6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
If you're playing with people who know how to play their class, outside of barking a few orders now and again there should be no social chatting going on.
That was my main gripe with EQ. You had to be social as the combat was so insipid you'd be bored rigid otherwise.
Socialising should be done in taverns/cantinas like the real world, not during combat.
Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way). As social interactivity increases so does the divide. Social interaction wasn't meant to be a buffet. Social interaction is meant to be sought out, found, maintained, and easily closed out.
The overall issue stated above has bled into games. Folks don't have issues PLAYING with other people, it's the unnecessary interaction they wish to avoid. The population in console/PC games are even more skewed into polar opposites. I feel people don't want to be required to "make friends" to relax and play a video game. I think the best thing a game could do is remove all forms of shout chat, focus on accepted/declined area/vicinity interaction and provide players the tools to create their own relationships, and social groups if they desire them. Player grouping should be based on tasks, and challenges in game. Groups should form organically without relying on party systems
*Player A wishes to communicate *Player B accepts "Hey I like how you play, want to work together for a bit?" "Sure"
or
*Player Troll Name wishes to communicate *Player B declines Player B has to take into consideration their behavior and how it affects their ability to communicate with others.
I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA I don't want to care about anybody else beyond the immediate tasks at hand unless I WANT to, not as a requirement. Games should be a place where we all escape the bull$#!% not continue it. THAT's how you make connections and learn about other people outside of your bubble, having a common task/cause without preconceived notions.
I don't want to see racist meme screen names, or offensive guild names. I don't want to hear your opinions, or know about your personal life in discord. I don't want to see your political opinion in your avatar picture. I don't want to have troll wars in general chat/LFG/Trade/Nation/Region as none of those shout style mediums are necessary to kill the f#$%ing dragon, chop down trees, or trade goods. Save that stuff for the outside world as it burns down around us.
TL;DR
Read what the f#$% I wrote. Game developers have to start refactoring player interaction from the ground up.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Well the community of UO is older player where there are no younger player plays UO anymore also people tend to be more civil as they get older. Brand new MMO community the players age range are from 4 years old to 60 years old, combined them together you get toxic relations it takes time to evolve it to a mature community.
3. Auction Houses...even if you do have to buy from others there is no personal interaction.
Auction Houses Why AHs? OK you are a crafter and make things. Without an AH how do you sell it? What used to happen? People spamed chat over and over again. And even with a trade channel text scrolled so quickly that reading anything was basically impossible. Making trade all but impossible.
Could there be some other way? Maybe have players flag what they want to say perhaps and allow people to hire an assistant to go and check for what you want in a given radius - assuming you know what you want of course. Then the assistant comes back with with a report and you travel to the seller maybe to find it sold hours earlier?
Given the anger that seems to be directed at games without AHs I suspect they are here to stay. Not having one as a means to increase social interaction creates, I suggest, more frustration and issues than benefits.
The quality and civility of our online interactions have been declining outside of MMOs. Maybe MMOs are a reflection of that mood and mindset.
I think around here we tend to over estimate the importance of game mechanics and under estimate the greater prevalent social media environment whenever we talk about how much better these MMO communities were 19 - 15 years ago.
Social media wasn't even a phrase we used back then and now MMO interpersonal relationships are just one type of social media interaction and a very small and minor one at that.
Hard to believe it is the players. My son makes tons of friends on online games. Almost none on MMOs except Warframe if that counts as one. Arc he has tons of friends. ESO... nada.
It's a combination of things but IMO the biggest factor by far is that for a lot of us in those early MMO days the social interaction in them was close to 100% of our online social interaction. It was cool and a new thing to be in a guild with people from Switzerland and Australia and all parts of NA. When I played Asheron's Call that was still a bit of a novelty.
These days MMO social interactions are what? 10%... 5% of our online social interactions?
It's not so much the kind of people (although that is also a factor since these games are more mainstream now so the communities are not nearly as tightly knit by a shared niche interest as they used to be) as it is the relative lack of importance of the interaction with others in MMOs in the overall online social interaction scheme.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Community was the core of the original MMO. Servers were small towns where you could run into the same people all the time and you needed each other to advance in all way. People tend to be nicer when they others in all things.
My reasons why MMORPG communities suck now
1. Gameplay more solo focused than not.
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
3. Auction Houses...even if you do have to buy from others there is no personal interaction.
4. Destination rather than journey....every new MMO that comes out the first to max gets there in like 2 days at most. Speaks for itself. When they journey is going to take forever anyway you tend to stop and smell the roses more. This gives community a chance to flourish.
5. Megaservers/phasing.....when you never see the same person twice outside of your guild how on Earth can a sense of community be possible? I used to make friends all the time in early MMORPG's, it was near impossible not to because they were social games above all else.
6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
The solo focus is a wrong reason, both UO and AC1 where very solo friendly, yet had great tight knit communities.
I think the solo focused is different than solo friendly. UO for example had solo friendly combat but that was not the sole focus of the game. Most MMO are solo focused in content until end game which most players don't even do.
5. Megaservers/phasing.....when you never see the same person twice outside of your guild how on Earth can a sense of community be possible? I used to make friends all the time in early MMORPG's, it was near impossible not to because they were social games above all else.
Megaservers/phasing Even before the advent of such tech - even in the very early days - you wouldn't necessarily see the same people. 1,000, 2k, 5k ... its a lot of people. And the downside of old tech is that they didn't handle churn well - churn as in people leaving. And before the servers died the guilds died - or typically merged with other shrinking guilds. And then the servers merged.
Megaservers are the solution to a problem - churn - not the problem itself. (Phasing is something else).
For me the key is in your comment about guilds. The obvious: make guilds easy to create, easy to join. The kicker: make it positively beneficial to be in a guild. Maybe give an xp bonus, a big xp bonus, as a minimum, vendor discounts - whatever it takes. Whilst you cannot force people to be in a guild you can make it as close to mandatory as possible.
And then what the devs could do is clump specific guilds together; every single day. Maybe get guilds to flag those they are affiliated with but with no promises. It won't be perfect and as guilds die out they will have to be replaced by others but use guilds to create a sense of continuity. (Yes you could try this with individuals and friends list but using guilds would make it simpler to do.)
4. Destination rather than journey....every new MMO that comes out the first to max gets there in like 2 days at most. Speaks for itself. When they journey is going to take forever anyway you tend to stop and smell the roses more. This gives community a chance to flourish.
Yep. It will always exist of course but don't disagree. Arguably one of the advantages of games that don't have a mandatory sub - which has always encouraged the "cram everything into 30 days" mentality. (And yes shorter sub periods exist!).
Mature games may also have an advantage. Games in which there is so much content that its impossible to "rush to the end". LotR, EQ1, ESO for example. Also an argument for games having "scaling" ....... but there are many who don't like that idea either.
A, Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way).
B, I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA ...
A, probably not true at all. Most likely a bell curve where a good amount of people are social and moral to some degree (what slide rule can you really measure this on?). And logically? Probably just a small amount of extremely HIGH IQ people who are so logical that nothing else matters. Otherwise, most people can look at a situation and use some "logical street smarts" to get the lay of the land. Not sure where you pulled this from.
B, Your view of the world and its history must be VERY small if you think the current climate in the world is so significantly different from eras past. Also I seem to remember history having some pretty bleak and horrid times where slavery was ok, War was usually the preferred option and that the rights of the people weren't really much to talk about.
I think we are marginally better now. That's just how the world does it, we make things "marginally better" as we march forward in time.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A, Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way).
B, I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA ...
A, probably not true at all. Most likely a bell curve where a good amount of people are social and moral to some degree (what slide rule can you really measure this on?). And logically? Probably just a small amount of extremely HIGH IQ people who are so logical that nothing else matters. Otherwise, most people can look at a situation and use some "logical street smarts" to get the lay of the land. Not sure where you pulled this from.
B, Your view of the world and its history must be VERY small if you think the current climate in the world is so significantly different from eras past. Also I seem to remember history having some pretty bleak and horrid times where slavery was ok, War was usually the preferred option and that the rights of the people weren't really much to talk about.
I think we are marginally better now. That's just how the world does it, we make things "marginally better" as we march forward in time.
I think everyone thinks their generation or another generation is destroying society no matter what they do.
Community was the core of the original MMO. Servers were small towns where you could run into the same people all the time and you needed each other to advance in all way. People tend to be nicer when they others in all things.
My reasons why MMORPG communities suck now
1. Gameplay more solo focused than not.
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
3. Auction Houses...even if you do have to buy from others there is no personal interaction.
4. Destination rather than journey....every new MMO that comes out the first to max gets there in like 2 days at most. Speaks for itself. When they journey is going to take forever anyway you tend to stop and smell the roses more. This gives community a chance to flourish.
5. Megaservers/phasing.....when you never see the same person twice outside of your guild how on Earth can a sense of community be possible? I used to make friends all the time in early MMORPG's, it was near impossible not to because they were social games above all else.
6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
The solo focus is a wrong reason, both UO and AC1 where very solo friendly, yet had great tight knit communities.
I think the solo focused is different than solo friendly. UO for example had solo friendly combat but that was not the sole focus of the game. Most MMO are solo focused in content until end game which most players don't even do.
How exactly do you think people get a few hundred or a few thousand hours in themepark games if it only take a few hours to reach max level.
Community was the core of the original MMO. Servers were small towns where you could run into the same people all the time and you needed each other to advance in all way. People tend to be nicer when they others in all things.
My reasons why MMORPG communities suck now
1. Gameplay more solo focused than not.
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
3. Auction Houses...even if you do have to buy from others there is no personal interaction.
4. Destination rather than journey....every new MMO that comes out the first to max gets there in like 2 days at most. Speaks for itself. When they journey is going to take forever anyway you tend to stop and smell the roses more. This gives community a chance to flourish.
5. Megaservers/phasing.....when you never see the same person twice outside of your guild how on Earth can a sense of community be possible? I used to make friends all the time in early MMORPG's, it was near impossible not to because they were social games above all else.
6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
The solo focus is a wrong reason, both UO and AC1 where very solo friendly, yet had great tight knit communities.
I think the solo focused is different than solo friendly. UO for example had solo friendly combat but that was not the sole focus of the game. Most MMO are solo focused in content until end game which most players don't even do.
How exactly do you think people get a few hundred or a few thousand hours in themepark games if it only take a few hours to reach max level.
Never said they did. Just the games are solo focused til end game. Playing a single player story mode online is not the same as being able to win in combat solo.
Its as much a design issue as anything else , all theses games anymore are built to cater to Casual Solo player , and its smart business , as that is the largest gaming Demographic.. Hence GW2,ESO,SWTOR BDO etc ...
Back in the day being social in an MMO was expected since that was the idea they were designed around, living out another life in a virtual space and adventuring with others. When I first started playing SWG some people referred to it as a 3D Star Wars chat room. It was a pretty chatty game. These days people use global for chat and talk less in local and its more about the solo adventure where other players happen to share the same space with you. You can occasionally group up with them for aspects of the game that require it, or play it by yourself without ever having to talk to anyone.
Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way). As social interactivity increases so does the divide. Social interaction wasn't meant to be a buffet. Social interaction is meant to be sought out, found, maintained, and easily closed out.
The overall issue stated above has bled into games. Folks don't have issues PLAYING with other people, it's the unnecessary interaction they wish to avoid. The population in console/PC games are even more skewed into polar opposites. I feel people don't want to be required to "make friends" to relax and play a video game. I think the best thing a game could do is remove all forms of shout chat, focus on accepted/declined area/vicinity interaction and provide players the tools to create their own relationships, and social groups if they desire them. Player grouping should be based on tasks, and challenges in game. Groups should form organically without relying on party systems
*Player A wishes to communicate *Player B accepts "Hey I like how you play, want to work together for a bit?" "Sure"
or
*Player Troll Name wishes to communicate *Player B declines Player B has to take into consideration their behavior and how it affects their ability to communicate with others.
I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA I don't want to care about anybody else beyond the immediate tasks at hand unless I WANT to, not as a requirement. Games should be a place where we all escape the bull$#!% not continue it. THAT's how you make connections and learn about other people outside of your bubble, having a common task/cause without preconceived notions.
I don't want to see racist meme screen names, or offensive guild names. I don't want to hear your opinions, or know about your personal life in discord. I don't want to see your political opinion in your avatar picture. I don't want to have troll wars in general chat/LFG/Trade/Nation/Region as none of those shout style mediums are necessary to kill the f#$%ing dragon, chop down trees, or trade goods. Save that stuff for the outside world as it burns down around us.
TL;DR
Read what the f#$% I wrote. Game developers have to start refactoring player interaction from the ground up.
Had to laugh at this - Pantheon is literally using EQ1 vanilla as a blueprint.
Not that this is a bad thing - just when you replicate the gameplay of EQ1 from 19 years ago - that's not exactly doing something differently, is it?
Yes but there are no direct competition and no modern (or maybe more modern) game in that field either. If it will be successful remains to see but at least it's not survival, sandbox PvP.
In my opinion, the number of players that think MMORPGs are to be won or beaten far outnumber the players who enjoy long journeys.
The number of people who just want to get to a destination in real life far outnumber those who enjoy a long journey.
Are we there yet?
I disagree, their are a large number of both. Problem is games are small giving no choice and all are finished with the content quickly. Key word is no choice.
I'm not so sure, anymore. It seems people want everything now. College grads expect to be hired as CEOs, not mailroom clerks, even though all their competition also have college degrees. "Experience" is ignored by this new workforce.
With technology as it is now, instant gratification is the expected norm, not a special thing, anymore. "2-Day shipping? Too long of a wait! I need it this afternoon!" Planes have made long distance travel almost easy. Fast food joints abound and make money hand over fist. Microwave meals are too convenient. 24 hour convenience stores are in almost every neighborhood.
No, I think it's a rare bird that plans ahead more than a couple of days, that enjoys window shopping or just a walk in the park. Even rarer these days are those who can totally unplug from "the net" (appropriately named catching device) for more than 3 hours at a time. (How many here just shuddered a little bit?)
This is just my own observations and I'm sure others have seen differently
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Community was the core of the original MMO. Servers were small towns where you could run into the same people all the time and you needed each other to advance in all way. People tend to be nicer when they others in all things.
My reasons why MMORPG communities suck now
1. Gameplay more solo focused than not.
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
3. Auction Houses...even if you do have to buy from others there is no personal interaction.
4. Destination rather than journey....every new MMO that comes out the first to max gets there in like 2 days at most. Speaks for itself. When they journey is going to take forever anyway you tend to stop and smell the roses more. This gives community a chance to flourish.
5. Megaservers/phasing.....when you never see the same person twice outside of your guild how on Earth can a sense of community be possible? I used to make friends all the time in early MMORPG's, it was near impossible not to because they were social games above all else.
6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
The solo focus is a wrong reason, both UO and AC1 where very solo friendly, yet had great tight knit communities.
I would argue there is a difference between being solo friendly and solo focused.
6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
If you're playing with people who know how to play their class, outside of barking a few orders now and again there should be no social chatting going on.
That was my main gripe with EQ. You had to be social as the combat was so insipid you'd be bored rigid otherwise.
Socialising should be done in taverns/cantinas like the real world, not during combat.
No CC coordination at all huh? Are you mind readers? I am not talking just being social, but actually having to communicate things and coordinate.
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
It's not so grim.... humans wont last forever. Time destroys all.
It will get better, we just won't the around to see it
One can find peace in knowing that humanity's stain will be erased eventually
I always laugh at the "We're destroying the earth!" doom & gloomers. We couldn't destroy it if we launched all our nukes at once. The Earth has survived a hell of a lot more than we piddly humans can dish out (Mountains being born and dieing, magma flowing freely, ice ages and scorching heat that rendered the surface unlivable, volcanoes galore). What those doom & gloomers are really worried about is their own precious skins
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
Don't see this.
So someone can create a jack-of-all trades and spend the time needed to learn the 6 or whatever number of crafts.
Guess what that someone would have done 5 or 10 years ago - or today in e.g. LotR. Clue: if there are 6 professions they create 6 characters ......
It wasn't that easy to become a high level crafter for end game in one trade, let alone all of them. I would throw this in the too easy category as well. Crafting nowadays can be maxed out in hours, in old school MMO's they required as much dedication as getting to max level on your toon. Trades actually mattered then and took effort to max out. Even the most casual player can max out all trades on one account in today's MMOs.
Comments
So someone can create a jack-of-all trades and spend the time needed to learn the 6 or whatever number of crafts.
Guess what that someone would have done 5 or 10 years ago - or today in e.g. LotR. Clue: if there are 6 professions they create 6 characters ......
The overall issue stated above has bled into games. Folks don't have issues PLAYING with other people, it's the unnecessary interaction they wish to avoid. The population in console/PC games are even more skewed into polar opposites. I feel people don't want to be required to "make friends" to relax and play a video game. I think the best thing a game could do is remove all forms of shout chat, focus on accepted/declined area/vicinity interaction and provide players the tools to create their own relationships, and social groups if they desire them. Player grouping should be based on tasks, and challenges in game. Groups should form organically without relying on party systems
*Player A wishes to communicate
*Player B accepts
"Hey I like how you play, want to work together for a bit?"
"Sure"
or
*Player Troll Name wishes to communicate
*Player B declines
Player B has to take into consideration their behavior and how it affects their ability to communicate with others.
I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA I don't want to care about anybody else beyond the immediate tasks at hand unless I WANT to, not as a requirement. Games should be a place where we all escape the bull$#!% not continue it. THAT's how you make connections and learn about other people outside of your bubble, having a common task/cause without preconceived notions.
I don't want to see racist meme screen names, or offensive guild names. I don't want to hear your opinions, or know about your personal life in discord. I don't want to see your political opinion in your avatar picture. I don't want to have troll wars in general chat/LFG/Trade/Nation/Region as none of those shout style mediums are necessary to kill the f#$%ing dragon, chop down trees, or trade goods. Save that stuff for the outside world as it burns down around us.
TL;DR
Read what the f#$% I wrote. Game developers have to start refactoring player interaction from the ground up.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Why AHs? OK you are a crafter and make things. Without an AH how do you sell it? What used to happen? People spamed chat over and over again. And even with a trade channel text scrolled so quickly that reading anything was basically impossible. Making trade all but impossible.
Could there be some other way? Maybe have players flag what they want to say perhaps and allow people to hire an assistant to go and check for what you want in a given radius - assuming you know what you want of course. Then the assistant comes back with with a report and you travel to the seller maybe to find it sold hours earlier?
Given the anger that seems to be directed at games without AHs I suspect they are here to stay. Not having one as a means to increase social interaction creates, I suggest, more frustration and issues than benefits.
These days MMO social interactions are what? 10%... 5% of our online social interactions?
It's not so much the kind of people (although that is also a factor since these games are more mainstream now so the communities are not nearly as tightly knit by a shared niche interest as they used to be) as it is the relative lack of importance of the interaction with others in MMOs in the overall online social interaction scheme.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Megaservers/phasing
Even before the advent of such tech - even in the very early days - you wouldn't necessarily see the same people. 1,000, 2k, 5k ... its a lot of people. And the downside of old tech is that they didn't handle churn well - churn as in people leaving. And before the servers died the guilds died - or typically merged with other shrinking guilds. And then the servers merged.
Megaservers are the solution to a problem - churn - not the problem itself. (Phasing is something else).
For me the key is in your comment about guilds. The obvious: make guilds easy to create, easy to join. The kicker: make it positively beneficial to be in a guild. Maybe give an xp bonus, a big xp bonus, as a minimum, vendor discounts - whatever it takes. Whilst you cannot force people to be in a guild you can make it as close to mandatory as possible.
And then what the devs could do is clump specific guilds together; every single day. Maybe get guilds to flag those they are affiliated with but with no promises. It won't be perfect and as guilds die out they will have to be replaced by others but use guilds to create a sense of continuity. (Yes you could try this with individuals and friends list but using guilds would make it simpler to do.)
Mature games may also have an advantage. Games in which there is so much content that its impossible to "rush to the end". LotR, EQ1, ESO for example. Also an argument for games having "scaling" ....... but there are many who don't like that idea either.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Aloha Mr Hand !
Aloha Mr Hand !
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
With technology as it is now, instant gratification is the expected norm, not a special thing, anymore. "2-Day shipping? Too long of a wait! I need it this afternoon!" Planes have made long distance travel almost easy. Fast food joints abound and make money hand over fist. Microwave meals are too convenient. 24 hour convenience stores are in almost every neighborhood.
No, I think it's a rare bird that plans ahead more than a couple of days, that enjoys window shopping or just a walk in the park. Even rarer these days are those who can totally unplug from "the net" (appropriately named catching device) for more than 3 hours at a time. (How many here just shuddered a little bit?)
This is just my own observations and I'm sure others have seen differently
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
No CC coordination at all huh? Are you mind readers? I am not talking just being social, but actually having to communicate things and coordinate.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It wasn't that easy to become a high level crafter for end game in one trade, let alone all of them. I would throw this in the too easy category as well. Crafting nowadays can be maxed out in hours, in old school MMO's they required as much dedication as getting to max level on your toon. Trades actually mattered then and took effort to max out. Even the most casual player can max out all trades on one account in today's MMOs.