trumped anything else regardless of the situation.
I recall in vanilla WOW there was some sort of orange hammer or axe which dropped off of Ragnaros which was always given to the main tank.
Once obtained said warrior would almost always use that same item, even in PVP as it truly was BIS.
Later updates added resilance and other factors to make other weapons more situationally appropriate which is what I prefer and feel most games have these days.
Remember the WOW "carrot on a stick?" Not particularly hard to get or high level yet I'll bet most players kept it slotted as who wanted to give up the extra mount speed, even if only 3% (that math you always reference coming into play in such decisions.)
But Kyleran imo as i stated in this thread very clearly ..There is little difference .. If there is 1 BiS sword that Trumps all .. Or 4 that are situational .. the comment
"I'd prefer no best in slot items personally." This comment stands by itself it has its own meaning and it is impossible and silly at best ..
Does not apply and does not hold water is impossible to attain in any way shape or form .. There will always be BiS ...
Comments
Level
and Special
Full loot PvP ftw.
Factors include player skill training, power reqs, cost vs expendibility for starters.
Range of fight, tracking speeds, opponent defense types, capacitor / CPU requirements per hull, damage types, small vs large fleets, tackle fit, disruption, micro warp fit, spider tanked, fleet boosts, wormhole type, PVE vs PVP, rig type and more.
When a FOTM build or item shows up CCP eventually rebalance changing the landscape.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While I would have no issue wearing the "diaper of instant death" I think many vanity kings and queens would eschew it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
At one time, GW2 had a great plan, where BiS gear was easy to get, and then it was all about look and image. Which was it's own progression. Then they went and added in Ascended which was High Level Dungeon or Master Crafted and then they added in Legendary which was Raid Locked.
And thus fell prey to the Generic MMO Hamster Wheel, and for me, that ruined the game, so.. I don't play GW2 for that reason anymore. I am sure people love it, as the game is still very popular and making good money.
Anyway, another game that had a fun solution was DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) where they used situational gear, like for example, Some mobs were Immune to Cold, and took extra Damage from Fire.. so you would not be using your Frost Burst Axe of Greater Freezing on them, even if it was your supposedly "Best Axe" you would now need to go get some Fire based axe, or at least something that was not Cold Base, so now you head out to farm something with an Acid, Lighting, Force, effect, or just weighted so it does more generic damage. In this way, there really was no BiS gear for the game, but there were items that were highly coveted, like for example, a Sword of Shadows was a highly sought after weapon as it had the best base DPS in the game, but, against some mobs it was a sub-par weapon to use, as other weapons had combos that made them more desirable, also, in that game, items had effects, like for example, you could boots that gave you Freedom of Movement, that allowed to keep your footing on slippery surfaces like Ice, Greased Floors, and other slick or slippery surfaces, so.. depending on the dungeon you may want those boots over the Rage inducing Madstone boots that give a great bonus to DPS. Then Standing Stone went and screwed with how these effects behaved, and since all these things were raid locked, or high level dungeons with rare chances, I quit, and pretty much killed any desire for me to ever raid or farm like that again. Breaking the Trust of a player when you have loot that is a 1% drop from a raid that I need to roll to get, and then you nerf it.. screw that.. and screw anyone else that expects me to do the same and trust they won't shaft me at a later date.
Anyway, while I understand that there needs to be a grind of some sort to keep players going after gear, without such a mechanic, they will simply get bored.
I think each game needs to find a good grove that works with their system, and play that out, there is no universal that can be applied to all games.
GW2, used Exotics, it was easy to get, and had various combos, all of which had their own names, which you could use to make a build that fit your fancy. There was no real BiS like they had in EQ, or other games where "All Cleric's need RMB's or you Suck!" type of deal, there was simply "best for your build" For example.
Someone playing a Guardian might want to run Berserker, Knights, or Assassin, depending on how they designed their build and how they play, but, none of them was any better then the other, they all gave the same number of stats, it was simply a matter of how you wanted to play.
Case in point, using Assassin and Berserker, they were both, Power, Precision, Critical. Just Assassin was Precision Prime and Berserker was Power Prime. Depending on what you wanted to do, you would pick the one that worked for you, but, neither was inherently better then the other, it was purely a matter of play style and what you wanted to accomplish. Just like, you could play a Shout Guard, or a Medi Guard, neither was really better, and again, what you picked was all about what you wanted to do. It was like various paths to the same end result.
Let me elaborate on that a bit more. Lets say, like you, you opted to start the game with a Shout Guard, which often is suggested to run Berserker trinkets, but I ran Assassin. My reasons where, I had a few abilities that triggered off Crits, so I wanted the higher crit rate, and understood that in doing so, I was going to lose some overall base power. But it was really just an alternate path to the same end result. Assassin and Berserk for the most part level out as far as DPS goes, so neither is BiS.
Now, we could argue that "Exotic" was BiS, but Exotic was also the only gear that was level 80. So it was the only level appropriate gear you could get, which is not the same as BiS as having BiS gear in the game requires that there is some kind of sub-par level appropriate gear that "other" players would need to content themselves with.
Case in point, when GW2 put out Ascended Gear, that was directly BiS gear, as Exotic was not equal to it, and thus Exotic became the "sub-par" level appropriate gear, allowing for BiS gear to exist in the game.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
1) Best-In-Slot indicates "the one and only right to play." It "ass-u-mes" all players are the same. If they are, you need to rethink your MMORPG.
2) How to Accomplish: Simply don't design the game around these specific items. Personally, I'd like to see "stat gear" go away. I think of WoW when I see BiS. Are there other MMOs that utilize this? WoW makes gear unimportant (until the endgame) as it heaps upon players "magical gear" from day 1. You level so fast in WoW that you out level gear almost as soon as you put it on.
I realize that this is a "thing" that keeps players playing at endgame, but it's really just as silly as "daily quests" that try to keep playing logging in every day. Do you enjoy being told how to play your character?
I will say that "truly magical items" I like. The UNCOMMON finds that give a bonus in combat (+ to hit, + damage), not attribute/skill changing. I guess it's my tabletop RPG background showing through here
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
There probably is an overall BIS as well which can be considered the best compromise if a player is eschewing gearing for the situation.
What I think the OP was referring to is BIS items which trump all other gear in any or all situations, regardless of class, circumstance or skills, and players feel compelled to strive for.
I've seen items like that, particularly in accessories, sometimes there is a ring or amulet which is si superior regardless of which player wears it, so every player wants one.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thing is in EVE good FCs take great care to not permit such situations and will call for strategic withdrawals until they can either bait the enemy into a situation favoring them (rarely happen) or a refit can be done as necessary.
So as you noted, likely everyone will be fighting with the BIS for the scenario more often than not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I recall in vanilla WOW there was some sort of orange hammer or axe which dropped off of Ragnaros which was always given to the main tank.
Once obtained said warrior would almost always use that same item, even in PVP as it truly was BIS.
Later updates added resilance and other factors to make other weapons more situationally appropriate which is what I prefer and feel most games have these days.
Remember the WOW "carrot on a stick?" Not particularly hard to get or high level yet I'll bet most players kept it slotted as who wanted to give up the extra mount speed, even if only 3% (that math you always reference coming into play in such decisions.)
I think perhaps the only way to avoid really is to create multiple similar items obtained from other types of game play.
The carrot came from questing, forcing everyone to quest to get it. Add in a sugar cube of speed to PVP rewards and perhaps the gizmo of quicktime to gnome or goblin crafting, (perhaps being resellable) all pegged at 3%
Of course if you create a ring of rushing also at 3% you might invalidate the carrot completely as BIS, but now we are delving into situational utility I think.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"I'd prefer no best in slot items personally." This comment stands by itself it has its own meaning and it is impossible and silly at best ..