Vast majority of sandbox MMOs aren't really a sandbox...where are the choices?

TheScavenger

In the real world, you go to a sandbox as a kid and you have rules and laws to follow. You can't kill someone without years and years in prison. You can't go to another kid and beat him up without severe consequences.

On top of that, sandbox MMOs advertise choice and freedom...but there is as much freedom as a themepark MMO. As in...none at all.

In a themepark MMO, you can't kill players except in delegated areas...this turns away a lot of PvPers...but everyone knows themepark MMOs offer least amount of choices possible

But in a sandbox MMO, you can be killed by anyone, turning away a lot of PVErs. The PVEr has no choice but to pvp, therefor the sandbox MMO has no choice for the PVEr

Why does a sandbox MMO need to be 100% PvP?

Why does a themepark MMO need to be 95 to 100% PVE?

Why is there no choices in either of them?

There is a reason PvPers rant on and on about needing PvP in a themepark MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PvP themepark MMO

There is a reason PvErs rant on and on about wanting PVE servers in a sandbox MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PVE sandbox MMO.

Look at Ark Survival, Conan Exiles, DayZ (though no one plays that anymore) as just some examples...they are all sandbox games, that give you a choice of PVE only, PvP only or a mix of both. They are true sandbox games, because you truly have freedom and choice to play how you want. 

So if some "simple" non-MMO survival games can offer more choices than an MMO...there is something seriously wrong with the MMO genre.

Albatroes

TheScavenger said:

In the real world, you go to a sandbox as a kid and you have rules and laws to follow. You can't kill someone without years and years in prison. You can't go to another kid and beat him up without severe consequences.

On top of that, sandbox MMOs advertise choice and freedom...but there is as much freedom as a themepark MMO. As in...none at all.

In a themepark MMO, you can't kill players except in delegated areas...this turns away a lot of PvPers...but everyone knows themepark MMOs offer least amount of choices possible

But in a sandbox MMO, you can be killed by anyone, turning away a lot of PVErs. The PVEr has no choice but to pvp, therefor the sandbox MMO has no choice for the PVEr

Why does a sandbox MMO need to be 100% PvP?

Why does a themepark MMO need to be 95 to 100% PVE?

Why is there no choices in either of them?

There is a reason PvPers rant on and on about needing PvP in a themepark MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PvP themepark MMO

There is a reason PvErs rant on and on about wanting PVE servers in a sandbox MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PVE sandbox MMO.

Look at Ark Survival, Conan Exiles, DayZ (though no one plays that anymore) as just some examples...they are all sandbox games, that give you a choice of PVE only, PvP only or a mix of both. They are true sandbox games, because you truly have freedom and choice to play how you want. 

So if some "simple" non-MMO survival games can offer more choices than an MMO...there is something seriously wrong with the MMO genre.

I'm a little confused when you get to the bottem saying a choice of PvE only, PvP only or a mix of both. Isn't that what different kinds of servers are for are am I missing something? Because it sounds like that's what you're describing with Ark/Conan/etc is that you can make PvE only/PvP only etc.

Quizzical

If you want to play a mostly PVE sandbox MMORPG, then go play one.  What's stopping you?  A Tale in the Desert has no combat at all.  Puzzle Pirates and Uncharted Waters Online both have open world PVP, but getting attacked by another player is rare.

TheScavenger

Albatroes said:

TheScavenger said:

In the real world, you go to a sandbox as a kid and you have rules and laws to follow. You can't kill someone without years and years in prison. You can't go to another kid and beat him up without severe consequences.

On top of that, sandbox MMOs advertise choice and freedom...but there is as much freedom as a themepark MMO. As in...none at all.

In a themepark MMO, you can't kill players except in delegated areas...this turns away a lot of PvPers...but everyone knows themepark MMOs offer least amount of choices possible

But in a sandbox MMO, you can be killed by anyone, turning away a lot of PVErs. The PVEr has no choice but to pvp, therefor the sandbox MMO has no choice for the PVEr

Why does a sandbox MMO need to be 100% PvP?

Why does a themepark MMO need to be 95 to 100% PVE?

Why is there no choices in either of them?

There is a reason PvPers rant on and on about needing PvP in a themepark MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PvP themepark MMO

There is a reason PvErs rant on and on about wanting PVE servers in a sandbox MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PVE sandbox MMO.

Look at Ark Survival, Conan Exiles, DayZ (though no one plays that anymore) as just some examples...they are all sandbox games, that give you a choice of PVE only, PvP only or a mix of both. They are true sandbox games, because you truly have freedom and choice to play how you want. 

So if some "simple" non-MMO survival games can offer more choices than an MMO...there is something seriously wrong with the MMO genre.

I'm a little confused when you get to the bottem saying a choice of PvE only, PvP only or a mix of both. Isn't that what different kinds of servers are for are am I missing something? Because it sounds like that's what you're describing with Ark/Conan/etc is that you can make PvE only/PvP only etc.

exactly. Sorry if I ranted and rambled a bit, on pain killers after a surgery so it makes posting a bit hard. I posted this cause ashes of creation and BDO both refuse to add PvE servers, but I also know many PvPers lack pvp themeparks MMOs as well.

But there are so many sandbox MMOs, and only Ryzom offers optional PvP. There is Ashes of Creation and they refuse to add PvE servers. There is black desert online, and its heavily requested to add PvE servers and they refuse to do so.

Or lets look at themeparks. Many offer a highly focused PvP environment and heavily focus on the PvE. The only MMO that is themepark that offers PvP is WoW with the world vs world pvp they introduced in BFA, which made a lot of PvPers happy.

So we have one single MMO (that is sorta newer/non-private server) that is sandbox for PvE sandbox fans (Ryzom)

And one sorta newer/non-private server themepark MMO that (at least tried) to cater to PvPers and adds a lot of content for them (WoW)

Mostly though themeparks/sandbox MMOs offer no choices.  And that goes back to Aurk/Conan etc...you can play PvE servers, or pvp servers...but the vast majority of MMOs don't allow this

TheScavenger

Quizzical said:

If you want to play a mostly PVE sandbox MMORPG, then go play one.  What's stopping you?  A Tale in the Desert has no combat at all.  Puzzle Pirates and Uncharted Waters Online both have open world PVP, but getting attacked by another player is rare.

A tale in the desert has no combat is the problem. That goes to the extreme "PvE" side of things, that even if it was a themepark I still wouldn't play it. That is super niche, and also really old. I believe its older than even WoW.

Also it doesn't have any choice for PvP as far as I know since there is no combat...which is exactly what this thread is about...survival games like Ark have more choices than MMOs. You even agree with me that pirates and uncharted waters offers no choices, even if encounters are rare.

Where as Ark/Conan etc and many other non-MMOs offer MORE choices than MMOs do in how one plays the game...that shows there is a huge problem with MMOs because they make how you play super limited and for a very focused playstyle unlike games in other genres that are evolving far past the MMO genre in player freedom/choices

And like I said in my above post...these companies aren't offering choices like Ark/Conan (amongst many others) did...they are refusing to cater to certain playstyles. Again that shows how stagnant the MMO genre is when other games are overtaking them in player choices and freedom.

Quizzical

If the goal is to have a choice in what you do, you're not going to find an MMORPG, sandbox or otherwise, that offers more varied choices than Uncharted Waters Online.

TheScavenger

Quizzical said:

If the goal is to have a choice in what you do, you're not going to find an MMORPG, sandbox or otherwise, that offers more varied choices than Uncharted Waters Online.

Well that sounds like worth checking out then. Once the pain meds wear off, I'll give it a look but I bookmarked the website.

thanks for recommending it

Albatroes

TheScavenger said:

Albatroes said:

TheScavenger said:

In the real world, you go to a sandbox as a kid and you have rules and laws to follow. You can't kill someone without years and years in prison. You can't go to another kid and beat him up without severe consequences.

On top of that, sandbox MMOs advertise choice and freedom...but there is as much freedom as a themepark MMO. As in...none at all.

In a themepark MMO, you can't kill players except in delegated areas...this turns away a lot of PvPers...but everyone knows themepark MMOs offer least amount of choices possible

But in a sandbox MMO, you can be killed by anyone, turning away a lot of PVErs. The PVEr has no choice but to pvp, therefor the sandbox MMO has no choice for the PVEr

Why does a sandbox MMO need to be 100% PvP?

Why does a themepark MMO need to be 95 to 100% PVE?

Why is there no choices in either of them?

There is a reason PvPers rant on and on about needing PvP in a themepark MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PvP themepark MMO

There is a reason PvErs rant on and on about wanting PVE servers in a sandbox MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PVE sandbox MMO.

Look at Ark Survival, Conan Exiles, DayZ (though no one plays that anymore) as just some examples...they are all sandbox games, that give you a choice of PVE only, PvP only or a mix of both. They are true sandbox games, because you truly have freedom and choice to play how you want. 

So if some "simple" non-MMO survival games can offer more choices than an MMO...there is something seriously wrong with the MMO genre.

I'm a little confused when you get to the bottem saying a choice of PvE only, PvP only or a mix of both. Isn't that what different kinds of servers are for are am I missing something? Because it sounds like that's what you're describing with Ark/Conan/etc is that you can make PvE only/PvP only etc.

exactly. Sorry if I ranted and rambled a bit, on pain killers after a surgery so it makes posting a bit hard. I posted this cause ashes of creation and BDO both refuse to add PvE servers, but I also know many PvPers lack pvp themeparks MMOs as well.

But there are so many sandbox MMOs, and only Ryzom offers optional PvP. There is Ashes of Creation and they refuse to add PvE servers. There is black desert online, and its heavily requested to add PvE servers and they refuse to do so.

Or lets look at themeparks. Many offer a highly focused PvP environment and heavily focus on the PvE. The only MMO that is themepark that offers PvP is WoW with the world vs world pvp they introduced in BFA, which made a lot of PvPers happy.

So we have one single MMO (that is sorta newer/non-private server) that is sandbox for PvE sandbox fans (Ryzom)

And one sorta newer/non-private server themepark MMO that (at least tried) to cater to PvPers and adds a lot of content for them (WoW)

Mostly though themeparks/sandbox MMOs offer no choices.  And that goes back to Aurk/Conan etc...you can play PvE servers, or pvp servers...but the vast majority of MMOs don't allow this

Eh, if I'm following those standards, I'd say Blade and Soul mostly fits that bill since pvp is optional both through instancing and open world. Other problems hinder it too much imo, which are its horrible optimization which people are hoping will be fixed when they 'upgrade' to UE4 someday and the p2w which is well known in that game. If you're doing open world pvp or battlegrounds, you're just gonna die unless you spend enough to buy a new benz to gear up your weapon and a couple of accessories/your soul. Their arena is pretty fair though which is based on skill but you go back to optimization issues, so its kind of down to 50% skill/50% luck oh who isn't lagging etc. That said, you dont have to pvp at all and still make progress, but you'll need friends imo in that game. Evildousharm tries to help new people through his youtube guides and his discord if people are seriously trying to play the game, but I dont know if its for everyone especially whenever the Trove event happens which is literally a buy gear at a discount event like ever quarter. Plus they've been lowering new player progression threw lower exp/gold gain from doing dailies which is one of the main ways to progress your characters. The Warden class event thing was alright but honestly if you got the weapon from it, it was just a trap because you'd have to deal with upgrade luck or legendary gem hammer luck to get sockets since the weapon only gives you 3 sockets. For the soul, its pretty amazing though for a new player but other than that, the event is also a grind taking a majority of the event time to even get the soul.

Quizzical

TheScavenger said:

Quizzical said:

If the goal is to have a choice in what you do, you're not going to find an MMORPG, sandbox or otherwise, that offers more varied choices than Uncharted Waters Online.

Well that sounds like worth checking out then. Once the pain meds wear off, I'll give it a look but I bookmarked the website.

thanks for recommending it

You should be warned that Uncharted Waters Online is a confusing game because there's a ton of stuff to do.  Even if you're accustomed to skipping tutorials, do all of the tutorials for UWO--both all three game spheres (adventuring, trade, and maritime) and all three levels (beginner, intermediate, and advanced).  You may want to play for a while to level up between the tutorial levels, but do get to them eventually.  The game completely ignores a lot of conventions to do things differently.  If you've ever played a Koei game before, you have some idea of how complicated they're willing to make things, but UWO takes this further than most even by their standards.

You should also be aware that there is a ton of important stuff not introduced in the tutorial, as the game didn't want to start with a few dozen hours of tutorial.  If you play for a month, then even after that, there will probably be major game mechanics that you're not even aware of, but could have participated in almost from the start.  That happens because there's a ton of stuff to do in the game.

UWO was originally released in Japan in 2005, and has had many years of development steadily adding new content and new game mechanics since then.  Unlike a lot of theme park MMORPGs, new content doesn't deprecate the old.  It just adds more options of things that you could do if you want to.  If you want to do everything that there is to do in the game, it will take you at minimum several years.

When I played, the publisher was pretty much trying to make the game pay to win.   And mostly failing at it, as the game mechanics are remarkably resilient against that.  It's a different publisher now, but the stuff in the item mall will probably still look pay to win if you don't understand the game.  In most games with combat, something that gave you +50% damage would be enormously unbalancing.  In UWO, it basically merits a shrug, as it would hardly ever change the outcome of combat.

While much of the oceans have free for all PVP with a limited ability to loot the cargo or personal items of players, piracy is harshly punished by game mechanics to the extent that few people will attack you.  For someone not already labeled a pirate to attack you will almost never happen.  Furthermore, if you're being cautious and trying not to get killed, it's nearly impossible for other players to catch you, even if they're much higher level than you.  Players who get sunk or pillaged are generally not paying attention, which includes possible bots.

Scorchien

TheScavenger said:

Albatroes said:

TheScavenger said:

In the real world, you go to a sandbox as a kid and you have rules and laws to follow. You can't kill someone without years and years in prison. You can't go to another kid and beat him up without severe consequences.

On top of that, sandbox MMOs advertise choice and freedom...but there is as much freedom as a themepark MMO. As in...none at all.

In a themepark MMO, you can't kill players except in delegated areas...this turns away a lot of PvPers...but everyone knows themepark MMOs offer least amount of choices possible

But in a sandbox MMO, you can be killed by anyone, turning away a lot of PVErs. The PVEr has no choice but to pvp, therefor the sandbox MMO has no choice for the PVEr

Why does a sandbox MMO need to be 100% PvP?

Why does a themepark MMO need to be 95 to 100% PVE?

Why is there no choices in either of them?

There is a reason PvPers rant on and on about needing PvP in a themepark MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PvP themepark MMO

There is a reason PvErs rant on and on about wanting PVE servers in a sandbox MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PVE sandbox MMO.

Look at Ark Survival, Conan Exiles, DayZ (though no one plays that anymore) as just some examples...they are all sandbox games, that give you a choice of PVE only, PvP only or a mix of both. They are true sandbox games, because you truly have freedom and choice to play how you want. 

So if some "simple" non-MMO survival games can offer more choices than an MMO...there is something seriously wrong with the MMO genre.

I'm a little confused when you get to the bottem saying a choice of PvE only, PvP only or a mix of both. Isn't that what different kinds of servers are for are am I missing something? Because it sounds like that's what you're describing with Ark/Conan/etc is that you can make PvE only/PvP only etc.

exactly. Sorry if I ranted and rambled a bit, on pain killers after a surgery so it makes posting a bit hard. I posted this cause ashes of creation and BDO both refuse to add PvE servers, but I also know many PvPers lack pvp themeparks MMOs as well.

But there are so many sandbox MMOs, and only Ryzom offers optional PvP. There is Ashes of Creation and they refuse to add PvE servers. There is black desert online, and its heavily requested to add PvE servers and they refuse to do so.

Or lets look at themeparks. Many offer a highly focused PvP environment and heavily focus on the PvE. The only MMO that is themepark that offers PvP is WoW with the world vs world pvp they introduced in BFA, which made a lot of PvPers happy.

So we have one single MMO (that is sorta newer/non-private server) that is sandbox for PvE sandbox fans (Ryzom)

And one sorta newer/non-private server themepark MMO that (at least tried) to cater to PvPers and adds a lot of content for them (WoW)

Mostly though themeparks/sandbox MMOs offer no choices.  And that goes back to Aurk/Conan etc...you can play PvE servers, or pvp servers...but the vast majority of MMOs don't allow this

Well UO actually has optional PVP also ..just stay in Trammel

   The upcoming game altho still very early (Arcfall) will have optional PvP with a flagging system ...

Renoaku

Nope "Arche Age" was the last best game I played before being ruined by Trion Worlds, Gloria Victis is decent I think but the game crashes using multi monitor and tabbing out so who knows at the moment it's really just Crow Fall & Ashes.

Kyleran

OP continues to ignore suggestion made to him several years ago

WURM Online PVE server.

Myri316

TheScavenger said:

In the real world, you go to a sandbox as a kid and you have rules and laws to follow. You can't kill someone without years and years in prison. You can't go to another kid and beat him up without severe consequences.

On top of that, sandbox MMOs advertise choice and freedom...but there is as much freedom as a themepark MMO. As in...none at all.

In a themepark MMO, you can't kill players except in delegated areas...this turns away a lot of PvPers...but everyone knows themepark MMOs offer least amount of choices possible

But in a sandbox MMO, you can be killed by anyone, turning away a lot of PVErs. The PVEr has no choice but to pvp, therefor the sandbox MMO has no choice for the PVEr

Why does a sandbox MMO need to be 100% PvP?

Why does a themepark MMO need to be 95 to 100% PVE?

Why is there no choices in either of them?

There is a reason PvPers rant on and on about needing PvP in a themepark MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PvP themepark MMO

There is a reason PvErs rant on and on about wanting PVE servers in a sandbox MMO...because they literally have no choices for a PVE sandbox MMO.

Look at Ark Survival, Conan Exiles, DayZ (though no one plays that anymore) as just some examples...they are all sandbox games, that give you a choice of PVE only, PvP only or a mix of both. They are true sandbox games, because you truly have freedom and choice to play how you want. 

So if some "simple" non-MMO survival games can offer more choices than an MMO...there is something seriously wrong with the MMO genre.

You can try Fractured on December it doesnt has the Ganking Features of Albion Online, nor it forces you to enter a Guild, you can progress through the game while Solo,

https://fracturedmmo.com/?refcode=4ad74a25f75a

I took sometime reading and looking info on it and its better than most of the Diablo Typo games coming out.

Amathe

Kyleran said:

OP continues to ignore suggestion made to him several years ago

WURM Online PVE server.

Not a bad suggestion.