This came out in 2002 and literally MMOs haven't changed at all

TheScavenger

I'm just starting the FFXI trial...and its no different than themepark MMOs in 2018. At least as far as AI goes

FFXI does the same exact mob pinatas that WoW does in 2018 where mobs stand around waiting to be popped open...like every other themepark MMO

WTF? Literally FFXI is no different PVE/gameplay wise than WoW in 2018, except WoW looks better

The only MMO to actually advance MMO AI was Tabula Rasa. One can argue even Ryzom does AI differently, but that I feel is a lot more scripted than "natural" AI

but again...WTF? I'm playing it and its like I'm playing WoW and WoW came out many years later. I'm playing FFXI and its not even really any different than LOTRO that I'm subbed to. WTF? Why is a 2002 MMO the same as MMOs in 2018? Why has the genre literally not advanced (as far as themepark MMOs go, but AI in general for MMOs) since 2002? Why for PVE do we still get pinatas and not what Tabula Rasa was doing with actual AI?

Literally playing FFXI feels no different than any themepark MMO I've played in 2018...that is how sad the MMO genre is for PVErs

lahnmir

Wizardy incoming in 1......2........3..........

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

Panther2103

FFXI is quite a bit different than WoW on so many levels. Sure the base gameplay loop is a bit similar as they are themeparks. But FFXI is group based mob grinding, with almost no emphasis on questing, and more emphasis on camping a mob spawn as a group. I don't know what game you are playing, but unless they changed it completely recently it's extremely archaic compared to modern day MMO's. In almost every way. But it does have it's share of really cool classes and content, as well as being able to raise a chocobo. 

Laughing-man

WoW came out in 2004, FFXI Came out in 2002.
FFXI is essentially based off of an EverQuest backbone.
WoW was literally trying to reinvent EverQuest.

There is a reason they are similar, however they are very very different.

BadSpock

By that logic, you can include Everquest in '99, UO in '97... 

It's not about developers not wanting better AI, it's about the limits of technology and internet connection speeds.

Games with advanced AI are not massively multiplayer for a reason kiddo!

TheScavenger

BadSpock said:

By that logic, you can include Everquest in '99, UO in '97... 

It's not about developers not wanting better AI, it's about the limits of technology and internet connection speeds.

Games with advanced AI are not massively multiplayer for a reason kiddo!

and people wonder why the MMO genre is so stagnant and getting worse

This is it

Sovrath

BadSpock said:

By that logic, you can include Everquest in '99, UO in '97... 

It's not about developers not wanting better AI, it's about the limits of technology and internet connection speeds.

Games with advanced AI are not massively multiplayer for a reason kiddo!

Though I think they easily could add better ai. the real issue is that it's very easy to program ai that will beat a player. These games are not made to beat the player, they are made so the player can beat them.

I remember an interview with a developer regarding "ai." that was the gist of it.

TheScavenger

Sovrath said:

BadSpock said:

By that logic, you can include Everquest in '99, UO in '97... 

It's not about developers not wanting better AI, it's about the limits of technology and internet connection speeds.

Games with advanced AI are not massively multiplayer for a reason kiddo!

Though I think they easily could add better ai. the real issue is that it's very easy to program ai that will beat a player. These games are not made to beat the player, they are made so the player can beat them.

I remember an interview with a developer regarding "ai." that was the gist of it.

yeah, I remember that. The developer said if they made AI actually good, it would have two problems I remember he said

1. If it was as good as the player (or maybe acted like the player) then they'd say the AI was cheating
2. The player would complain the AI is too hard to beat, and the game wouldn't be very popular because how hard it would be

But I still think they can make AI that actually is good and does stuff...besides stand around like pinatas. 

Ryzom AI isn't unbeatable, but they have migrating herds, animals come up to you to examine you, they interact with you, carnivores and herbivores attack each other. herbivores group up against said carnivores to defend each other

Tabular Rasa ai was more like FPS AI...AI would try to attack at different angles, grouped with each other to attack the player and would use actual tactics. It wasn't unbeatable though, but it was good AI

Laughing-man

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

TheScavenger

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Laughing-man

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Gotcha, Sorry it's just the way you said it in the first post it was like.

Hey WoW has bad AI, so I went to play FFXI, their AI is also bad, what gives?

Made me go and think "Well, 11 is older than WoW, and it was trying to be old school while WoW was trying to be revolutionary."

I see what you mean though, have you played Black Desert, Tera, or any of the action mmos?

TheScavenger

Laughing-man said:

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Gotcha, Sorry it's just the way you said it in the first post it was like.

Hey WoW has bad AI, so I went to play FFXI, their AI is also bad, what gives?

Made me go and think "Well, 11 is older than WoW, and it was trying to be old school while WoW was trying to be revolutionary."

I see what you mean though, have you played Black Desert, Tera, or any of the action mmos?

Well, BDO AI is pretty basic. Combat is advanced (and probably most fun combat system I've encountered in an MMO) so I give it that...but the game is really about PvP. The AI still stands around waiting to be killed and the AI is super easy to kill. They don't really do tactics or manuevers like they did in tabula rasa. Nor do they act like a real "creature" would act like in ryzom.

Haven't played Tera though, the erin (I think that is the name, its the creepy kid looking race that people make look creepier with disgusting armor) made me not play.

Kyleran

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

MadFrenchie

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

I didn't remember Tabula Rasa having ground-breaking AI.  It had a pretty cool system of random attack spawns at bases and such that players could help defend against, but the individual AI didn't seem any more advance than any other shooter iirc.

It was a cool game that released completely unfinished.

TheScavenger

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

The same can be said for every deathmatch PvP MMO to ever come out. None of them except EVE have seen success...so...does that mean they should stop being developed? Doesn't really have anything to do with them being pvp deathmatch MMOs, but in how bad quality they tend to be. Doesn't really relate at all.

Plus many MMOs and games of all genres fail. There are a ton of horror games that are just bad...but doesn't mean games with horror need to stop being developed. Like warhammer online failed...does that mean there should never be a warhammer MMO again?

So with that...just cause Tabula Rasa failed and Ryzom is pretty much dead...doesn't really mean anything as far as AI goes or anything else. Means as much as all the failed PvP MMOs or whatever failed MMO one can use as an example. 

TheScavenger

t0nyd said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

all that proves is that AI isn't everything. You can have a bad game with good AI. You can have a good game with bad ai. What we want is a good game with good AI. Tabula rasa wasn't a good game, having good AI doesn't change that.


Most superhero movies were horrible and really didn't make much money so why did Marvel continue making movies? According to your logic Spider-Man should have never been made. The original tablets were failures so why do tablets exist now?

My post right after yours I guess made a second too late. But both our responses pretty much the same lol. But yeah this sums it up shorter.

Akulas

FFXI copied EQ1. WoW copied EQ2. That's pretty much the difference.

TheScavenger

Akulas said:

FFXI copied EQ1. WoW copied EQ2. That's pretty much the difference.

Actually, WoW just took EQ1 and made it their own. EQ2 just came out at a bad time. neither MMO really copied each other, but WoW did take a lot of ideas from EQ1 and EQ2 was obviously based on EQ1. EQ2/WoW aren't very similar even back in vanilla WoW days, but far more similar to both is EQ1

Kinda hard to copy something when you release literally at the same time and have roughly the same development path. Unless SOE was sharing trade secrets (but then why would they sabotage their own game?) with Blizzard during both development processes or there was something illegal going on...and if there was that been found out by now after so many years. I'm sure SOE wouldn't have let anything illegal pass on by or give blizzard access to EQ2 for them to copy it cause that be self destructing their own game+company.  At best, Blizzard strategically planned the release of WoW before EQ2 was out. But I'm not so sure they knew the success they would have had after WoW was first released.

Otherwise it been impossible for WoW to know what EQ2 was going to be like until the day SOE showed it off and let people play it, and WOW would have then need to have completely redesigned the game just to be like EQ2 since they were already far into development (which took 4-5 years roughly for Blizzard to make WoW). And back then, Blizzard took a long time to develop games...which means the release been A LOT longer if they wanted to just copy EQ2 and redesign their game, by time EQ2 was shown off and at a playable state

More likely WoW took EQ1, and then made it more casual friendly and accessible to gamers. Which EQ2 did as well as that is far more accessible than EQ1 was, so there is similarities there.

But WoW (and obviously EQ2) both definitely took a lot of inspiration from EQ1 that is for sure. And both went down a more casual path to attract more casual gamers...except WoW won on that front by a landslide.

EQ2 should have delayed their release, but then again...I don't think anyone, even blizzard would have known how many people would play WoW and pretty much change the MMO genre. So SOE got really unlucky with the release window there.

Albatroes

Well...this is definitely an interesting take. I guess I'll collect some information before I respond to all of this....opinion. When did you start playing XI? and what level did you get up to? Were you playing on some private server or the live game, since they are considerably different from each other.

Theocritus

Akulas said:

FFXI copied EQ1. WoW copied EQ2. That's pretty much the difference.

WoW didnt copy EQ2...It released like 2 months ahead and was very rushed...WoW had been in development for years....It looks like what WoW did was take EQ1 and dumbed it down and sped it up.

Kyleran

t0nyd said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

all that proves is that AI isn't everything. You can have a bad game with good AI. You can have a good game with bad ai. What we want is a good game with good AI. Tabula rasa wasn't a good game, having good AI doesn't change that.


Most superhero movies were horrible and really didn't make much money so why did Marvel continue making movies? According to your logic Spider-Man should have never been made. The original tablets were failures so why do tablets exist now?

Err, check your box office history,  the huge financial success of Superman movies in the 70s and 80s followed by Batman movies in the 80s and 90s is what drove Marvel to continue trying until they got it right.

Kyleran

TheScavenger said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Laughing-man said:

Well, why would you expect an older game to have more advanced and varied AI?
That's my confusion.

Exactly. Why does an MMO from 2002 have the same exact AI most themepark MMOs have in 2018? Why hasn't any MMO evolved past "AI" standing around loot pinatas?

Tabula Rasa and Ryzom both show(ed) that there can be more to MMO AI than loot pinatas waiting to be popped open.

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

The same can be said for every deathmatch PvP MMO to ever come out. None of them except EVE have seen success...so...does that mean they should stop being developed? Doesn't really have anything to do with them being pvp deathmatch MMOs, but in how bad quality they tend to be. Doesn't really relate at all.

Plus many MMOs and games of all genres fail. There are a ton of horror games that are just bad...but doesn't mean games with horror need to stop being developed. Like warhammer online failed...does that mean there should never be a warhammer MMO again?

So with that...just cause Tabula Rasa failed and Ryzom is pretty much dead...doesn't really mean anything as far as AI goes or anything else. Means as much as all the failed PvP MMOs or whatever failed MMO one can use as an example. 

If the only MMO games with an advanced AI failed financially it doesn't matter why they actually failed, people who invest money won't be convinced such a feature is worth backing.

Laughing-man

TheScavenger said:

Well, BDO AI is pretty basic. Combat is advanced (and probably most fun combat system I've encountered in an MMO) so I give it that...but the game is really about PvP. The AI still stands around waiting to be killed and the AI is super easy to kill. They don't really do tactics or manuevers like they did in tabula rasa. Nor do they act like a real "creature" would act like in ryzom.

Haven't played Tera though, the erin (I think that is the name, its the creepy kid looking race that people make look creepier with disgusting armor) made me not play.

Elin, yeah I've heard that complaint before. My point in asking was that tab target games by design have very simple AI when it comes to movement and positioning. FPS MMOs and Action MMOs have enemy AI that's more complicated specifically with movement positioning and strategies they employ. 

I think that Tab Target games will probably always have AI that doesn't move a whole lot, they will probably increase the strategy in dealing with buffs and debuffs and timing, like how old school RPGs did, if they're going to increase the difficulty at all AI wise.

Meanwhile, Destiny 2's monster AI is better than Destiny 1. Warframe's AI keeps getting better, Black Desert has pretty decent monster AI, and TERA and Neverwinter ect. 

I think the game type you're looking for is more of an actiony MMO in my opinion.

RemyVorender

The death knell of MMOs was David Georgeson laughing with hubris as he unvieled EQ:Next. It was the genre's last hope, and it crapped its pants. The end. 

Robsolf

MadFrenchie said:

Kyleran said:

Ask yourself, how well did either of those games do financially? 

Now you have your answer as to why more advanced AI wasn't developed over the years. 

I didn't remember Tabula Rasa having ground-breaking AI.  It had a pretty cool system of random attack spawns at bases and such that players could help defend against, but the individual AI didn't seem any more advance than any other shooter iirc.

It was a cool game that released completely unfinished.

Agree.  But I think there were SOME things.  I remember a squad of mobs would beam down and stick around a mob or item(?) that would apply a heavy shield, and you'd have to run through the shield to do real damage, which, interestingly, was a thing you could do...

But I've seen that in other MMO's.  LotRO, STO being a couple that instantly come to mind.  The effect may have looked different, but it was there.

Alot of cool things in TR.  If ALL the budget had gone into making the game as it was released, it may have survived.

Kumapon

You playing the modern version or the old pre-abyssea version ?

Modern FFxi is so watered down and easy now. So it feels just like Modern WOW.